Topic: Alpha Technology Litecoin (Scrypt) ASIC Miner Order Batch 1 Now! - page 178. (Read 529056 times)

Geez, who said that?  If they had proof I'm sure they would have forwarded it to the proper authorities and they would be behind bars.  What a bunch of BS imho.  Actually, I heard Fiaz was actually a trained assassin from the future sent back in time to scam people to help fund the revolt against the alien invasion.    So my contribution is actually helping mankind.  You guys will thank me later.

fyi, I am a customer, I've paid a deposit but haven't paid the remainder (still undecided).  As the saying goes don't invest what you're not willing to lose. 

This too is the part that had me stumped.  I think I'm going to try giving their offices a call again in the next day or two and see if I can get something other than an answering machine.

Your hunch is definitely probable. When they first started trying to earn business, their history and address were questioned, as the company had been around in various forms ( a few name changes, the same family ) for awhile, 10-20 years depending on how you viewed the data. Considering they haven't expanded much in that time, I'd imagine they do enough to pay bills, or use whatever high profits they make for their personal lives. Some folks early on even said they could share data showing a connection to some of the terror cells, but that was entirely hearsay.

For sure they're a small business, and regardless of their original intentions, it appears they're doing everything they can to cover their tails. Especially in the last 48 hours with the multitude of posts being erased from this thread. I hope for a good eventuality, but weren't they supposed to provide an update Monday (yesterday their time) ? I think that's what they said, and unless I'm mistaken, it's past Monday and I saw no emails or updates.

Correct.  This is quoted straight from their TOS:

"We shall not be liable to you for any loss of profit or for indirect or consequential loss suffered by you whether as a result of any breach of these terms by us or as a result of our negligence...",

and there are a few similar lines in there. 

Now I don't know how it is in the UK but in the US no matter what you put in a contract, you are still liable for outright fraud, and it wouldn't surprise me if the UK is the same (I think generally UK has better consumer protection laws than US).  But on the other hand, looking at how they are skirting the law with the refunds, one can assume they would do the same thing here, and that it would take lawsuits to actually enforce. 

My personal guess is, they will refuse refunds to everyone, and if they get sued and eventually have to give back some of the money they consider that an acceptable loss, as it won't be all of it (many people won't press the issue) and even if they do have to give back, they got interest free loans to build their cloud mining operation. 

Look at that, people aside from myself are noticing he's wiping his tracks clean. Yet another area of concern. So did I read that correctly? In the fine print they're saying they can't be held responsible, even if it's due to their own negligence? That's usually not a legal term of agreement in most countries with OEM's.

I just went through the thread and Fiaz has removed every single one of his posts.

Fiaz has posted conflicting statements regarding Alpha's finances. Stating here on 22 may:

"We did try to hold it off as much as possible (despite cries on this forum for final payment) but taking it now will allow us to order crucial components earlier so we can start large scale all at once. "

Then this on the 19th June:

"I assure you we have enough funds, some may forget but when we started we had no competition for a long time, if there are any sales to be had in Scrypt mining we would be the ones with them"

I'm not sure whether he's trying to hide this and other conflicting statements he's made, or just just being childish but it seems pretty unprofessional to remove all of your spokesperson's posts.

If we are to take him at his word and assume Alpha have taken enough final payments to finish production then I suggest anyone still waiting to pay, wait until Alpha have a test unit hashing. That should be in a couple of weeks, if they are on track for a July delivery.
As you will have 2 weeks after they set up a payment processor to send the final payment you can do this without penalty and considerably minimise your risk.

Well I don't see how you can just dismiss point one considering that is the one we have argued about the most.  And arguably is the most important.  The *only* thing these devices do is mine scrypt.  Exactly how much they mine is completely dependent on when they are delivered.  Had these devices shipped April first, they would have been worth a fortune.  If they ship September 30th, they will be near worthless.  Kind of makes a huge difference no?  Would be like sending 10K to coinbase to purchase bitcoins and not caring how many they send you.
Regarding your question:

"This sounds like something you would do and you are projecting it onto others. I would ship them off because I honor my word. Life is not about making as much money as I can. We reap what we sow. I'm not sure how you can judge AT when you are basically saying you would do something that you are accusing them of, because, well, it is the "natural" thing to do."

You completely miss the point.  They ARE honoring their word!  There is nothing dishonest about it.  They never promised (in any sort of legally binding way anyways) a delivery date.  The closest they came to one is September 30th shipping date.  I think you misunderstand my posts.  I am not judging them.  Frankly, I think they were too stupid to pull off what should have been easy money but their plan itself was brilliant (albeit, stolen from others).  The entire reason I posted what I did is because I DO trust them to do their best to fulfill the terms of the contract.  On the other hand, I think many people such as yourself didn't actually pay any attention at all to what it was they were actually promising when you sent them all that money. 

Now I DO think they were disingenuous at best regarding what they posted on the forums and stuff.  But remember these were sales people.  That's what salespeople do.  They paint their product in the best possible light.  What I was simply suggesting was to not simply take them at their "off the record" word, but look at what they were willing to put on the record.  If a person tells you over and over and over again that something will ship by a certain date they are 100 percent sure of it, BUT they won't sign that into the contract, obviously they aren't nearly as sure of it as they are saying. 
Where I disagree with you is, you seem perfectly willing to take their sales people's promises at face value.  I on the other hand ask myself, if they are so sure of the specs and delivery dates, why aren't they willing to sign to that?  This has nothing to do with my personal honesty.  Simply my experience in the business world has been over and over again, that nothing anyone says is worth a damn, the only thing worth a damn is what it says in the contract.  I guess we will have to agree to disagree.  I can promise you though I get ripped off less often then you

Thanks for pointing that out.

I understand they are not going to guarantee a delivery date. I don't have a problem with point 1.  Point 2 could be a bit worrying as if those chips are not up to spec due to the nature of the quicker turn around, we are stuck. Point 3 sucks.

But what truly has me a bit worried now is what I posted above, all of Apha's posts here have been deleted (minus the quotes). That is unsettling. So, my point above about waiting for final payment until something is ready to be shipped (with CE certification) is poignant now.

IAS

ps - You didn't answer my projection question. Albeit, that is an uncomfy one.

To be honest, I completely missed your post.  To answer your questions, the concerning parts are:

1.  Regarding the delivery date, they keep promising these will ship in July.  But, if you read the terms of the contract, there is NO delivery date to be found anywhere!  The *closest* stating a delivery date is as follows:
"We are currently working hard to ensure that the products will be available for delivery as soon as possible, and hope to have them available for shipping in the second or third quarter of 2014"

Now, that isn't a guarantee.  They could ship these things next year and still claim they did their best.  But let's give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they stick to the tentative dates set forth in the contract.  They could still ship these things September 30th and then claim to have shipped them right on time (Q3). 

2.  Regarding what you actually get.  They promise you 5, 50, 250Mh/s or whatever the numbers they are using now are. Notice this key phrase:
"Be advised that due to the nature of their development our products are subject to change and the final device may be different to what was advertised to you whether on our site or elsewhere."

3.  And of course the escape clause: 
"We shall not be liable to you for any loss of profit or for indirect or consequential loss suffered by you whether as a result of any breach of these terms by us or as a result of our negligence."

In other words, if they completely breach the contract (hard to do, since they aren't required to do much of anything but still), even if they purposefully screw you over and ship late, there is nothing you can do.  You agreed to not hold them liable even if it is their fault, and even if they do it on purpose. 

That is correct, it is illegal under UK law from what I understand.  Alpha Tech has previously stated they are challenging the illegality though which means they aren't willingly going to do the refund accept as it is written in the contract.  I would encourage him to pursue his legal options regarding the refund; someone posted instructions a few pages back.  The reason I mentioned it is because he said "kind of curious...".  I was simply pointing out where that came from.

Brian, if you recall, I asked you about this here: "I'm not sure about the way the contract is worded. Can you post what it is that you are talking about?" https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.7454111 And now you are taking a shot at me?

You really seem to like to jab at me. I asked you a few questions on that same page (here https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.7449856 and you seemed to just jump over them. Since you're in a playing mood, maybe you can have a go at them now. Here, at least answer the one that mattered.

It looks like all posts from Fiaz https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/fiaz-alphatechnology-220493 have been deleted!


I wrote the following before finding that all posts appear to have been deleted. But it still stands... sort of.

A solution I would find amiable to all parties involved, considering that they have enough funds as stated above, is for Alpha Technology to not require payment until they are ready to ship units. This of course would involve having a working unit to show us and boxed units ready to go out the door. This insures the customer as far as the units being ready to go and on time. Also, the units would need CE certification (I'm unsure of this, Vesperwillow brought it up and it sounds important.) This benefits Alpha Technology as they stated they have enough funds and so it is a good faith action on their part.

IAS

A/ that contract term is not legally valid under UK law, so it means nothing. If they don't deliver the goods he's entitled to a full refund, and the CC card will most likely agree with that.

B/ he said he paid the remaining 70% within the last few weeks, I don't see anything in the contract about that not being refundable.

It's right in the contract:

" You may cancel your order at any point within the five month period following the date on which we received payment of your deposit (provided that your product has not yet shipped)."

Hey, Its About Sharing, looks like they do plan on enforcing that pesky ole contract after all huh?  Imagine that.

Dispute with your credit card? I think I'm about to go the same route, thankfully I paid with CC, although I used Discover hope they'll be as good about charging it back as AMEX seem to be. 

Just got a response from Alpha-t regarding my asking for refund options.  According to the e-mail since I placed the order > 5 months ago I basically don't have any :/

Kind of curious given I made final 70% payment within the last few weeks.  Getting the feeling I won't be seeing these satoshi's again :/

Aside from the fact they're a multi-million dollar corporation with investors who have deep pockets, they own a building next to an assembly line, are owned and operated by senior electronics design and engineers with more individual experience than all of AT's put together and multiplied by a random factor, and are partnered with chip/electronics/assembly folk, and have done it in the past?

You're kidding right, you're trying to compare KNC to a mom and pop shop with apparent money flow issues and a 20 year history of changing company names and ownership, which clearly never "took off" and left their roots but merely barely stayed afloat and paid their bills?

It also sounds like you're not familiar with the EU process of being an electronics OEM. As has been stated several times in the past, it doesn't matter if they include a [certified] PSU or require the customer to provide their own--if the device uses electricity, the device itself has to be certified. It sounds like they may be opting for a self-certification path to speedline the delivery process, but that doesn't come without issues. At the first sign of device issue, customs will stop import/export of their equipment. And device issue could be as simple as, running outside of the original design spec, not just your house burning down. Third party certification, which is what all of the top OEM's used, takes much, much longer, and requires assembled devices to be shipped to the certifying authority. It's one of the delays which caused issue for Cointerra and HashFast.

I also never said AT couldn't simply assemble gear, sure they could. They could put pieces together like a LEGO kit, anyone can do that. But if you're going to compare KNC to AT, then do it right. Aside from the expertise and money difference, look at it this way:

* Highest possible quality ASIC batch, tested and verified: KNC yes, AT no

* Decided to go with "quality and output may vary" chips: KNC no, AT yes

* Decided it was better to be 3 weeks late and provide the best quality product to its customers, rather than pay more to have crappier chips shipped faster: KNC yes, AT no

* Case design finalized long before assembly: KNC yes, AT no

* Mainboard design finalized long before assembly: KNC yes, AT no

* Controller boards finalized before assembly: KNC yes, AT no

* Main/Controller board PCB stress and quality checks completed before tapeout: KNC yes, AT no

* Major design changes at the last minute: KNC no, AT yes

* Feature removal throughout the whole timeline, especially last minute: KNC no, AT yes

* Frequent and smooth customer interaction and communication throughout the whole timeline: KNC yes, AT no

* Had no qualms about providing full refunds up to the very day of shipment: KNC yes, AT no

* Changed Terms of Service, Terms of Agreement and redefined their scope of intended audience: KNC no, AT yes

* Is operating outside of the laws with regard to business practices, returns, etc: KNC no, AT yes

That list could go on. But please, do tell everyone that I'm making stuff up and I'm trying to piss all over someone's daisies.

KNC had their supplimental PCB equipment not only designed, but screened and in their hand, and then assembled, long before their tapeout process had even completed. They were able to burn them in for stress tests and continue tweaking performance while waiting for delivery of the chips for final assembly. They even had cases and PCB's already assembled.

I'm not sure how long you've been around since you popped out of nowhere and started defending AT, which is suspicious in itself since you're pointing fingers, but I was around before KNC, and followed them from day 1 as well. There's a night and day difference between the operations.

So before drawing comparison, you might want to share with the class where the hell you're getting off talking to folks about FUD and pointing fingers, and why AT can do it  without any issues just because a much larger more experienced company can do it.


For those who know me, they know it's part of my hobby. I research, I do analysis, I make projections. I'm not an Oracle, but to date I've rarely been wrong, and not often off by much. Search through my thread history and prove me wrong if you're that interested. I've never paid a dime to any OEM shipping mining gear, the few SHA-mining boxes I got were through people offloading them. I setup a KNC reseller account hoping to perhaps grab a free box (knowing it wouldn't ROI if I'd paid for it), and to share part of its profits with charities.

Aside from that, I have my own gear I've assembled for mining purposes.

So yeah. Not sure what your deal is, but since you're the expert, I'll let you handle things.

Why then could KNC then go from receiving chips to shipping Jupiter's within a week.  As they didn't build PSU's into their devices.  With AlphaT shipping off shelf and already certified external PSU's separately they could quite well possibly do very similar if they know what they're doing.

Are you really posting just out of charity for the good of the 'poor' and 'scammed' customers, really?