22 Messages From Creationists To People Who Believe In Evolution - page 19.

FalconFly

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Quote from: BitChick on February 19, 2014, 12:40:06 PM

Micro-evolution is observable. I believe in "micro-evolution" or otherwise known as adaptation.

Here is a video that shows the amazing "well documented" human evolution fossils from NOVA which is basically the shaving down of a fossil to make it "fit" the idea of how humans probably evolved. A creationist would never get away with shaving down a fossil to make it fit their belief. I am not sure why evolutionist are allowed to. This is supposed to be good "science" BTW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_U9SCyWw4w Another video worth a watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef8aAfWbpjc

There, you did it again.

If you believe something, you know nothing about it. Either you know or you don't (and hopefully assign realistic probabilities to achieve at least a maximum confidence corridor when basing decisions on these).
When it comes to reality, stop believing and replace it with knowledge. I know it's hard work but that's the only way.

Peter Lambert

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It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye

Quote from: ?? on ??

Another good one:

Quote

What mechanism has science discovered that evidences an increase of genetic information seen in any genetic mutation or evolutionary process?

It seems plausible that random mutations do occasionally write some "successful" new code in DNA, which is spread because the organism makes copies of itself. Evolution is correct as far as the physics is concerned, but it could also be correct in a world filled with qualia-deprived philosophical zombies where information does not exist and beings only 'live' due to the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

If you understand biochemistry and molecular biology and related subjects, all these criticisms of evolution sound absurd.

There is a well-established process for increasing the size and diversity of the genome. Quite simply, DNA copying is an imperfect copying process, such that at random intervals there is a chance that the copy is imperfect. Such imperfections include cutting out portions of code, duplicating portions of code, or switching individual code elements. Sometimes the changes do not affect the organism, sometimes they are beneficial, sometimes they are detrimental.

Also remember that not all of the genetic code is operative; there are large sections of our genes which apparently do nothing. So changes can happen slowly to that section, then if another part changes to start executing that code it will make a big change in the organism.

RodeoX

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People "believe" in God, they "understand" evolution.

hilariousandco

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Quote from: BitChick on February 19, 2014, 02:10:59 PM

Quote from: hilariousandco on February 19, 2014, 02:03:00 PM

Quote from: BitChick on February 19, 2014, 01:56:14 PM

Quote from: hilariousandco on February 19, 2014, 01:45:51 PM

How do I take it up with him? If I ask I wont get any answers. Just silence which already speaks loud and clear. Do you not think all these answers are just excuses though? Where do all these answers come from? The bible or has god told you these personally? I'm sure you've just had these answers drilled into you by someone. I was raised a Catholic and went to all Catholic schools, but once you start to think for yourself it quickly becomes apparent that there's not a single piece of evidence for any gods whatsoever.

"Hearing God" is another entire discussion. I admit that in my own life there have been many times when it felt like God was not there or not listening. But I can tell you that if you sincerely keep asking He will respond. He has made Himself know to me in many ways (reading the Bible, prayer, using others around me) but it is a spiritual journey. I will pray that you will hear begin to hear Him more clearly though.

Please don't waste your time on me. I never heard or felt him in the first place, I was just told he existed and I believed it because that's what naive children do. I also like the phrase one pair of hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer, so go do something useful or altruistic instead.

Ah. But James 5:16 says that the prayers of a righteous person are powerful and effective. I guess this will be more of a test of how "righteous" I am then you are then. Wink

As for your point that you have moved beyond being a "naive" child, we have to come to faith like a "naive" child really. The world around us thinks that they are just smarter than God. It really is just pride and pride is considered the most dangerous sins of all, probably because with it no one will ever even come to God. Why would they? They think they know more than God and do not need Him. Although we all need Him. Some just won't realize that until it is too late.

If there was a god I wouldn't think I was smarter than him/her/it, and I don't think anyone would, but I guess by default I'm smarter than something that doesn't exist to me. I'd also say we don't need him and some wont realise that until the end.

Gimpeline

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Quote from: BitChick on February 19, 2014, 02:10:59 PM

Quote from: hilariousandco on February 19, 2014, 02:03:00 PM

Quote from: BitChick on February 19, 2014, 01:56:14 PM

Quote from: hilariousandco on February 19, 2014, 01:45:51 PM

How do I take it up with him? If I ask I wont get any answers. Just silence which already speaks loud and clear. Do you not think all these answers are just excuses though? Where do all these answers come from? The bible or has god told you these personally? I'm sure you've just had these answers drilled into you by someone. I was raised a Catholic and went to all Catholic schools, but once you start to think for yourself it quickly becomes apparent that there's not a single piece of evidence for any gods whatsoever.

"Hearing God" is another entire discussion. I admit that in my own life there have been many times when it felt like God was not there or not listening. But I can tell you that if you sincerely keep asking He will respond. He has made Himself know to me in many ways (reading the Bible, prayer, using others around me) but it is a spiritual journey. I will pray that you will hear begin to hear Him more clearly though.

Please don't waste your time on me. I never heard or felt him in the first place, I was just told he existed and I believed it because that's what naive children do. I also like the phrase one pair of hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer, so go do something useful or altruistic instead.

x
Ah. But James 5:16 says that the prayers of a righteous person are powerful and effective. I guess this will be more of a test of how "righteous" I am then you are then. Wink

As for your point that you have moved beyond being a "naive" child, we have to come to faith like a "naive" child really. The world around us thinks that they are just smarter than God. It really is just pride and pride is considered the most dangerous sins of all, probably because with it no one will ever even come to God. Why would they? They think they know more than God and do not need Him. Although we all need Him. Some just won't realize that until it is too late.

An old book is never a proof of anything, so quoting the bible will get you nowhere. It was written in a time when our brains were less developed and most people halisounated from too much mushrooms on a daily basis

BitChick

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Quote from: hilariousandco on February 19, 2014, 02:03:00 PM

Quote from: BitChick on February 19, 2014, 01:56:14 PM

Quote from: hilariousandco on February 19, 2014, 01:45:51 PM

How do I take it up with him? If I ask I wont get any answers. Just silence which already speaks loud and clear. Do you not think all these answers are just excuses though? Where do all these answers come from? The bible or has god told you these personally? I'm sure you've just had these answers drilled into you by someone. I was raised a Catholic and went to all Catholic schools, but once you start to think for yourself it quickly becomes apparent that there's not a single piece of evidence for any gods whatsoever.

"Hearing God" is another entire discussion. I admit that in my own life there have been many times when it felt like God was not there or not listening. But I can tell you that if you sincerely keep asking He will respond. He has made Himself know to me in many ways (reading the Bible, prayer, using others around me) but it is a spiritual journey. I will pray that you will hear begin to hear Him more clearly though.

Please don't waste your time on me. I never heard or felt him in the first place, I was just told he existed and I believed it because that's what naive children do. I also like the phrase one pair of hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer, so go do something useful or altruistic instead.

Ah. But James 5:16 says that the prayers of a righteous person are powerful and effective. I guess this will be more of a test of how "righteous" I am then you are then. Wink

As for your point that you have moved beyond being a "naive" child, we have to come to faith like a "naive" child really. The world around us thinks that they are just smarter than God. It really is just pride and pride is considered the most dangerous sins of all, probably because with it no one will ever even come to God. Why would they? They think they know more than God and do not need Him. Although we all need Him. Some just won't realize that until it is too late.

hilariousandco

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Quote from: BitChick on February 19, 2014, 01:56:14 PM

Quote from: hilariousandco on February 19, 2014, 01:45:51 PM

How do I take it up with him? If I ask I wont get any answers. Just silence which already speaks loud and clear. Do you not think all these answers are just excuses though? Where do all these answers come from? The bible or has god told you these personally? I'm sure you've just had these answers drilled into you by someone. I was raised a Catholic and went to all Catholic schools, but once you start to think for yourself it quickly becomes apparent that there's not a single piece of evidence for any gods whatsoever.

"Hearing God" is another entire discussion. I admit that in my own life there have been many times when it felt like God was not there or not listening. But I can tell you that if you sincerely keep asking He will respond. He has made Himself know to me in many ways (reading the Bible, prayer, using others around me) but it is a spiritual journey. I will pray that you will hear begin to hear Him more clearly though.

Please don't waste your time on me. I never heard or felt him in the first place, I was just told he existed and I believed it because that's what naive children do. I also like the phrase one pair of hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer, so go do something useful or altruistic instead.

BitChick

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Quote from: hilariousandco on February 19, 2014, 01:45:51 PM

How do I take it up with him? If I ask I wont get any answers. Just silence which already speaks loud and clear. Do you not think all these answers are just excuses though? Where do all these answers come from? The bible or has god told you these personally? I'm sure you've just had these answers drilled into you by someone. I was raised a Catholic and went to all Catholic schools, but once you start to think for yourself it quickly becomes apparent that there's not a single piece of evidence for any gods whatsoever.

"Hearing God" is another entire discussion. I admit that in my own life there have been many times when it felt like God was not there or not listening. But I can tell you that if you sincerely keep asking He will respond. He has made Himself know to me in many ways (reading the Bible, prayer, using others around me) but it is a spiritual journey. I will pray that you will hear begin to hear Him more clearly though.

pedrog

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Quote from: FalconFly on February 19, 2014, 10:58:37 AM

Quote from: pedrog on February 18, 2014, 08:42:10 PM

Quote from: FalconFly on February 18, 2014, 06:41:28 PM

Also, many don't seem to be aware what little genetic evolution is required to result in rather drastic differences. It takes only 1% generic difference to have two entirely different (genetically/mating incompatible species) that just share similarities upon closer inspection. It's the difference between a small ape and a fully developed human. Add 1% more difference (more advanced genome than ours) and one can only speculate what kind of massive intelligence potential such a lifeform could have compared to us. Take it a step further and allow for a full 10% difference in advanced genome, these levels would simply be way beyond our current comprehension. Einstein, Hawking, Tesla and alikes would be like mentally handicapped cockroaches compared to that.

I understand what you're saying, but in evolution there's no advancement, only change and adaptation, we are not superior or more advanced than a cockroach, we are different, and our intelligence may be an evolutionary disadvantage because we have the power to extinguish ourselves and cockroaches will still be here.

*ugh* what ?
Evolution = Advancement over time, where the term "advancement" also equals ability of survival in a dynamic environment (genetic fitness)

If you seriously think that were not more advanced than a cockroach, then you should revisit school (or get some education from scientists/teachers in general)
While I agree on the intelligence also having certain downsides, that is simply how life works : potentials and risks.
And while we're able to do great harm, our ability to adapt (in ways a cockroach could never do) also ensures our potantial for survival as a species, even after a full-blown global thermonuclear war. Nature doesn't care if 7 Billion humans live on the planet's surface or 50 Million survivors live a mile deep underground.

No, it's change over time, and only individuals with some characteristics survive.

You can dispute what I said by saying the complexity of organisms increases over time and this can be interpreted as advancement, but natural selection doesn't care for complexity.

And I don't think we're more advanced than any other animal or plant, we're just different, we have different capabilities.

The anthropocentric view is very common even amongst scientists and teachers, we all like to feel special.

hilariousandco

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Quote from: BitChick on February 19, 2014, 01:33:57 PM

Quote from: hilariousandco on February 19, 2014, 01:14:37 PM

Quote from: BitChick on February 19, 2014, 12:52:05 PM

Quote from: hilariousandco on February 19, 2014, 12:41:49 PM

Quote from: BitChick on February 19, 2014, 12:32:14 PM

Quote from: guybrushthreepwood on February 19, 2014, 12:22:38 PM

Quote from: BitChick on February 19, 2014, 12:06:04 PM

If you understand evolution as you say you do then give me the one answer I have been looking for here. Give me an example in the fossil record of how a fish became a dog or any kind changing into another kind. I want just ONE fossil that proves this.

Are you really requesting that we show you a fossil of a half dogfish? Can you show us one piece of evidence for god?

To look at a newborn baby and observe how beautifully he/she has been created is enough evidence for God that I will ever need, but that won't mean anything to most people here. Wink

What do you see when you look at a hideous miscarried deformed baby? What do you see when you see a child starving and dying of AIDS? Why did your loving all powerful and infinitely intelligent god create AIDS and give it to that beautiful innocent baby in the first place? Why can god not create a cell free from cancer? Why are people born blind and deaf? Look at the horrors of the world and ask yourself what sick fuck would create all that tragedy then do fuck all about it? I've got a reason, AIDS evolved just like everything else did and cancers and deformities and mutations just happen. But maybe you're right, and god did create everything, but then he's a horrible evil bastard and personally I wouldn't want anything to do with him on principle alone.

Sin entered the world when Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Then sickness entered the world because of man's disobedience, as well as death. We are living in fallen world with disease and sickness and pain and suffering. Jesus came to bring life and hope. He even healed the sick, and still does. Most hospitals were started by Christians/Catholics to help bring healing to those that are suffering. Most charities are religious in nature because God places it in the heart of us to reach out and love others.

Yes, this life if filled with pain and suffering. We will all die. We will all be accountable for God's law, even if we don't believe in it or not. We can choose to believe whatever we want about Him. We can deny Him. We can be angry with Him because things seem so "unfair." But God out of His great love for us sent His son, Jesus, to pay the price for our sins so we can be restored to Him and have eternal life and He wills that everyone come to Him. And who should we blame for all the sin, sickness, death, pain, abuse in the world? Satan is the deceiver. He is the one that is behind it all. But in rejecting God man is taking sides with the one that is behind all of these atrocities. We have a choice.

So god decided to create cancer and AIDS because of Adam and Eve, so he punishes everybody who has ever lived because of them two plebs? If Jesus or god can cure the blind, why not cure blindness altogether? Why not cure all diseases? Why even make them in the first place? Why must everyone suffer? How can someone be so cruel and evil? He has the power to do everything, yet he does nothing? You claim he's all knowledgeable, but didn't foresee what people would do? Can you not see that only humans could create a being so repugnant as this god character? I honestly don't know whether you're trolling or not.

I am not trolling. I am very passionate about my faith as you can see.

But I will admit that your way of thinking is much more popular than mine. If I was trying to win a popularity contest with my belief in creation as well as God I would be in huge trouble! Cheesy

That said, I have contemplated how to best answer your accusations of the unfairness of God. I would say the best thing to do is to take it up with Him. We have all had questions as to His fairness, or lack thereof. But for me it comes down to putting blame where blame is due and I am partially to blame in that I have made choices in my life that have gone against God's laws. Have I sinned against God? Yes. Do I deserve the punishment for that sin? Yes. Am I thankful for God's promise of forgiveness and grace and a hope of eternal life beyond this crappy world? Definitely! But many people in this world have no understanding of even the slightest need for God in their lives, or they just believe he does not exist at all.

How do I take it up with him? If I ask I wont get any answers. Just silence which already speaks loud and clear. Do you not think all these answers are just excuses though? Where do all these answers come from? The bible or has god told you these personally? I'm sure you've just had these answers drilled into you by someone. I was raised a Catholic and went to all Catholic schools, but once you start to think for yourself it quickly becomes apparent that there's not a single piece of evidence for any gods whatsoever.

Gimpeline

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Quote from: BitChick on February 19, 2014, 12:32:14 PM

Quote from: guybrushthreepwood on February 19, 2014, 12:22:38 PM

Quote from: BitChick on February 19, 2014, 12:06:04 PM

If you understand evolution as you say you do then give me the one answer I have been looking for here. Give me an example in the fossil record of how a fish became a dog or any kind changing into another kind. I want just ONE fossil that proves this.

Are you really requesting that we show you a fossil of a half dogfish? Can you show us one piece of evidence for god?

To look at a newborn baby and observe how beautifully he/she has been created is enough evidence for God that I will ever need, but that won't mean anything to most people here. Wink

My point in wanting ONE fossil that shows how one kind has changed into another kind is to make the point that there is not solid observable evidence that supports the theory of evolution. Therefore it takes "faith" to believe in it.

Your faith in evolution is not much different in my faith in creation.

Sorry but one "kind" as you call it (In science there is no "kind". It's a therm creationists made up) dosent turn in to another over night. Thats not what the evolutiontheorty teaches so you will never find it. Its a prosess that takes many many ears. All species are a transission from one species to another. Its an neverending prosses.
That is often the problem when you are debating people that are opposed to the theory.... They have no idea what the theory they oppose really is

PhydeauxLeChien

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So to recap: beautiful/"perfect" babies are your evidence for God, and deformed/diseased babies are your evidence that she is punishing us Roll Eyes

.

See also my earlier post:

Quote from: PhydeauxLeChien on February 19, 2014, 05:39:20 AM

"All the good and perfect things come from God, all bad things come from us disobeying" is absurd. God (in your view) not only created us fallible, weak and mortal, but also created the very concept of sin, the mechanisms whereby we sin, and the capacity of other people to suffer as a result of our sin. "But she sent her only son to die for our sins!" This is also quite absurd since she created the system where a sacrifice was needed a sacrifice in the first place and, being omnipotent, could have ignored it if she wanted.