Many years ago I went to the Lalique factory in france. As others have pointed out, this is very pretty and some would want to show it off. In addition to an NFC model, you could also make an empty device which people could insert an encrypted paper wallet or small flash drive/chip into. They could then keep one or two backups in a safe place and one on display (empty or not) without having to worry too much if it gets stolen. That might also allow you to get off the ground quicker and get some income to keep developing the ultimate model. It may also give you access to a wider audience than just the BTC community.
As to the dildo comments, have you seen the number of womens' deodorant sticks that look phallic? That is definitely a marketing plus.
Topic: A sneak peak at the future of Bitcoin Cold Storage - page 4. (Read 13526 times)
That is SWEET!
I look forward to seeing how this develop will work. Good luch and patience!
Current prototype history- working on new ones now to fix various issues. Trying to make it smaller, more svelte, higher manufacture quality, etc...
Wow looks great kinds of reminds of the superman crystal, anyway would be nice to see bitcoin cold storage like that, let me know when u have it out.
The superman crystal was actually an inspiration. I'm glad someone picked up on it already.
Here is another shot of the current prototype. Next iteration should be a bit smaller, more uniform in the color (This is as tricky process- it's coated with a really special process using plasma lightning in a super hot vacuum chamber, using a badass technology that was previously used to coat warheads or other such military uses by the soviets. Indeed the factory is in one of the post-communist states. The coating is ultra hard. Seriously crazy/cool.)
The idea is for it to be a one time use only- you put your bitcoin inside, and you store it away for that one day when bitcoin hits $1 million. The idea came originally from my attempt to laser engrave bitcoin private keys inside diamonds. It's a fantastic idea, but there's no way to get away from the fact that you have to trust the manufacturer. These devices you don't have to trust the manufacturer (me) at all to use it.
But I wanted to pick up on the same sort of value and, nearly, durability of diamonds. A problem with paper wallets is they aren't necessarily obviously valuable to everyone. Nor are QR codes on objects. So I thought to make a device that if someone like your descent were to find, they would naturally protect the device and recognize that it has value, even if they don't know what it really is. Hopefully should help to prevent accidentally lost bitcoins, and because the device is not cheap, it's like a piece of sculpture or art, it should also make anyone tempted to panic sell think twice before destroying the device to get the bitcoin inside. Yes, to obtain the bitcoin inside, it must be destroyed. :-)
Looks like good, hope can develope
Thanks! I'm on yet another round of prototypes. Basically trying to figure out the best way to solve a few tricky problems, also slowly starting to build on the 'business end' of the business. It's exciting though. I've decided I'm probably going to for sure stick with tried and true NFC tech, the latest being the NTAG216 series. It's just to risky to try and develop anything custom in terms of the electronics when it comes to storing funds. This way people can also develop around the device on their own. I'm hoping to have an initial version of software that allows you to save your Android Bitcoin Wallet backup directly into the device. We will see!
Yes, like they said, don't drop it, and I am sure you will be able to find some takers, what a great conversation piece, right? 
Wow looks great kinds of reminds of the superman crystal, anyway would be nice to see bitcoin cold storage like that, let me know when u have it out.
The superman crystal was actually an inspiration. I'm glad someone picked up on it already.
Here is another shot of the current prototype. Next iteration should be a bit smaller, more uniform in the color (This is as tricky process- it's coated with a really special process using plasma lightning in a super hot vacuum chamber, using a badass technology that was previously used to coat warheads or other such military uses by the soviets. Indeed the factory is in one of the post-communist states. The coating is ultra hard. Seriously crazy/cool.)
The idea is for it to be a one time use only- you put your bitcoin inside, and you store it away for that one day when bitcoin hits $1 million. The idea came originally from my attempt to laser engrave bitcoin private keys inside diamonds. It's a fantastic idea, but there's no way to get away from the fact that you have to trust the manufacturer. These devices you don't have to trust the manufacturer (me) at all to use it.
But I wanted to pick up on the same sort of value and, nearly, durability of diamonds. A problem with paper wallets is they aren't necessarily obviously valuable to everyone. Nor are QR codes on objects. So I thought to make a device that if someone like your descent were to find, they would naturally protect the device and recognize that it has value, even if they don't know what it really is. Hopefully should help to prevent accidentally lost bitcoins, and because the device is not cheap, it's like a piece of sculpture or art, it should also make anyone tempted to panic sell think twice before destroying the device to get the bitcoin inside. Yes, to obtain the bitcoin inside, it must be destroyed. :-)
Looks like good, hope can develope
about the life of the chip.. when I think "long term" I think 30, 50 years. as in bury it in the ground or something and my myself or my descendants dig it up and can use this device alone, with no other info, and recover the coins (assuming the technology to read it still exists).
having it with a lawyer as part of the traditional estate isnt an option if youre hiding it from *everyone*
if Im reading the specs right, this device alone then will not be suitable without some external object (printed keys as a backup to the data in the chip say). or can all that info be in the device itself, perhaps some printed on a slug inside thats not visible till broken? but then how does the user get that printed slug inside?
just thinking on possible uses as the glass enclosure itself should last for centuries, even if the chip itself fails or the tech to read it fades to obscurity.
EDIT: CT scanners are not exotic tech; we have one in the office (smallish multi provider medical practice). they are (relatively) common nowadays. point being that if a CT scanner can read the slug or whatever the physical media is in the device, just having it unbroken may not in itself be a guarantee its not compromised.
So as you say, physical security is important too.
having it with a lawyer as part of the traditional estate isnt an option if youre hiding it from *everyone*
if Im reading the specs right, this device alone then will not be suitable without some external object (printed keys as a backup to the data in the chip say). or can all that info be in the device itself, perhaps some printed on a slug inside thats not visible till broken? but then how does the user get that printed slug inside?
just thinking on possible uses as the glass enclosure itself should last for centuries, even if the chip itself fails or the tech to read it fades to obscurity.
EDIT: CT scanners are not exotic tech; we have one in the office (smallish multi provider medical practice). they are (relatively) common nowadays. point being that if a CT scanner can read the slug or whatever the physical media is in the device, just having it unbroken may not in itself be a guarantee its not compromised.
So as you say, physical security is important too.
A lot can happen in 50 years, and as happy as I would be if bitcoin is still around then and we are all wonderfully rich, it might be impractical for us to be thinking that the nature of the protocol as it exists to day will still be fundamentally the same in the next 50 years, if existing even at all. At the moment I am thinking for the lifetime of existing technology which I believe to be reasonable.
As I mentioned before- there are many different levels of hiding from *everyone*. You can't beat writing a novel in your head, memorising it word for word, and using that as the seed for your brain wallet. That my friend, is SECURITY.
But tradeoffs are tradeoffs and if you're hit in the head by a falling piano and laying in a coma, such security will more likely work against you rather then for you. After all, unless you really are a criminal, the chances you fudge up your cold-storage solution are much higher then being hunted for each of your m-of-n hidden devices.
Of course, I can't help but reference:
EDIT: If you have a CT scanner, any chance when my device is ready I could send you one to scan? :-)
about the life of the chip.. when I think "long term" I think 30, 50 years. as in bury it in the ground or something and my myself or my descendants dig it up and can use this device alone, with no other info, and recover the coins (assuming the technology to read it still exists).
having it with a lawyer as part of the traditional estate isnt an option if youre hiding it from *everyone*
if Im reading the specs right, this device alone then will not be suitable without some external object (printed keys as a backup to the data in the chip say). or can all that info be in the device itself, perhaps some printed on a slug inside thats not visible till broken? but then how does the user get that printed slug inside?
just thinking on possible uses as the glass enclosure itself should last for centuries, even if the chip itself fails or the tech to read it fades to obscurity.
EDIT: CT scanners are not exotic tech; we have one in the office (smallish multi provider medical practice). they are (relatively) common nowadays. point being that if a CT scanner can read the slug or whatever the physical media is in the device, just having it unbroken may not in itself be a guarantee its not compromised.
So as you say, physical security is important too.
having it with a lawyer as part of the traditional estate isnt an option if youre hiding it from *everyone*
if Im reading the specs right, this device alone then will not be suitable without some external object (printed keys as a backup to the data in the chip say). or can all that info be in the device itself, perhaps some printed on a slug inside thats not visible till broken? but then how does the user get that printed slug inside?
just thinking on possible uses as the glass enclosure itself should last for centuries, even if the chip itself fails or the tech to read it fades to obscurity.
EDIT: CT scanners are not exotic tech; we have one in the office (smallish multi provider medical practice). they are (relatively) common nowadays. point being that if a CT scanner can read the slug or whatever the physical media is in the device, just having it unbroken may not in itself be a guarantee its not compromised.
So as you say, physical security is important too.
the main problem with any kind of chip being used is the lifetime of the chip, nobody knows exactly how long they will last. Would you trust a usb stick to last 5 years?
Yes I would trust a USB stick to last 5 years. Unlike the many hard drives that have given up the ghost on my watch, I've been using USB sticks and other solid state media since their inception and never once had a problem that I can recall.
This problem can be partially mitigated by using multisig. It can be further mitigated by pre-crafting an 'escape' transaction that is not broadcasted but when used can transfer all the bitcoin stored onto the device to yet another address. It can be even further mitigated by printing out your private keys, encrypted with the private key that is physically inside the device.
There are a lot of ways to handle this scenario. It all depends on your ability to manage your secrets. This device should go a long way in helping you to do just that.
You are supposed to use them with multi-sig and in a group of at least 3. Meaning at least one or two should be sitting somewhere safe. The third you can take out with you and show around no problem. But walking around with Titan Mint or Casacius coins is asking to get jumped and lose all your money, no?
Walking around with a shiny glass phallus is asking to get jumped too.
Well, sexual innuendo aside. If you are robbed with a physical bitcoin like the commonly minted coins, your funds on that coin are lost. If you are robbed with this device, your funds are still safe.
the main problem with any kind of chip being used is the lifetime of the chip, nobody knows exactly how long they will last. Would you trust a usb stick to last 5 years?
You know your idea is quite close to an idea I had myself the other day, but I am not in a position to realize that idea so I'll just share it.
My idea was to have 1oz gold or 1oz silver coins with a sort of chip in it with an encrypted private key and an unencrypted public key. With a standardized amount of bitcoin in the wallet when the coin is initially purchased. Of course the public key can be easily read because it's not encrypted.
The owner of the coin can read or (even better) use (without ever knowing the key) the private key using a decryption (possibly inside a ring or mobile phone or something) so the coin itself without the 'key' to decrypt it is only worth the precious metal. But once you have both the coin and the key to unlock it you have the value of the PM and the value of the bitcoins in it.
Not sure if it's feasible or even wanted but I thought it is an idea worth sharing.
My idea was to have 1oz gold or 1oz silver coins with a sort of chip in it with an encrypted private key and an unencrypted public key. With a standardized amount of bitcoin in the wallet when the coin is initially purchased. Of course the public key can be easily read because it's not encrypted.
The owner of the coin can read or (even better) use (without ever knowing the key) the private key using a decryption (possibly inside a ring or mobile phone or something) so the coin itself without the 'key' to decrypt it is only worth the precious metal. But once you have both the coin and the key to unlock it you have the value of the PM and the value of the bitcoins in it.
Not sure if it's feasible or even wanted but I thought it is an idea worth sharing.
You are supposed to use them with multi-sig and in a group of at least 3. Meaning at least one or two should be sitting somewhere safe. The third you can take out with you and show around no problem. But walking around with Titan Mint or Casacius coins is asking to get jumped and lose all your money, no?
Walking around with a shiny glass phallus is asking to get jumped too.
The same can be said for your mobile phone. Don't drop it. The device isn't intended to be handled on a daily basis. You get it, set it, and forget about it: Preferably somewhere safe other than your pocket or on the road.
Ah, but it's so pretty. If I bought it I would want to show it to everyone. What's the point of buying a shiny, expensive thing like this only to have it sit in a deposit box somewhere?
You are supposed to use them with multi-sig and in a group of at least 3. Meaning at least one or two should be sitting somewhere safe. The third you can take out with you and show around no problem. But walking around with Titan Mint or Casacius coins is asking to get jumped and lose all your money, no? With this you can walk around with one, show it around no problem. Even if it's stolen you're still good. :-)
The same can be said for your mobile phone. Don't drop it. The device isn't intended to be handled on a daily basis. You get it, set it, and forget about it: Preferably somewhere safe other than your pocket or on the road.
Ah, but it's so pretty. If I bought it I would want to show it to everyone. What's the point of buying a shiny, expensive thing like this only to have it sit in a deposit box somewhere?
A bit like some Casascius coins!
The same can be said for your mobile phone. Don't drop it. The device isn't intended to be handled on a daily basis. You get it, set it, and forget about it: Preferably somewhere safe other than your pocket or on the road.
Ah, but it's so pretty. If I bought it I would want to show it to everyone. What's the point of buying a shiny, expensive thing like this only to have it sit in a deposit box somewhere?
I get the impression the slug in the middle is hard to duplicate. What about the glass sleeve? is that marked somehow? Perhaps with an integrated marble?
BTW: I fear the greatest threat of Bitcoin loss is people loosing their encryption keys (assuming they are using some kind of sane cold-storage). M-of-N keys in multiple locations can really help protect against physical key destruction.
BTW: I fear the greatest threat of Bitcoin loss is people loosing their encryption keys (assuming they are using some kind of sane cold-storage). M-of-N keys in multiple locations can really help protect against physical key destruction.
The way the device is closed is hard to duplicate, we seal it in such a way that there is a unique pattern that develops. It's a tricky balance to get without thermally shocking it, and without heating it so much as to damage the chip. It should be nearly impossible (although perhaps the CIA could do it) that you could break the glass in such a way that you could put it back together without it being noticed. The outersleve is uniform in the glass 'flow', with special ribs, so tampering or attempting to 'reassemble' the device after breaking the device would be very obvious.
The middle slug/tube is hard to duplicate as well, but not nearly as hard as the outer construction as one piece. This part though is more mechanically functional in terms of the device appearance and less about security as the user won't really ever interact with the interior until it's broken.
Thanks for the detailed response to my questions above, look forward to hearing more as this moves forward.
One thing to consider is support to backup not just a private key but also a deterministic wallet seed. For those of us that use deterministic wallets this would be more useful IMHO.
One thing to consider is support to backup not just a private key but also a deterministic wallet seed. For those of us that use deterministic wallets this would be more useful IMHO.
I'm thinking to leave the NFC chip open for users to do as they wish and rather offer a guide as to how to potentially program it. I am developing some software, but there is such a variety of ways that a one might want to use the device that it seems perhaps more appropriate to let users work with the chips directly if they please. So yes- Deterministic wallet seeds would be supported as well.
I know you said you don't want to get too specific on price but what you alluded to sounds more than fair to me. Can the glass be colored or does that complicate the process too much?
Yeah, I'm hesitant to talk more about price until I've gotten the device design more clearly set.
Unfortunately, no the glass can not be colored. When I got started with this project, I imagine coloring glass was as easy as adding fruit coloring to jello. Turns out with glass if you get the ratio of color to glass wrong by even the smallest number of molecules the glass becomes extremely brittle or simply shatters. I'm considering other processes- for example the glass tube on the inside has a really special coating to give it the nice color, although it's not colored glass itself. It's much harder to do then I had originally thought. Much more trial and error. :-)
I know you said you don't want to get too specific on price but what you alluded to sounds more than fair to me. Can the glass be colored or does that complicate the process too much?
Thanks for the detailed response to my questions above, look forward to hearing more as this moves forward.
One thing to consider is support to backup not just a private key but also a deterministic wallet seed. For those of us that use deterministic wallets this would be more useful IMHO.
One thing to consider is support to backup not just a private key but also a deterministic wallet seed. For those of us that use deterministic wallets this would be more useful IMHO.
Jump to: