a society question about vegans - page 4.

iluvbitcoins

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Quote from: franky1 on November 11, 2019, 04:36:47 PM

Quote from: iluvbitcoins on November 11, 2019, 02:41:05 PM

Considering this it's really weird to see vegans live longer lives on average.
I think there's reasonable suspicion to think it might have something to do with the average vegans healthy lifestyle in contrast to the average meat-eater.

considering veganism is coined in 1944 (75 years ago) its not actually got to a stage of proving 'live longer' as the average age of any human diet is higher than vegan age.

by the way there are some people that smoke all their lives and live until 100+ .. but that does not mean on average smoking makes you live longer, obviously

what you also find out is things like people who want a 'healthy lifestyle' usually ensure they go to have their regular doctor checkups and they examine their body more often. nothing to do with diet but just general awareness of health. where as some people who dont care about health just avoid the doctors as its inconvenient.
thus without even discussing what type of food goes into someones mouth. stats would show the health conscious people would show as having their doctor find cancers earlier than someone not health conscious.. simply because the stats sway to the health conscious people simply turning up for health checkups. emphasis nothing to do with diet

There's this
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/vegan-meat-life-expectancy-eggs-dairy-research-a7168036.html

There's this. It shows lower mortality rates with those taking plant protein vs animal protein. But it's about substituting animal protein for plant protein. I wonder how easy it is for vegans to intake the same amount of plant protein that we do by eating meat. Would you take enough naturally?

merchantofzeny

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I think what would change is that all the land used for livestock and growing feeds could be switched to farms or maybe converted to other uses. Not sure what to do with all the farm animals once they get phased out.

Maybe the change can be gradual, with meat getting more and more expensive as meat substitutes get better and cheaper and then eventually only a few breeders remain.

Quote from: styca on November 12, 2019, 01:47:11 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

The reason we have some teeth is, for us to be able to munch some meat. how do can they deny that we as a human being doesn't need to eat meat because of some belief that doesn't have a root.

We have evolved to be omnivores. It's natural that we eat meat, yes. Our bodies need the nutrients that are in meat.
However - doesn't mean that we can't get those nutrients elsewhere, doesn't mean we can't eat a healthy non-meat diet.
Veganism is not natural for humans. But it's not natural that we have cars and computers, it's not natural that we have glasses to correct our eyesight, etc etc.

I might go full vegan once we can have lab-grown meat that have the same taste and texture as real meat.

styca

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Quote from: ?? on ??

The reason we have some teeth is, for us to be able to munch some meat. how do can they deny that we as a human being doesn't need to eat meat because of some belief that doesn't have a root.

We have evolved to be omnivores. It's natural that we eat meat, yes. Our bodies need the nutrients that are in meat.
However - doesn't mean that we can't get those nutrients elsewhere, doesn't mean we can't eat a healthy non-meat diet.
Veganism is not natural for humans. But it's not natural that we have cars and computers, it's not natural that we have glasses to correct our eyesight, etc etc.

Mometaskers

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Quote from: guigui371 on November 10, 2019, 11:55:02 PM

snip

Too long to quote all. But yes, we don't need meat on a daily basis. I'd still eat fish though if I can't get mammal meat, I just don't feel full without animal protein.

As for rotten meat being poisonous, that's common sense. Grin

Fresh meat can be eaten raw without much problems (parasites aside but you can also get those from raw veggies too like the kimchi scandal years ago), we just can't absorb everything from it in that raw form (hence cooking).

Personally I don't intend to go against my biology. My teeth shows I'm an omnivore and I'll eat plants and animals as I need and want. I don't allow neither vegans nor paleos to ruin my meal for me.

I saw talks on the thread about Vit B12. If one wants to get it from animals, they actually have to eat the offals too, the meat don't have much of it. I haven't researched where to get it from plant sources but iirc malt and brewer's yeast have B vitamins. And also beer. Beer is always good.

guigui371

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Quote from: franky1 on November 11, 2019, 08:07:55 PM

Quote from: guigui371 on November 11, 2019, 07:23:56 PM

Quote from: franky1 on November 11, 2019, 06:24:15 PM

however
i would like to see studies of non-socially deprived, non food supplimented/fortified vegans vs those of balanced meat and 2 veg diet

I want to point out that in many many countries, animals bred for human consumption are B12 deficient and that vets have to inject them with B12. (google if you don't believe me)

If industrial didn't inject B12 into your meat you would also be B12 deficient and would need supplements.

i get my food from a local farm. i eat meat knowing its straight frozen and not injected with upto50% extra brine to add weight. the veg is like a sack of spuds with the dirt still on, same with carrots. and yes i dont scrub my spuds clean i just rinse them off to get the excess dirt off. so yea id say i still eat a bit of dirt that stuff like b12 converted from.
i love cooking potato skins. nothing beats proper crispy potato skins. no walkers/lays(crisps/chips) can even come close

and my b12 is fine

Well in your case, i would say that the meat you buy is of far better quality than most.
The vegetable you gets are of very high quality and have all the nutriment you need

And if you get meat from a local farm, the carbon footprint is not as big as other consumers.
Kudos to you !

The next step, would be to do a little bit more research about the benefits of cutting down meat and eating more veges.

franky1

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Quote from: styca on November 11, 2019, 06:55:33 PM

I'm kind of on the fence about your relative. If he farts a lot more, then that methane contributes to global warming, which is bad, but if the farting is sufficient that he can propel himself through the city by ass-power then that reduces his fossil-fuel footprint, so is good.

its good to have laughter
as for global warming. destruction of rainforests, concerting,tarmacing, asphalting land and then having houses and roads where rain is not allowed to sit to evaporate but to instead drain into underground pipes and sewers means less vapour in the air.

sorry but water vapour is more of a temperature controller than carbon/methane
ask yourself why is a rainforest not called a carbon or oxygen forest

franky1

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Quote from: guigui371 on November 11, 2019, 07:23:56 PM

Quote from: franky1 on November 11, 2019, 06:24:15 PM

however
i would like to see studies of non-socially deprived, non food supplimented/fortified vegans vs those of balanced meat and 2 veg diet

I want to point out that in many many countries, animals bred for human consumption are B12 deficient and that vets have to inject them with B12. (google if you don't believe me)

If industrial didn't inject B12 into your meat you would also be B12 deficient and would need supplements.

i get my food from a local farm. i eat meat knowing its straight frozen and not injected with upto50% extra brine to add weight. the veg is like a sack of spuds with the dirt still on, same with carrots. and yes i dont scrub my spuds clean i just rinse them off to get the excess dirt off. so yea id say i still eat a bit of dirt that stuff like b12 converted from.
i love cooking potato skins. nothing beats proper crispy potato skins. no walkers/lays(crisps/chips) can even come close

and my b12 is fine

guigui371

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Quote from: franky1 on November 11, 2019, 06:24:15 PM

however
i would like to see studies of non-socially deprived, non food supplimented/fortified vegans vs those of balanced meat and 2 veg diet

I want to point out that in many many countries, animals bred for human consumption are B12 deficient and that vets have to inject them with B12. (google if you don't believe me)

If industrial didn't inject B12 into your meat you would also be B12 deficient and would need supplements.

styca

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Quote from: franky1 on November 11, 2019, 06:24:15 PM

anecdotally, i have a relative that went veggie. h started to get the flu less.. but that might b due to it being harder to cater to his food demands (fussy eater) and how he farted alot more.. so we didnt visit him as much thus we didnt pass him the bugs as much

however
i would like to see studies of non-socially deprived, non food supplimented/fortified vegans vs those of balanced meat and 2 veg diet

Yes, I'd like to see some proper studies too. Non-biased stuff with high numbers of participants.

I'm kind of on the fence about your relative. If he farts a lot more, then that methane contributes to global warming, which is bad, but if the farting is sufficient that he can propel himself through the city by ass-power then that reduces his fossil-fuel footprint, so is good.

Have a merit because you made me laugh

franky1

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Quote from: styca on November 11, 2019, 04:58:39 PM

Anecdotally, I used to have quite a few colds in winter time - but I've not had any at all in the 10 years I've been vegan.
Appreciate this is hardly conclusive evidence though. We do need proper large scale studies before we can really conclude that veganism is healthier. What works for one person doesn't necessarily for others.

anecdotally, i have a relative that went veggie. h started to get the flu less.. but that might b due to it being harder to cater to his food demands (fussy eater) and how he farted alot more.. so we didnt visit him as much thus we didnt pass him the bugs as much

however
i would like to see studies of non-socially deprived, non food supplimented/fortified vegans vs those of balanced meat and 2 veg diet

styca

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Anecdotally, I used to have quite a few colds in winter time - but I've not had any at all in the 10 years I've been vegan.
Appreciate this is hardly conclusive evidence though. We do need proper large scale studies before we can really conclude that veganism is healthier. What works for one person doesn't necessarily for others.

franky1

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Quote from: iluvbitcoins on November 11, 2019, 02:41:05 PM

Considering this it's really weird to see vegans live longer lives on average.
I think there's reasonable suspicion to think it might have something to do with the average vegans healthy lifestyle in contrast to the average meat-eater.

considering veganism is coined in 1944 (75 years ago) its not actually got to a stage of proving 'live longer' as the average age of any human diet is higher than vegan age.

by the way there are some people that smoke all their lives and live until 100+ .. but that does not mean on average smoking makes you live longer, obviously

what you also find out is things like people who want a 'healthy lifestyle' usually ensure they go to have their regular doctor checkups and they examine their body more often. nothing to do with diet but just general awareness of health. where as some people who dont care about health just avoid the doctors as its inconvenient.
thus without even discussing what type of food goes into someones mouth. stats would show the health conscious people would show as having their doctor find cancers earlier than someone not health conscious.. simply because the stats sway to the health conscious people simply turning up for health checkups. emphasis nothing to do with diet

styca

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Quote from: iluvbitcoins on November 11, 2019, 02:41:05 PM

Considering this it's really weird to see vegans live longer lives on average.
I think there's reasonable suspicion to think it might have something to do with the average vegans healthy lifestyle in contrast to the average meat-eater.

It could well be, yes, after all, we all know correlation does not imply causation

Some people (me included) do think that vegan diets are healthier... but this doesn't have to be true. It just needs the right sort of person to believe it's true.
If some people who want a healthier lifestyle believe vegan=healthy, that will be enough to make them go vegan, and presumably they'll also be taking up other healthy activities, running etc, which will make them live longer on average.

iluvbitcoins

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Quote from: franky1 on November 11, 2019, 02:44:28 AM

Quote from: styca on November 11, 2019, 02:15:10 AM

As a vegan you can get plenty of protein from tofu and the various 'meat replacement' products, it's not just beans and lentils.
But a vegan diet is not 100% complete - you miss out on B12 and (in my country, not in some others) iodine.
I can get those in some fortified soy milks, but if I'm not having enough soy milk I do sometimes supplement with B12 pills.

you need to eat 750g of tofu vs 240g of meat to get same protein requirement
you need to eat 1kg of tofu vs 240g of meat to get same fat requirement
you need to eat 3.5kg of tofu vs 1kg of meat to get the same calories requirement

so on average you need to eat more than 3x of tofu than meat to use tofu as a replacement
(triple decker tofu quarter pounder burger instead of a quarter pounder beef burger)

also tofu/soy then requires people to eat 'fortified'(chemically added in manufacturing) soy/tofu products
which as anyone know if something needs to be added via supplements or manufacturing. then obviously the bas product is very deficient in those nutrients naturally

so going full tofu or 'organic soy' (not fortified) can be worse than eating meat.
especially with the lengthier digestion times to convert the nutrients and the larger amounts needing to be consumed, can make you feel uncomfortable

so its about finding a balanced meat and 2 veg diet(portion: meat1:2veg) for the best balanced non fortified/supplemented diet

Considering this it's really weird to see vegans live longer lives on average.
I think there's reasonable suspicion to think it might have something to do with the average vegans healthy lifestyle in contrast to the average meat-eater.

franky1

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Quote from: styca on November 11, 2019, 02:15:10 AM

As a vegan you can get plenty of protein from tofu and the various 'meat replacement' products, it's not just beans and lentils.
But a vegan diet is not 100% complete - you miss out on B12 and (in my country, not in some others) iodine.
I can get those in some fortified soy milks, but if I'm not having enough soy milk I do sometimes supplement with B12 pills.

you need to eat 750g of tofu vs 240g of meat to get same protein requirement
you need to eat 1kg of tofu vs 240g of meat to get same fat requirement
you need to eat 3.5kg of tofu vs 1kg of meat to get the same calories requirement

so on average you need to eat more than 3x of tofu than meat to use tofu as a replacement
(triple decker tofu quarter pounder burger instead of a quarter pounder beef burger)

also tofu/soy then requires people to eat 'fortified'(chemically added in manufacturing) soy/tofu products
which as anyone know if something needs to be added via supplements or manufacturing. then obviously the bas product is very deficient in those nutrients naturally

so going full tofu or 'organic soy' (not fortified) can be worse than eating meat.
especially with the lengthier digestion times to convert the nutrients and the larger amounts needing to be consumed, can make you feel uncomfortable

so its about finding a balanced meat and 2 veg diet(portion: meat1:2veg) for the best balanced non fortified/supplemented diet

styca

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As a vegan you can get plenty of protein from tofu and the various 'meat replacement' products, it's not just beans and lentils.
But a vegan diet is not 100% complete - you miss out on B12 and (in my country, not in some others) iodine.
I can get those in some fortified soy milks, but if I'm not having enough soy milk I do sometimes supplement with B12 pills.

guigui371

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Quote from: Mometaskers on November 10, 2019, 10:54:12 PM

Checked back on this thread to see what's new. I'd probably watch that docu you recommended later, thanks for the suggestion. About the protein in veggies, would the body be able to use all of them up?

Check the docu, it is great, they basically take the stories of high performing athletes that went vegans.
I don't know if the body is able to use them all up, but I am pretty sure that the human body is not able to process all the protein in meat anyway.

Quote from: Mometaskers on November 10, 2019, 10:54:12 PM

Among people that are willing to go part-time vegetarian the main question is if the amino acids in the veggies are bioavailable.

You will be suprised to hear that on earth billions of people dont have meat everyday and are very healthy.

Quote from: Mometaskers on November 10, 2019, 10:54:12 PM

Another one is that some people are saying that plant products can block the absorption of certain nutrients, especially legumes (some are even poisonous if not prepared properly).

Yeah a few vegges are not edible raw (like potatoes, pumpinks ....
But on the other hand, almost all the meat could be poisonous if left in the sun and then eaten raw.
And if you don;t gutter well the animal, you can also have food poisoning.

Quote from: Mometaskers on November 10, 2019, 10:54:12 PM

I'm kinda wary of going full vegan because of that. I remember seeing "slimming" iced tea mixes in the grocery that supposedly have bean extracts to block carb absorption. Also heard of an issue with people that went overboard on kale juice. Just to be safe I avoid legumes during days that I workout.

Being vegan doesnt mean eating 1 type of food only or going full steam on Kale.
Also being vegan or vegetarian is not synonym of "healthy" food.

You could eat everyday french fries and Oreos, you are vegan but this is a terrible diet.

To be fair, I don;t really believe going 100% vegan.
If you have meat/fish once or twice a week (out of 21 meals) you get most of the advantages of a plant based diet without being judged as a extremist Grin

Mometaskers

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Quote from: guigui371 on November 10, 2019, 09:07:41 PM

Quote from: franky1 on November 10, 2019, 07:22:46 PM

Quote from: guigui371 on November 10, 2019, 04:37:11 PM

snip

Chickpeas has 19g of protein for 100g of chickpea, I personally love Hummus.
Fallafel has 13g of protein for 100g, so you basically need twice as much fallafel than Beef steak.

But yes you are right, brocoli has 2.8g of protein per 100g.

Checked back on this thread to see what's new. I'd probably watch that docu you recommended later, thanks for the suggestion. About the protein in veggies, would the body be able to use all of them up?

Among people that are willing to go part-time vegetarian the main question is if the amino acids in the veggies are bioavailable. Another one is that some people are saying that plant products can block the absorption of certain nutrients, especially legumes (some are even poisonous if not prepared properly).

I'm kinda wary of going full vegan because of that. I remember seeing "slimming" iced tea mixes in the grocery that supposedly have bean extracts to block carb absorption. Also heard of an issue with people that went overboard on kale juice. Just to be safe I avoid legumes during days that I workout.

guigui371

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Quote from: franky1 on November 10, 2019, 07:22:46 PM

Quote from: guigui371 on November 10, 2019, 04:37:11 PM

Has anyone see the netflix documentary called "Game changers" ?

with meat being 25% protein it means 240g of meat
(2 quarter pounders)

so that UFC fighter eating 2kg of steak each day was eating way more protein than needed(500g)
however vegetables only have 3% protein. meaning you need to eat 2kg of vegetables just to get 60g of protein

Chickpeas has 19g of protein for 100g of chickpea, I personally love Hummus.
Fallafel has 13g of protein for 100g, so you basically need twice as much fallafel than Beef steak.

But yes you are right, brocoli has 2.8g of protein per 100g.

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Quote from: franky1 on November 10, 2019, 07:22:46 PM

its all about finding the right balance
if you can handle 2kg of veg a day, go for it. or find a balance that suits you either less veg and more supplements or a fair balance of 'meat and 2 veg' medium size plate twice a day

Bad idea. I saw a vlog of a kind where a guy told his story of his dietary experiments. He was trying different things like a diet with a lot of fiber and this caused a severe case of intestine irritation where he'd bloat up a lot and be in pain all the time and the thing that helped him was a meat diet. He basically ate beef all day and got rid of the problem as beef is a rather clean meat with no additives and hormones.
Greens are great for you but in moderation. I once tried to eat a lot of fibers and my only achievement was constipation. Everything is good in moderation.

Topic: a society question about vegans - page 4. (Read 825 times)