Topic: 50K bidwall at 2.30 - Crash over? - page 4. (Read 8065 times)
The point of the bidwall is the opposite of what you think it is. It is not to hold the price up, it is to trigger panic sells. Notice that last night there was a single sell of something like 10000 BTC between 2.45 and 2.2. Let's say the average price was 2.3. Now the same seller is propping up 2.2. Any buys at 2.2 are profit for them because they just sold at 2.3. But even better, when things look ripe, they can drop the wall, and maybe kick start things with a little sell of 500 or so coins. Let the price plummit and then buy their same 10000 BTC back on the cheap as everyone panics.
Looks like the manipulator is not able to push the price higher, his current position is getting chewed on right now. I do not know how long he will hold his bidwall there.
No point really, I just dislike seeing blanket statements calling people stupid and idiots for being the victim of a crime, but some people are just like that I suppose.
Nobody likes it when innocent people are the victim of a crime either, but it doesn't turn me into a blithering, weepy mess. Just because you seem so willing to give your money away to those who do not think twice about sending their credit card details to a Nigeran Prince in exchange for $1 million, does not give you the moral high ground.
A fool and his money is easily parted - we should be trying to help people understand the best ways to keep their money safe, not give them the freedom to spend it as stupidly as possible while the rest of us are forced to foot the bill.
Crime can (and should) be dealt with by the legal system... not the financial system.
The mainstream financial system is a crime purported on the bottom 99%. Fiat currency is hidden slavery and we should all be up in arms about it but it seems only a few are willing to protest. I agree though that crime should be dealt with by the legal system but I don't know if the police would even bother filling out a report for stolen bitcoins. From my experience cops only go after violent crimes and it seems the financial crimes by and large go unpunished. Its too much work for the police despite their excessively high salaries. Maybe we need a seperate police force just to deal with financial crimes?
No point really, I just dislike seeing blanket statements calling people stupid and idiots for being the victim of a crime, but some people are just like that I suppose.
I don't like it when innocent people are the victim of a crime either, but it doesn't turn me into a blithering, weepy mess. Just because you seem so willing to give your money away to those who do not think twice about sending their credit card details to a Nigeran Prince in exchange for $1 million, does not give you the moral high ground.
The chargeback process can be easily abused and is wide open to serious fraud itself, which gives scammers an even greater ability to defraud honest businesses out of money. And there is very little they can do about it, while stupid people can always be educated.
A fool and his money are easily parted. We should be trying to educate people to help them understand the best ways to keep their money safe and avoid scams in the first place, not give them the freedom to spend it as stupidly as possible and actively disincentivize financial prudence, while the rest of us are forced to foot the bill.
Crime can (and should) be dealt with by the legal system... not the financial system.
Just made 10% off that last "crash" to $2.20 
I really like this "manipulator" guy.
I really like this "manipulator" guy.I have 0 invested but when I go to sell the coins I made mining it would be nice if they were worth something lol. Still lets see what happens over the next few days. Quite frankly Im surprised MtGox hasnt suspended this account for causing so much volatility but i guess they dont care since they get a cut off every transaction anyways.
if you want to hedge your mined coins, then why not short them on bitcoinica?!
go there, put like.. 100BTC on it, sell 200, w8 untill next chrash, liquidate -> profit from the cheaper coins you pay back to bitcoinica.
that speculation just made me 275%. if i was a miner, i would hedge my mined bitcoins against worth-loosing with a short position, OR at least don't sell any of them until prices are up again, probably happening after the ~1$ low within the next 2-3 months.
greets
Unfortunately this type of behavior is what makes it unattractive for vendors to accept BTC for purchases. Such volatility means they will not be able to accept BTC for purchases without say a 20% surcharge in order to hedge their bets against losses. You cannot pay your rent or taxes with Bitcoins. At least not anywhere I know. I bet this speculator is on this board and is one of the people trying to drive the price down to $1.50 or lower. Still based on previous data we could see a genuine increase back above $3 in the next couple of days.
Sadly this is correct. The price of BTC is irrelevant for a merchant the volatility is what matters. Small amounts of volatility can be easily hedged giving a merchant stable pricing power. The 20%+ moves in span of seconds kills the utility of Bitcoin as a medium of exchange. Hopefully increased volume will eventually dampen these moves.
The one small bright spot is that the value "only" moves 30% which is interesting given the massive volume. We had larger volume and a smaller drop than prior single day crashes. I can only hope this trend continues because the current volatility makes BTC little more than a plaything for speculators.
No point really, I just dislike seeing blanket statements calling people stupid and idiots for being the victim of a crime, but some people are just like that I suppose.
Ah, the old "Its YOUR fault for getting scammed, suck it up!"
I suppose you could reduce it to that statement, albeit rather simplistically. Do you have a point?
Reasons for being scammed:
1) Falling for a confidence trick
2) Trying to get a too-good-to-be-true deal
3) Trying to turn a fast buck
4) Stupidity
5) All of the above
I have never in my life been scammed because I am cautious about who I give my money to, I know that if a deal sounds too good to be true it probably is, I make sensible investments and I have informed myself quite well thanks to a good education.
I feel bad for honest people who get scammed, but if people have a permanent false sense of security, then where is the incentive to be prudent with your money? If we keep giving people who get scammed their money back, they will never learn and the scam artists run riot. It's a tough but necessary lesson in economics.
I don't want to be footing the bill for the mistakes of others when I have gone to great lengths to ensure that I don't make those mistakes myself.
If they want a safety net, maybe all the idiots in the world can come together and create themselves some sort of 'idiot insurance'. I don't want any part of it though. If they want protection then they will have to pay the cost of their own stupidity themselves.
as a customer I want to be able to charge back a dodgy business.
As a customer, why would you take risks on dodgy businesses in the first place?
You should trust those who you intend to transact with, if not - then find a trustworthy alternative. If you decide on a whim to take the risk anyway, why should I have to pay for your mistake when you get suckered out of your money?
By having to pay I am referring to the fact that I am forced to also concede to chargebacks as a business, or as a consumer am required to pay higher prices to cover the CC fees passed on to me by businesses to pay for the cost of the chargeback process.
Do your own due diligence. Expecting others to do it for you is naive.
When you throw caution to the wind, you cannot also expect to have a safety net if things don't go your way.
It's completely childish.
"MOMMY!!! The dodgy man lied to me. He told me these beans were magic!!! WAAAA"
Ah, the old "Its YOUR fault for getting scammed, suck it up!"
Ideally, people should be able to hold on to bitcoins without losing lots of money, but we are not there yet.
Cheaper than PayPal or credit cards (even with trading fees)
Much cheaper than other irrevocable payments (wire transfers)
Easier for international buyers
Works for things that PayPal doesn't allow like virtual goods, porn, or Wikileaks
Privacy / anonymity
Microtransactions
I'd love to use it for a value store as well, but that will wait.
Much cheaper than other irrevocable payments (wire transfers)
Easier for international buyers
Works for things that PayPal doesn't allow like virtual goods, porn, or Wikileaks
Privacy / anonymity
Microtransactions
I'd love to use it for a value store as well, but that will wait.
Just to add that some people might prefer to pay with bitcoins than with paypal. If it is a simple system to setup with small fees and brings additional customers, then why not?
Ideally, people should be able to hold on to bitcoins without losing lots of money, but we are not there yet.
as a customer I want to be able to charge back a dodgy business.
As a customer, why would you take risks on dodgy businesses in the first place?
You should trust those who you intend to transact with, if not - then find a trustworthy alternative. If you decide on a whim to take the risk anyway, why should I have to pay for your mistake when you get suckered out of your money?
By having to pay I am referring to the fact that I am forced to also concede to chargebacks as a business, or as a consumer am required to pay higher prices to cover the CC fees passed on to me by businesses to pay for the cost of the chargeback process.
Do your own due diligence. Expecting others to do it for you is naive.
When you throw caution to the wind, you cannot also expect to have a safety net if things don't go your way.
It's completely childish.
"MOMMY!!! The dodgy man lied to me. He told me these beans were magic!!! WAAAA"
Quote
then why deal in BTC at all?
Cheaper than PayPal or credit cards (even with trading fees)
Much cheaper than other irrevocable payments (wire transfers)
Easier for international buyers
Works for things that PayPal doesn't allow like virtual goods, porn, or Wikileaks
Privacy / anonymity
Microtransactions
I'd love to use it for a value store as well, but that will wait.
Very true. No sane merchant would ever trade in a commodity/currency that can change several percent in value within the space of a minute. All the arguments for using BTC fly out the window when the merchant needs to put a hefty margin on their sales to compensate compared to using traditional currencies.
I find it surprising that a long time poster can say something like this. It's entirely possible to accept Bitcoins for payment with ZERO currency risk. Either by using a payment system such as bitpay and in that case the merchant doesn't even have to know what Bitcoin is. The other option is to set up a do-it-yourself system but this requires knowledge of Bitcoin and IT.I don't expect this from clueless posters such as proudhon but come on...
It's been said before but... if you're going to get rid of your BTC as soon as you receive them (to not carry currency value risk), then why deal in BTC at all? BTC payment services and BTC<->USD transfers aren't free. The merchant is creating another layer of paper work for themselves. The only advantage is no charge backs, but as a customer I want to be able to charge back a dodgy business.
Very true. No sane merchant would ever trade in a commodity/currency that can change several percent in value within the space of a minute. All the arguments for using BTC fly out the window when the merchant needs to put a hefty margin on their sales to compensate compared to using traditional currencies.
I find it surprising that a long time poster can say something like this. It's entirely possible to accept Bitcoins for payment with ZERO currency risk. Either by using a payment system such as bitpay and in that case the merchant doesn't even have to know what Bitcoin is. The other option is to set up a do-it-yourself system but this requires knowledge of Bitcoin and IT.I don't expect this from clueless posters such as proudhon but come on...
So, what do we reckon about the fake $2.20 support and the rising price this time? Another pump 'n dump cycle coming in the next couple of hours? The market may be wisening up to this (finally) as there's only $1200 or so required to go from $2.30 to the $2.20 'wall'.
There'll probably be another build up period with volume piling up a little bit ahead of the bid wall pushing the price as high as 2.5, maybe even a little more. Then the big wall(s) will come down, this guy'll sell into the fresh bids, there'll be another flurry of panic selling and we'll setup for it to happen again at a lower price. My guess is this will keep happening until whoever this is has rid himself of bitcoins in exchange for money he can actually use for something.
Unfortunately this type of behavior is what makes it unattractive for vendors to accept BTC for purchases. Such volatility means they will not be able to accept BTC for purchases without say a 20% surcharge in order to hedge their bets against losses. You cannot pay your rent or taxes with Bitcoins. At least not anywhere I know. I bet this speculator is on this board and is one of the people trying to drive the price down to $1.50 or lower. Still based on previous data we could see a genuine increase back above $3 in the next couple of days.
Very true. No sane merchant would ever trade in a commodity/currency that can change several percent in value within the space of a minute. All the arguments for using BTC fly out the window when the merchant needs to put a hefty margin on their sales to compensate compared to using traditional currencies.
I also agree that the chief person responsible for today's mischief is almost certainly reading these posts. They're putting on a good show and making MtGox Live interesting to watch, but pumping and dumping the market too often can kill the golden goose.
MM = Market Maker. One of the two types of brokers on forex. I played around on http://fxtrade.oanda.com/ and had a lot of fun, really like that platform. I highly recommend you read *everything* here http://www.babypips.com/school/ before messing with forex, especially if you want to throw real money into it. Use the practice account for months before you lose real money, lol. I still don't have the capital or guts to open up a real account. I only trade with real money on BTC because all my coins are mined, my cards are paid off, and I get "free" electricity, so I have no risk.
Thanks, I will take a look at Forex, I have been meaning to look into for playing the market with currency and gold/silver.
So you are a btc miner, sounds like you have an edge and are doing well for yourself. Congrats,
SJ
Those bitcoin traders who wised up to this behaviour months ago are riding the waves, others are getting crushed by them time and time again.
You nailed it dude. I learned how to trade the BTC market months ago. This is just more of the same, but more fun because 50k BTC is being thrown around like mad. I couldn't trade stocks like this (practice virtual account) but the Forex market is *very* similar to the BTC [forex essentially] market so I opened up a practice Forex account with one of the larger MM's, used my BTC trading skills, and pulled away with almost 100% profitable trades.So your practice forex account is not real money? Can you explain what you mean by "larger MMs" ?
I would like to open a Forex account too !
SJ
So, what do we reckon about the fake $2.20 support and the rising price this time? Another pump 'n dump cycle coming in the next couple of hours? The market may be wisening up to this (finally) as there's only $1200 or so required to go from $2.30 to the $2.20 'wall'.
There'll probably be another build up period with volume piling up a little bit ahead of the bid wall pushing the price as high as 2.5, maybe even a little more. Then the big wall(s) will come down, this guy'll sell into the fresh bids, there'll be another flurry of panic selling and we'll setup for it to happen again at a lower price. My guess is this will keep happening until whoever this is has rid himself of bitcoins in exchange for money he can actually use for something.
Unfortunately this type of behavior is what makes it unattractive for vendors to accept BTC for purchases. Such volatility means they will not be able to accept BTC for purchases without say a 20% surcharge in order to hedge their bets against losses. You cannot pay your rent or taxes with Bitcoins. At least not anywhere I know. I bet this speculator is on this board and is one of the people trying to drive the price down to $1.50 or lower. Still based on previous data we could see a genuine increase back above $3 in the next couple of days.
So, what do we reckon about the fake $2.20 support and the rising price this time? Another pump 'n dump cycle coming in the next couple of hours? The market may be wisening up to this (finally) as there's only $1200 or so required to go from $2.30 to the $2.20 'wall'.
There'll probably be another build up period with volume piling up a little bit ahead of the bid wall pushing the price as high as 2.5, maybe even a little more. Then the big wall(s) will come down, this guy'll sell into the fresh bids, there'll be another flurry of panic selling and we'll setup for it to happen again at a lower price. My guess is this will keep happening until whoever this is has rid himself of bitcoins in exchange for money he can actually use for something.
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