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Topic: Analysis and list of top big blocks shills (XT #REKT ignorers) - page 47. (Read 46564 times)

legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 3191
Leave no FUD unchallenged
Only the charlatans are not brave/honest enough to come up with a proper name and instead leech on bitcoin's name notoriety.

Only the authoritarians are not brave/honest enough to live by the free market they claim they espouse to.  People calling themselves libertarians, but demanding protectionism in what's supposed to be an open and permissionless system, free from restrictions.  I'm pretty left wing myself, you'd probably even call me "statist", but apparently even I have more stomach for an open market than you do, coward.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002

Quote
bitcoin unlimited, as in unlimited blocksize..

He was told so often that BU is NOT about an unlimited blocksize. It's about user's voice. With BU you, as a node, can even vote for smaller blocks, and when things come as they come and 1 MB blocks are too much for miners and nodes, they would be cut to say 0.8 with BU. As you wish small blocks and high fees, BU would give you the option to express this by setting the blocklimit. If miners think the same blocks will ever kept small.

But to be honest, the economic theory behind BU is that there already is a fee market whose mechanics are the orphans. There is a paper from Peter_R about it. It says a fee market doesn't need no blocklimit. But I think he didn't took the relay network into perspective, so this fee market currently doesn't exist, but maybe will exist with bigger blocks.



About user's voice..
The economic theory that there is already a fee market..
A paper from Peter R..

LMAO.


edit: how about a fork which let the user decide the block reward or bitcoin's cap? Choice is freedom! derp?!

edit edit: needless to say, a fork is an altcoin. Only the charlatans are not brave/honest enough to come up with a proper name and instead leech on bitcoin's name notoriety.
sr. member
Activity: 409
Merit: 286
what is this Bitcoin BU every one is excited about?

It's a currently consensus compatible fork of core that give the user the choice to set their own limits. Miners can choose how big their blocks are, and nodes can chose how much traffic they spent and what maximum blocks they accept. So under some conditions BU will change consensur critical rule of core and start a hard fork.

If a miners releases a block with 1.1 MB and your node just accepts blocks untill 1 MB, your node keeps both chains untill the chain with the bigger block reaches some user-configurable depth. Then your node assumes that this chain is correct and jumps to it.

Fans of BU claim that it would lead to an emerging consensus about the blocksize and that with BU the market decides the blocksize, not any kind of politbureu-developers (not matter if core or gavin or mike or jeff).

Critics of BU say it can't work cause of game theory and some attack scenarios. Also some say it would weaken the confirmation consensus if nodes are capable of keeping two chains separate for some blocks.

The developer behind BU is theZerg, who refuses to post on bitcointalk cause he and his mates have been banned cause they discussed forking bitcoin. Another one behind BU is Peter_R, who has recently banned and unbanned from reddit and character assasinated by the usual suspectives. He recenly said - what I think is very interesting - that BU is the only client that can deal with forks and if we expect a scenario with chaotic hardforks, BU can help to deal with it.

theZerg said to me his orginal idea is to take as much as possible out of the consensus to make Bitcoin more flexible and to create an open environment for open development. This could help to develop bitcoin without hard- or softforks and envision a scenario where a very few consensus critical things, like the 21M limit, will never be changed while everything else is on a continuous vote.

There is a thread on bitcointalk in which Adam Backs wantet to review BU. In the end some posts have been deleted by commentators and even Adam Back confirmed that bitcointalk is not a neutral place to disuss things. After talking wih Lauda and after my personal experiences I don't share this. But I'd think there are indicators that Adam Back didn't want to review BU independently, but made his judgement bevore the discussion even startet (on reddit he said a few minutes after his initial post on bitcointalk that BU was already broken, without proofing his claim).

The thread is quiet interesting and, if you ignore the usual small block militia (that insults, prejuduices and dumbly repeats problems answered pages bevore) you have an interesting read
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-unlimited-seeks-review-1312371

edit: an example for small block militias reading competence is hdbuck right here

Quote
bitcoin unlimited, as in unlimited blocksize..

He was told so often that BU is NOT about an unlimited blocksize. It's about user's voice. With BU you, as a node, can even vote for smaller blocks, and when things come as they come and 1 MB blocks are too much for miners and nodes, they would be cut to say 0.8 with BU. As you wish small blocks and high fees, BU would give you the option to express this by setting the blocklimit. If miners think the same blocks will ever kept small.

But to be honest, the economic theory behind BU is that there already is a fee market whose mechanics are the orphans. There is a paper from Peter_R about it. It says a fee market doesn't need no blocklimit. But I think he didn't took the relay network into perspective, so this fee market currently doesn't exist, but maybe will exist with bigger blocks.

sr. member
Activity: 593
Merit: 250
Can I add Coinbase? It is one of the biggest  wallet providers. He is one fan of XT and is testing XT at its server. Check here http://bitcoinist.net/coinbase-tests-bitcoin-xt-removed-bitcoin-org/
So it is removed from bitcoin.org
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
block hard limit increased to 2mb (allowing for more than 2mb potential for SW lite wallet)

the relay data is by default set to send signatures. even with SW miners. but anyone can if they are SW upgraded, can handshake with their peer to not request signatures as a non-default option. allowing old clients to still have some purpose, (no immediate castrations) while fanboys betatest new implementations live. and review if the masses should upgrade afterwards
I have already suggested a combination of 2 MB and Segwit. According to other sources this combination would be the same as a direct increase of the block size to 4 MB which is generally not believe to be safe (again, not my words) until some better technologies are implemented like IBLT. IMO the lack of conversation between users and developers is kind of bad. I've only tried to contact some of them a few times on IRC but have had only luck once (for only a few questions). Maybe Segwit would be properly explained and people like you wouldn't fight it.

This is where having multiple alternative implementations becomes very important for the governance mechanism of Bitcoin to work effectively.
I still disagree with this. Just because you are in disagreement with their way of scaling (for '16) that does not mean that multiple alternative implementations are necessary/important. Technically if SegWit works properly we should have enough time to increase the block size in late 2016/early 2017.

Imma replace my Core node with BU.
Welcome to the dark side Luke.


what is this Bitcoin BU every one is excited about?


bitcoin unlimited, as in unlimited blocksize..

whatver rocks the derps bloat.
legendary
Activity: 883
Merit: 1005
block hard limit increased to 2mb (allowing for more than 2mb potential for SW lite wallet)

the relay data is by default set to send signatures. even with SW miners. but anyone can if they are SW upgraded, can handshake with their peer to not request signatures as a non-default option. allowing old clients to still have some purpose, (no immediate castrations) while fanboys betatest new implementations live. and review if the masses should upgrade afterwards
I have already suggested a combination of 2 MB and Segwit. According to other sources this combination would be the same as a direct increase of the block size to 4 MB which is generally not believe to be safe (again, not my words) until some better technologies are implemented like IBLT. IMO the lack of conversation between users and developers is kind of bad. I've only tried to contact some of them a few times on IRC but have had only luck once (for only a few questions). Maybe Segwit would be properly explained and people like you wouldn't fight it.

This is where having multiple alternative implementations becomes very important for the governance mechanism of Bitcoin to work effectively.
I still disagree with this. Just because you are in disagreement with their way of scaling (for '16) that does not mean that multiple alternative implementations are necessary/important. Technically if SegWit works properly we should have enough time to increase the block size in late 2016/early 2017.

Imma replace my Core node with BU.
Welcome to the dark side Luke.


what is this Bitcoin BU every one is excited about?
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
block hard limit increased to 2mb (allowing for more than 2mb potential for SW lite wallet)

the relay data is by default set to send signatures. even with SW miners. but anyone can if they are SW upgraded, can handshake with their peer to not request signatures as a non-default option. allowing old clients to still have some purpose, (no immediate castrations) while fanboys betatest new implementations live. and review if the masses should upgrade afterwards
I have already suggested a combination of 2 MB and Segwit. According to other sources this combination would be the same as a direct increase of the block size to 4 MB which is generally not believe to be safe (again, not my words) until some better technologies are implemented like IBLT. IMO the lack of conversation between users and developers is kind of bad. I've only tried to contact some of them a few times on IRC but have had only luck once (for only a few questions). Maybe Segwit would be properly explained and people like you wouldn't fight it.

This is where having multiple alternative implementations becomes very important for the governance mechanism of Bitcoin to work effectively.
I still disagree with this. Just because you are in disagreement with their way of scaling (for '16) that does not mean that multiple alternative implementations are necessary/important. Technically if SegWit works properly we should have enough time to increase the block size in late 2016/early 2017.

Imma replace my Core node with BU.
Welcome to the dark side Luke.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
..but there is also a surreptitious judean's people front "splitter" strategy in effect: bitcoin xt, bitcoin unlimited, bip101010101010, segwit, soft/hard/easy ph0rkers.. dat nuthouse. Grin

Ya but WTF is this supposed to mean!? I mean, srsly ppl!

Just srsly Angry

It means Galvinista malcontents won't stop splitting once they begin.  Their rump consensus will inevitably cleave further, as crazed pro and anti CLTV/RBF/segwit factions create more incompatible forks.

Bitcoin Reloaded (XT +softfork segwit -RBF -blacklists -checkpoints), Bitcoin Extreme (Unlimited +hardfork segwit -CLTV +FSSRBF), Bitcoin Unbound (something something Sensor Ships blah blah blah Because Fuck Peter Todd amirite) etc.

Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Edit: Don't forget ICantBelieveItsNotBitcoin (Classic -anything Blockstream is in favor of +1 minute blocks +eternal 25BTC block reward +Frap.doc).   Tongue
legendary
Activity: 883
Merit: 1005
Jeebus... these block size wars are a bad train wreck of which I cannot look away.

Both sides of this debate has their own untestable axioms, a handful of reasoned thinkers, a passel of follower-droids, and a handful of ignoramuses who repeatedly spout completely discredited shit. Yet for all the noise and fury, for all the pages of fora we have killed and scrawled e-ink upon, the needle moveth not one iota.

The only way to truly determine whether big blocks or reduced utility will kill bitcoin is to run the damned experiment.

For today, I am tired of trying to get the other side to listen to reason. But we're in a field of permissionless innovation. And I know which hypothesis I believe has the overwhelmingly larger chance of leading to a sustained -- and growing -- Bitcoin.

So fuck all y'all cripplecoiners (admittedly loaded term, employed mostly for comedic effect - you can be offended if'n ya wanna). Imma complete my BU review. If I find no cruft, imma replace my Core node with BU. Imma set it to accept 2 MiB blocks. Then I'll start looking at the other bigblockian options. In case one looks better.

The best part: I don't need your fucking permission. Deal.

Haha! - *wipes away stray tear*  best post in this thread.
May the Ddos be with you sir.

legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
If the blocks become larger it implies that there is increased adoption and use of Bitcoin. A high volume of low fee transactions over the long run would actually pay out more for the miners compared to a high volume of low fee transactions. The idea that if we increase the blocksize over time as the technology allows as it improves would lead to the network collapsing is not supported by the facts.

If we had a sixty four megabyte blocksize limit for instance with the same fees per transaction payed out today it would already exceed the present block reward. It is not impossible to have blocks this large, in a decade from now it might even seem trivial. It would even take BIP101 eight years to reach this point, and the newly proposed Bitcoin Classic more then twelve years. Most of the other blocksize limit increase proposals are even more conservative then this, which is fine. My point being is that a high volume of low value transactions can pay for the networks security and this would not lead to the network collapsing as you claim, especially as the limit is slowly increased as our technology improves.
As I explained HERE, as long as the blocks are not full, the fee income will always be a small percentage of the block reward, and it shrinks every 4 years. A reduced block reward + fee will make future miners only be able to mine a fraction of a bitcoin per each block (even fiat wise that means lots of money), greatly reduce the mining incentive, especially when most of the coins were mined

25-50 BTC per block fee is a much better incentive, and maybe the best incentive for the miners to continuously expand their operation, since it keeps every miner feels like an early adopter. But that is impossible to reach if we don't have block size limit
I think that you are wrong in this conception, It has been shown that we can have a fee market without a blocksize limit.

https://scalingbitcoin.org/papers/feemarket.pdf
http://www.bitcoinunlimited.info/1txn

Peter_R's paper made the same mistake as mainstream economists that they tried to use a simple formula to describe the complex real world that have millions of different actors, thus lost focus on the most important aspects. The supply and demand curve in his paper are all different for different miners since their cost structure are different

If there is no block size limit, when facing a rising orphan rate (e.g. large number of transactions), a miner's best approach is not to raise the fee, because that will make his node receive less and less transactions in a free block relay market, he would just move to large data centers to benefit from increased performance, thus he can use a low fee to attract more transactions, and this is exactly the centralization we don't want to see


I'm not so sure about this.

I think even if miners have different cost curves, it seems that it doesn't matter.

According to the paper:

Quote
an unhealthy fee market requires a propagation time that grows asymptotically with block size slower than log 𝑄. Using physical arguments, we can show that this is not possible.



legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1660
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
Jeebus... these block size wars are a bad train wreck of which I cannot look away.

Both sides of this debate has their own untestable axioms, a handful of reasoned thinkers, a passel of follower-droids, and a handful of ignoramuses who repeatedly spout completely discredited shit. Yet for all the noise and fury, for all the pages of fora we have killed and scrawled e-ink upon, the needle moveth not one iota.

The only way to truly determine whether big blocks or reduced utility will kill bitcoin is to run the damned experiment.

For today, I am tired of trying to get the other side to listen to reason. But we're in a field of permissionless innovation. And I know which hypothesis I believe has the overwhelmingly larger chance of leading to a sustained -- and growing -- Bitcoin.

So fuck all y'all cripplecoiners (admittedly loaded term, employed mostly for comedic effect - you can be offended if'n ya wanna). Imma complete my BU review. If I find no cruft, imma replace my Core node with BU. Imma set it to accept 2 MiB blocks. Then I'll start looking at the other bigblockian options. In case one looks better.

The best part: I don't need your fucking permission. Deal.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
^^So links to credible writeups with charts & pictures and stuff?
You can look up the stats for the S5 and the SP31 yourself, its not like this information is not public. Here is an example of someone down clocking an S5 though, gaining close to a fifty percent increase in efficiency while cutting the effective hashrate in half.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/antminer-s5-underclock-undervolt-best-jgh-1151460

Impressive & credible (no sarcasm), just read the first few pages.
Though closer to 30 than to 50 Sad
Fair enough on it being closer to 30 then 50. In this case, it varies depending on the equipment used and amount of down clocking applied. The ability to down clock is nice, it definitely does extend the life of my miners. Smiley
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
^^So links to credible writeups with charts & pictures and stuff?
You can look up the stats for the S5 and the SP31 yourself, its not like this information is not public. Here is an example of someone down clocking an S5 though, gaining close to a fifty percent increase in efficiency while cutting the effective hashrate in half.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/antminer-s5-underclock-undervolt-best-jgh-1151460


Impressive & credible (no sarcasm), just read the first few pages.
Though closer to 30 than to 50 Sad
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
I would agree to a bump to two megabyte absolutely. I suspect what a lot of people still need to wrap their heads around is that such an increase needs to necessarily happen outside of Core. I would think it would be great if Core implemented this I just do not believe that they will. This is where having multiple alternative implementations becomes very important for the governance mechanism of Bitcoin to work effectively.
legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4766
ok heres some idea's to satisfy all camps

block hard limit increased to 2mb (allowing for more than 2mb potential for SW lite wallet)

the relay data is by default set to send signatures. even with SW miners. but anyone can if they are SW upgraded, can handshake with their peer to not request signatures as a non-default option. allowing old clients to still have some purpose, (no immediate castrations) while fanboys betatest new implementations live. and review if the masses should upgrade afterwards

miners drop the tx fee back down to 0.00001(under 1 cent),... if not then "liquid" sidechain needs to do transactions for atleast 10cents (higher than bitcoins 0.0001).. liquid users will pay the 10cent premium for near instant transfers.. as people are stupidly happy to pay atleast 4.5cent for the hope of a 10minute wait.
thus bringing bitcoin back to being the cheapest option for transfer.
(we dont want liquid being the cheapest and fastest. as thats a game killer for bitcoin)

those wanting to be full archival nodes can buy a 2tb hard drive for $100 and be ok for 20 years at 2mb block. or 5 years if block sizes doubles and doubles again rapidly

if you can watch netflix in HD then bandwidth is not a problem for you

then let it be the client side can have variants of how to handle transactions, rather than the main protocol endlessly needing  tweaking to suit every idea imaginable
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
^^So links to credible writeups with charts & pictures and stuff?
You can look up the stats for the S5 and the SP31 yourself, its not like this information is not public. Here is an example of someone down clocking an S5 though, gaining close to a fifty percent increase in efficiency while cutting the effective hashrate in half.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/antminer-s5-underclock-undervolt-best-jgh-1151460
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
^^So links to credible writeups with charts & pictures and stuff?
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
I can get my miners to become more efficient by about fifty percent by down clocking my units.
TOGTFO. Gear you're running/links to credible writeups.
He means watt/gh not more gh overall.
Indeed I am referring to watt/gh. Doing this I do lose about 2/3 of my hashpower, so I would be adjust this on the fly as needed attempting to stay above break even point. I suspect I will only need to do this at the time of the halving. If I bought some S7's now I suspect they would still be profitable after the halving without any underclock. Obviously the next generation will be even more capable of dealing with the halving.

Interesting side note, is that I actually use the heat generated by my miners to completely warm my home during the winter, so during the winter months at least I can also justify running unprofitable miners for much longer because of the savings I gain in heating. Smiley
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
I can get my miners to become more efficient by about fifty percent by down clocking my units.

TOGTFO. Gear you're running/links to credible writeups.

He means watt/gh not more gh overall.

I understand. As I said, haven't been keeping up on gear, but can't see underclocking improving efficiency by 50%.
Sure, you can drop consumption by 50% by stopping the clock, but you're getting 0 gh/sec, so dubious gains.
legendary
Activity: 883
Merit: 1005
I can get my miners to become more efficient by about fifty percent by down clocking my units.

TOGTFO. Gear you're running/links to credible writeups.

He means watt/gh not more gh overall.
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