Topic: 65 nm Chips - [BFL ACCEPTED 100% ESCROW by John K.] - Group Buy #1 - Kernel32 - page 7. (Read 14768 times)
June 07, 2013, 07:09:15 AM
Another scam
June 07, 2013, 06:42:23 AM
The promise is there:
Quote
We are going to be releasing the specs and reference board designs, so someone will develop their own firmware.
Josh 06-06-2013 06:20 PM in Shoutbox.
But when, who knows.
I wrote another email to Josh as follows:
Quote
Hi Josh,
Thank you for your answer.
John K. already expressed his good will to do the escrow.
Where I can't get you any hard number on how many chips we will buy, it's certain that the community is willing to invest a lot in this.
To get the most interesting deal possible and all of the potential/undecided costumers involved, you could give them some guarantees, that way they can put any doubts behind. Could we agree on random chip selection hash test attended by our representative before escrow release? Community based board development is also a very good motivation. Are you able to arrange sample chips (even with only some cores working) and chip documentation delivery to (2-3) community lead developers in let's say two weeks?
As the the number of chips could be pretty high, let me please know what proportions of grade A, B, C .. chips are most beneficial for your company.
Thank you Josh,
Kernel32
BitcoinTalk.org community member
Thank you for your answer.
John K. already expressed his good will to do the escrow.
Where I can't get you any hard number on how many chips we will buy, it's certain that the community is willing to invest a lot in this.
To get the most interesting deal possible and all of the potential/undecided costumers involved, you could give them some guarantees, that way they can put any doubts behind. Could we agree on random chip selection hash test attended by our representative before escrow release? Community based board development is also a very good motivation. Are you able to arrange sample chips (even with only some cores working) and chip documentation delivery to (2-3) community lead developers in let's say two weeks?
As the the number of chips could be pretty high, let me please know what proportions of grade A, B, C .. chips are most beneficial for your company.
Thank you Josh,
Kernel32
BitcoinTalk.org community member
Two weeks to get the samples to developers. Sounds fair?
Let's see what happens next. Stay tuned guys.
June 07, 2013, 06:09:55 AM
Looking forward to see how willing they are to send documentation and reference designs when we get any board builder on board.
The promise is there:
Quote
We are going to be releasing the specs and reference board designs, so someone will develop their own firmware.
Josh 06-06-2013 06:20 PM in Shoutbox.
But when, who knows.
June 07, 2013, 05:53:57 AM
As Chris/BkkCoins (Klondike board developer) in our communication stated:
I say let's get hands of developers on BFL sample chips (and docs) in two weeks same as Avalon.
Quote
If they (BFL) manage to ship real chips I'll be surprised and if they put out a chip spec doc I'll have a look to see if I could design a board for it, but for now I'm working on this one (Avalon )and hoping that Avalon actually does ship samples in a week or two.
Chris.
Chris.
I say let's get hands of developers on BFL sample chips (and docs) in two weeks same as Avalon.
June 07, 2013, 05:43:40 AM
Looking forward to see how willing they are to send documentation and reference designs when we get any board builder on board.
June 07, 2013, 05:40:57 AM
100 + 4-6 weeks
That is the pattern, but not the case this time. ESCROW will be released in 100 days no matter what. To BFL if they deliver the real thing in time or back to my Group Buyers.
You realize that you can get your $800 back by just asking for it, right?
If we succeed to get developers all they need (documentation, samples) as part of the deal, that will be very good news for BFL "pre-order-scheme" costumers. Josh stated that they can convert the pre-orders into chips. (Or ... well get refunded)
Chips Ordered: 0
Nobody is
Please note, that the Group Buy is not open yet. I'm refining the deal and discussing options with community board developers. (Chips without boards are worth nothing.)
As Yifu points out, such a small advantage going from 110nm to 65nm indicates some serious problems...or deceit.
In fact, by my read of both ~ngzhang's characteristically up-front comments and the numbers, Avalon's chips themselves are kind of a quick-n-dirty hack. So, using them as a baseline at the 110nm size makes the BFL handled chips look even worse.
Quote
If BFL is going to go with 100% escrow, I would say there is a damn good chance that whatever they deliver would otherwise be thrown into the dumpster.
Based on WHAT (other than your obviously biased contempt for BFL)? You think BFL wants to further damage their reputation by sending out a bunch of non fuctional chips? LOL, the leaps you people will take to justify your BFL hate are incredible.
Pffft. How could anything 'damage' BFL's reputation at this point?
As stated above, random selection of BFL chips will be tested previous to ESCROW release. My Group Buyers either get quality on time or money back from John K. I know the idea of actually recieving a BFL product seems ridiculous, but two days ago a lot of people laughed at me about 100% escrow with BFL. The approach used now is different. No upfront, no shit.
Like it or not, the main question of future bitcoin mining isn't "Should I use GPU, FPGA or ASIC?", but "How efficient is my ASIC?"
BFL chips as demonstrated on BFL's short board (Jalapeno) are twice as efficient as Avalon's right now. That's a fact. Not saying Avalon is bad. I purchased a lot of Avalon chips.
Butterfly chips have most likely a big potential for tweaking (given the specs development during production and testing). But don't count on that. That is only my wild speculation right now.
It's funny how Yifu is your go-to-source for opinions when he is BFL's direct competitor. It's like asking Mcdonald's CEO what he thinks of the Whopper.
I like Yifu very much, he is a great man and a very capable entrepreneur. But I have to agree with PeZ on this one.
Sorry for reacting mostly to the negative posts, but those need answers. Thank you for the support.
June 07, 2013, 04:34:48 AM
I guess they would like to sell chips for us to build miner even if they still haven't demonstrated serious production (lol ).
Even so miner larger then 5Gh/s power would be something like a single chip product , and it seems to be they are not up to the task building anything larger then jalapeno or what ever its called.
If they don't know how to build it, how could we expect us to know how, when its their product!?
They will give us their board design & stuff? If they have it they would be shipping their products long time ago.
BFL will be in real trouble once Avalon starts shipping chips, and it might be game over for those who ordered any of BFL ASIC products.
To sum that offer up it looks like bull shit packed in box of horse shit, tbh.
Anyway good luck with that, after all maybe I am wrong.
Of yes, that proven design line from Josh made me chuckle.
). Even so miner larger then 5Gh/s power would be something like a single chip product , and it seems to be they are not up to the task building anything larger then jalapeno or what ever its called.
If they don't know how to build it, how could we expect us to know how, when its their product!?
They will give us their board design & stuff? If they have it they would be shipping their products long time ago.
BFL will be in real trouble once Avalon starts shipping chips, and it might be game over for those who ordered any of BFL ASIC products.
To sum that offer up it looks like bull shit packed in box of horse shit, tbh.
Anyway good luck with that, after all maybe I am wrong.
Of yes, that proven design line from Josh made me chuckle.
June 07, 2013, 03:43:13 AM
Come on, don't support these assholes
Chips Ordered: 0
Nobody is
June 07, 2013, 03:19:43 AM
Come on, don't support these assholes
June 07, 2013, 03:12:29 AM
100 + 4-6 weeks
June 07, 2013, 02:35:10 AM
Chip delivery schedule is approximately 100 days + two weeks + two weeks + two weeks?
?.
?. 
June 07, 2013, 02:30:13 AM
Quote from: tvbcof
Quote from: wmonkey
Quote from: tvbcof
If BFL is going to go with 100% escrow, I would say there is a damn good chance that whatever they deliver would otherwise be thrown into the dumpster.
Based on WHAT (other than your obviously biased contempt for BFL)? You think BFL wants to further damage their reputation by sending out a bunch of non fuctional chips? LOL, the leaps you people will take to justify your BFL hate are incredible.
Pffft. How could anything 'damage' BFL's reputation at this point?
Right, it doesn't seem like you should have to take such radical leaps to find something to dislike. Why not just stick with the justified reasons to not like them, like the continuous delays and missed targets? Why does one need to make up additional baseless nonsense in order to justify already justified frustration? That's what I don't get. People are in a 'full-retard' race with each other to come up with the most absurd reasons to be frustrated with BFL, when there are already a couple of perfectly good reasons. Thank you for making my point.
If you want to be angry at BFL, be angry for real reasons. It will lend more credibility to your argument.
I'm not angry at all. I'm heartily amused by the whole thing. Lots of us (mostly others) have been very active at saving would-be victims a ton of money over the last year or so, and it seems that some of the newer participants in the economy are recognizing this and appreciating it.
This was a general "you," as I don't think the original comment in question was yours. But you've clearly got some anger toward BFL.
Quote
I am pretty disgusted at BFL's business practices. I see no way to argue that a lot of the crap that Josh has spewed has not been bald-faced lies with no hope of being true. Similarly, I went all the way to the point of paying for their high-end item with no indication that it was a 'pre-order'. These guys are scum-of-the-earth in my opinion and anything that anyone does to make their scams less profitable for them is A-OK with me.
So the ends justify the means, eh? Sorry, I don't buy it. If you can't base your argument on sound facts and logic, your argument is weak and flawed. If you have to tell lies and half-truths to get people to agree with you, then it betrays your lack of belief in your own cause.
Quote
The only saving grace that these guys have is that rather then victimizing senile oldsters as in the last rendition of Sonny's scammery, they are victimizing greedy Bitcoin miners. It still suck though.
So you believe that BFL is just scamming, with no intention of shipping products? If you actually believe that, then I can respect it (although, I think you're incredibly ignorant to believe that). If you don't actually believe it (which I think is more likely the case), you're spreading falsehoods to support your cause, because you don't actually believe your position has enough merit to stand on its own based on fact. And I pity you.
June 07, 2013, 02:21:10 AM
Quote from: tvbcof
Quote from: wmonkey
Quote from: tvbcof
If BFL is going to go with 100% escrow, I would say there is a damn good chance that whatever they deliver would otherwise be thrown into the dumpster.
Based on WHAT (other than your obviously biased contempt for BFL)? You think BFL wants to further damage their reputation by sending out a bunch of non fuctional chips? LOL, the leaps you people will take to justify your BFL hate are incredible.
Pffft. How could anything 'damage' BFL's reputation at this point?
Right, it doesn't seem like you should have to take such radical leaps to find something to dislike. Why not just stick with the justified reasons to not like them, like the continuous delays and missed targets? Why does one need to make up additional baseless nonsense in order to justify already justified frustration? That's what I don't get. People are in a 'full-retard' race with each other to come up with the most absurd reasons to be frustrated with BFL, when there are already a couple of perfectly good reasons. Thank you for making my point.
If you want to be angry at BFL, be angry for real reasons. It will lend more credibility to your argument.
I'm not angry at all. I'm heartily amused by the whole thing. Lots of us (mostly others) have been very active at saving would-be victims a ton of money over the last year or so, and it seems that some of the newer participants in the economy are recognizing this and appreciating it.
I am pretty disgusted at BFL's business practices. I see no way to argue that a lot of the crap that Josh has spewed has not been bald-faced lies with no hope of being true. Similarly, I went all the way to the point of paying for their high-end item with no indication that it was a 'pre-order'. These guys are scum-of-the-earth in my opinion and anything that anyone does to make their scams less profitable for them is A-OK with me.
The only saving grace that these guys have is that rather then victimizing senile oldsters as in the last rendition of Sonny's scammery, they are victimizing greedy Bitcoin miners. It still suck though.
June 07, 2013, 02:00:43 AM
Yifu seemed to have a fairly high opinion of ASICMINER. I do also. Their 130nm chips strikes me as the most impressive. Avalon's 110nm second, and the supposedly 65nm one being pawned by BFL is either not 65nm, or is a steaming little piece of shit. Or both. I'd certainly be writing this into any escrow agreement although it doesn't actually matter exactly why it sucks so badly I suppose.
Not surprising, since ASICMiner doesn't pose a real threat to them in terms of market share. It's easy to be generous with a company that is no serious threat to your own. BFL's chip still consumes less than half the power of Avalon's, so if it's a steaming piece of shit, it's still better than Avalon's, and if it's not really 65nm, then it's REALLY showing Avalon up...
As Yifu points out, such a small advantage going from 110nm to 65nm indicates some serious problems...or deceit.
In fact, by my read of both ~ngzhang's characteristically up-front comments and the numbers, Avalon's chips themselves are kind of a quick-n-dirty hack. So, using them as a baseline at the 110nm size makes the BFL handled chips look even worse.
If the position is that they didn't squeeze as much performance as it technically possible out of that die size, then I agree. However, the performance IS better than anything else currently on the market. So, you know...
They're still the best game in town. Either they squeezed a shit-ton more performance out of a larger die size than Yufu was able to (which makes Yifu look bad), or (and I think more likely) it's really a 65nm die size, and they didn't optimize it as much as they potentially could have (which is still a better performing chip than anybody else's).
Quote
Quote
If BFL is going to go with 100% escrow, I would say there is a damn good chance that whatever they deliver would otherwise be thrown into the dumpster.
Based on WHAT (other than your obviously biased contempt for BFL)? You think BFL wants to further damage their reputation by sending out a bunch of non fuctional chips? LOL, the leaps you people will take to justify your BFL hate are incredible.
Pffft. How could anything 'damage' BFL's reputation at this point?
Right, it doesn't seem like you should have to take such radical leaps to find something to dislike. Why not just stick with the justified reasons to not like them, like the continuous delays and missed targets? Why does one need to make up additional baseless nonsense in order to justify already justified frustration? That's what I don't get. People are in a 'full-retard' race with each other to come up with the most absurd reasons to be frustrated with BFL, when there are already a couple of perfectly good reasons. Thank you for making my point.
If you want to be angry at BFL, be angry for real reasons. It will lend more credibility to your argument.
June 07, 2013, 01:49:39 AM
Yifu seemed to have a fairly high opinion of ASICMINER. I do also. Their 130nm chips strikes me as the most impressive. Avalon's 110nm second, and the supposedly 65nm one being pawned by BFL is either not 65nm, or is a steaming little piece of shit. Or both. I'd certainly be writing this into any escrow agreement although it doesn't actually matter exactly why it sucks so badly I suppose.
Not surprising, since ASICMiner doesn't pose a real threat to them in terms of market share. It's easy to be generous with a company that is no serious threat to your own. BFL's chip still consumes less than half the power of Avalon's, so if it's a steaming piece of shit, it's still better than Avalon's, and if it's not really 65nm, then it's REALLY showing Avalon up...
As Yifu points out, such a small advantage going from 110nm to 65nm indicates some serious problems...or deceit.
In fact, by my read of both ~ngzhang's characteristically up-front comments and the numbers, Avalon's chips themselves are kind of a quick-n-dirty hack. So, using them as a baseline at the 110nm size makes the BFL handled chips look even worse.
Quote
If BFL is going to go with 100% escrow, I would say there is a damn good chance that whatever they deliver would otherwise be thrown into the dumpster.
Based on WHAT (other than your obviously biased contempt for BFL)? You think BFL wants to further damage their reputation by sending out a bunch of non fuctional chips? LOL, the leaps you people will take to justify your BFL hate are incredible.
Pffft. How could anything 'damage' BFL's reputation at this point?
June 07, 2013, 01:49:03 AM
might be interested if can be guarantee and with escrow
June 07, 2013, 01:48:55 AM
BFL don't make chips as far as i know. So what are you looking to buy from them?
Hm.. i see post now. interesting to start selling chips before selling complete products on wait since june last year.
i wouldnt trust them for a dime.
They do make devices and they have shipped too. Unfortunately they move with the speed of a snail on NOS. Noone trusts them and hell i wouldn't trust them even to hold my beer for a sec. I have thrown out $800 already and now waiting for a device to be shipped on the "40th of April"...Hm.. i see post now. interesting to start selling chips before selling complete products on wait since june last year.
i wouldnt trust them for a dime.
Anyway, good luck with the GB. If anything moves, maybe i'll jump in, but not now.
You realize that you can get your $800 back by just asking for it, right?
June 07, 2013, 01:46:26 AM
BFL don't make chips as far as i know. So what are you looking to buy from them?
Hm.. i see post now. interesting to start selling chips before selling complete products on wait since june last year.
i wouldnt trust them for a dime.
They do make devices and they have shipped too. Unfortunately they move with the speed of a snail on NOS. Noone trusts them and hell i wouldn't trust them even to hold my beer for a sec. I have thrown out $800 already and now waiting for a device to be shipped on the "40th of April"...Hm.. i see post now. interesting to start selling chips before selling complete products on wait since june last year.
i wouldnt trust them for a dime.
Anyway, good luck with the GB. If anything moves, maybe i'll jump in, but not now.
June 07, 2013, 01:43:50 AM
count me in once you start the group buy with guaranteed chip delivery not just a promise
June 07, 2013, 01:29:41 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtVx26LlNXA <--- Yifu Guo of Avalon skeptical of Butterfly Labs
Why would anyone do that?
It's funny how Yifu is your go-to-source for opinions when he is BFL's direct competitor. It's like asking Mcdonald's CEO what he thinks of the Whopper.Why would anyone do that?
Yifu seemed to have a fairly high opinion of ASICMINER. I do also. Their 130nm chips strikes me as the most impressive. Avalon's 110nm second, and the supposedly 65nm one being pawned by BFL is either not 65nm, or is a steaming little piece of shit. Or both. I'd certainly be writing this into any escrow agreement although it doesn't actually matter exactly why it sucks so badly I suppose.
Not surprising, since ASICMiner doesn't pose a real threat to them in terms of market share. It's easy to be generous with a company that is no serious threat to your own. BFL's chip still consumes less than half the power of Avalon's, so if it's a steaming piece of shit, it's still better than Avalon's, and if it's not really 65nm, then it's REALLY showing Avalon up...
Quote
If BFL is going to go with 100% escrow, I would say there is a damn good chance that whatever they deliver would otherwise be thrown into the dumpster.
Based on WHAT (other than your obviously biased contempt for BFL)? You think BFL wants to further damage their reputation by sending out a bunch of non fuctional chips? LOL, the leaps you people will take to justify your BFL hate are incredible.
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