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Topic: A sneak peak at the future of Bitcoin Cold Storage - page 6. (Read 13440 times)

legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1090
Learning the troll avoidance button :)
Looks like a dildo.

Only if it vibrates although duly noted since I did note the sheen it had
(But I guess that is one of the safest ways to hide it ...)

Anyways it should be very durable as crazy_rabbit said unless you use it that way then ...
On that topic is it water proof or water resistant ?
legendary
Activity: 3612
Merit: 1564
Looks like a dildo.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1001
RUM AND CARROTS: A PIRATE LIFE FOR ME
This is very cool, I just dont see how we can be 100% sure that the chips or whatever electronics will still work in 5 years ect, cds, usb sticks, memory cards, are not exactly "long term" in lifetime, why should this last longer?

Well it 'should' last longer, but it's true- any sort of device like this has it's own limits. NFC is pretty durable however, especially if you don't use it very often. If in doubt, sign an 'escape' transaction prior to committing your BTC to the devices, and that should cover you. That said though- i suspect there will have been some big changes in the next 10 years for bitcoin that will probably require some sort of update anyway though.
legendary
Activity: 1851
Merit: 1020
Get Rekt
This is very cool, I just dont see how we can be 100% sure that the chips or whatever electronics will still work in 5 years ect, cds, usb sticks, memory cards, are not exactly "long term" in lifetime, why should this last longer?
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1001
RUM AND CARROTS: A PIRATE LIFE FOR ME
Just to quickly answer a few questions:

It is intended as a long term bitcoin storage solution. It uses NFC technology to hold your data: wireless and no batteries. It is intended to be used in multiples so that a person uses it with multi-sign or duplication to avoid the possibility of electronics failure. It should be completely sealed, and made from glass. Thus waterproof, relatively heat proof, submersible, etc... The glass is fairly durable, but not so durable that you can't break it. The idea is that once your data is written to the NFC chip inside, you lock it permanently, and then to redeem the data inside you must break the device open to obtain the main password to decrypting the device NFC chips which is kept on the inside.

There is still a bit of design testing to do with the device, although this 3rd generation prototype is functional, there are still manufacturing things that need to be solved. So it's back to the foundry! I have one of the most talented product designers for glass in the Czech Republic as the designer, so it's really high end. As for price, not sure yet, but definitely the 100-200 range for a set (min 3) of them is likely, but there is still a bit of work to be done as it's not so simple as I originally thought so I would rather not quote prices.

I am unlikely to mass produce them for a specific reason: These devices are hand made, and a specific part of the process ensures that each individual device is unique and counterfeit proof. It would be next to impossible to make a duplicate device. This is important as it ensures your device is truly yours, meaning that if left alone for 5 years and you come back to find it intact, you can be sure no one has had access to your bitcoin in the meantime. I discuss below why this is valuable. Of course, when it's ready I will make a nice website with product info, etc....

The device is intended to be a bit upmarket and luxury- the first truly luxury bitcoin device. It's beautiful. And by doing in small batches it's also possible to do a fair amount of personalisation.

Packaging will also be important, as they should be shipped shielded so as to be impossible to read by NFC tech in transit, as well as in storage. A proper container would also make it EMP proof by creating a good faraday cage around it. Beyond just solid function, it should also be beautiful.

So, still a number of plans to make before I can really lock down prices or full functionality, but I wanted to start seeing what people were thinking.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
Has an estimated price been established yet? Someone asked if 100-200 was in the ballpark but I don't think that was responded to.
sr. member
Activity: 274
Merit: 250
Really hope it will be commercialized one day . But need to wait for the price to drop tho.

Like smartphones when it first came out
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1024



Whether there's bitcoin in them or not, everybody is going to want one of these!


Yes! My first thought was: "Holy cow! Antimatter now available for recreational use."

Amazing! Following this.


ya.ya.yo!
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
For people who aren't familiar with cold storage, can we get a brief explanation of what purpose this device serves?
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1001
RUM AND CARROTS: A PIRATE LIFE FOR ME
I would love this as a backup of my private keys

Used In conjunction with something like trezor, you should make two versions  Wink

A Trezor with a NFC reader would be very exciting indeed.

EDIT: there is no reason why you couldn't/shouldn't store your Trezor seed inside this device.
sr. member
Activity: 1316
Merit: 253
Sugars.zone | DatingFi - Earn for Posting
I would love this as a backup of my private keys

Used In conjunction with something like trezor, you should make two versions  Wink
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1001
RUM AND CARROTS: A PIRATE LIFE FOR ME

Whether there's bitcoin in them or not, everybody is going to want one of these!


It also doubles as a dildo.

Hahaha. Unintentional similarity, although it is solid glass, and thus easy to sterilise, and I suppose there are a few nasty borders you could cross with this hidden........

Not that I'm advocating anything.  Grin

EDIT: Try that with your paper wallet.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1001
RUM AND CARROTS: A PIRATE LIFE FOR ME
To me the primary attribute for cold storage is durability.

If I print out a deterministic wallet seed key on multiple copies of acid free paper and laminate and store them, this is guaranteed to last centuries (with the exception of theft or destruction). If there is a problem with one copy, others exist. If there are problems with all copies, advanced methods exist to read old paper and extract the information.

So how durable are these things? Do they rely on physical hardware chips? Hardware fails all the time. Additionally are there multiple storage elements inside in case one or more components fail? If all hardware components fail, how can you extract the keys?

My point is cold storage needs to be durable and remove any central points of failure. Without this there is a lot of risk. With paper backups risks are much lower. (Yes there is theft and fire, but these issues exist for this device as well)

All valid points- this device is based off NFC technology which is quite durable. That said however, the idea is to use them in multiples where each one holds the key to one of the private keys required of some m-of-n Multisig transaction. So in this case you can plan for the possibility of failure: a possibility that does exist for paper as well (fire, etc....). The method of failure may be different, but statistically, it's still failure.

 The Multiple storage elements in each case is a good idea though, and should be technically possibly with the newer NFC chips. That would increase reliability although one has to consider what the percent of failure would be related to just the hardware failing versus the whole device being somehow compromised/destroyed/lost/etc....

I don't have anything against paper backups, I think they are a smart and reliable way of storing your bitcoin. That said, I think paper backups have some human disadvantageous that can in themselves lead to loss of bitcoins unintentionally. For one- it's going to be very hard to protect your acid free paper from prying eyes. Even if you put it into a bank vault it will be hard to be sure no one has seen your private keys. Paper wallets have no system to guarantee the integrity of their 'secrets'. Sure you could do things like sign over the envelope opening or use a hologram/wax seal, but these are all pretty easy to defeat in terms of security measures. Additionally, it's going to be very hard to be sure, when you do go to redeem your bitcoins, that you are actually redeeming your original paper wallet, and that it hasn't been swapped out for a decoy at some interim point. An attacker could swap out your encrypted paper wallet for a decoy with some small error in the private key, trick you into attempting to redeem your keys (and observe you entering your password- or even more sneakly, set themselves up to be the person you ask to 'try it themselves' while you freak out that it's not working) take your password and redeem the real copy of the backup.

I've got lots of scenarios like that in my head. :-)

Additionally, paper wallets don't particularly look valuable to non-bitcoin people. I've had paper wallets accidentally thrown out because they looked like trash. A really well done paper wallet should ideally just be a sheet of paper filled with seemingly random characters. That looks like trash to most people, and could get your fortune shredded or trashed without much of a second though. I'm not sure about your bank, but at one of mine, the safe deposit box I have has insurance stipulations attached. This device could help to develop an insurance condition regarding when they consider that your deposit box has been compromised. It's not insignificant that the device is virtually impossible to counterfeit. If your device is intact, in one piece, then you know it's secure. The NFC technology has its own layers of security- you can check to see exactly how many times the device has been scanned. So if your device is in one piece, if it's scan counter is unchanged, if the authenticity stamp inside the chip is correct, then you know with pretty high certainty that your device is still secure. It's hard to say that of a piece of laminated paper.

This device is not only durable in terms of hardware (not as durable as paper, but you have to compensate for that with numbers) but it's also durable itself. It's glass, designed to break when you really intend to break it (IE: with a hammer or something) and looks valuable in-and-of-itself, meaning people are highly unlikely to trash if they just stumble across it. Despite the fact that it has a somewhat familiar "shape" to some people, the device looks unlike anything probably anyone has in their normal life. Meaning it will stand out in any situation.

My device is not a Trezor, offline signing wallet, or piece of paper. It's a device that is intended for a small segment of bitcoiners who would like to add a durable, secure and luxurious addition to their security planning. It looks *really* good. You buy three, keep one at home, one with your lawyer and one in a safe deposit box. Or buy five, and put them on all the continents. If you are paranoid about device failure- you presign a transaction to an escape address and then protect the priv-key of that transaction and escape address in some different fashion. If the device fails, you broadcast the transaction, and the bitcoins move onto your escape address. Of course, the more complicated your security procedure, the more prone to error it might be, but it's doable. Indeed you could encrypt the presigned transaction with the serial from inside the device, meaning you only need the physical remains of the device (not the NFC chip) to decrypt the presigned transaction. This way you keep all your 'secrets' with the devices and need only keep track of them.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100

Whether there's bitcoin in them or not, everybody is going to want one of these!


It also doubles as a dildo.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
Ok so... in 3 brief sentences or less, can someone explain how this works?
full member
Activity: 189
Merit: 100
You are here ---------> but you're not all there.



Whether there's bitcoin in them or not, everybody is going to want one of these!
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1011
In Satoshi I Trust
looks stylish!  Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 1153
Merit: 1000
To me the primary attribute for cold storage is durability.

If I print out a deterministic wallet seed key on multiple copies of acid free paper and laminate and store them, this is guaranteed to last centuries (with the exception of theft or destruction). If there is a problem with one copy, others exist. If there are problems with all copies, advanced methods exist to read old paper and extract the information.

So how durable are these things? Do they rely on physical hardware chips? Hardware fails all the time. Additionally are there multiple storage elements inside in case one or more components fail? If all hardware components fail, how can you extract the keys?

My point is cold storage needs to be durable and remove any central points of failure. Without this there is a lot of risk. With paper backups risks are much lower. (Yes there is theft and fire, but these issues exist for this device as well)
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1001
RUM AND CARROTS: A PIRATE LIFE FOR ME
I saw a little bit of chatter on IRC about the device and wanted to clarify something- It is not made from plastic, it is made from glass. :-)
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 1852
...

@ crazy_rabbit

Your device looks like it will fill a hole in BTC storage options.  Good luck!  Once you are in reliable production, keep us informed!

I like very much your idea of EMP-proof packaging.  Make your device very tough too!
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