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Topic: And some more delays in BFL shipment plans / no shipment before 14th Jan 2013 - page 6. (Read 22730 times)

hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
firstbits.com/1kznfw
Your defense of them seems to be that they're dishonest, naive idiots, but not scammers. Have I summed that up about right?

This isn't an attempt at a defense for BFL, it's an accurate accounting of what is going on so that people can use good information to make their business decisions. The problem with a lot of the comments in this topic, is that there is no temperament to reality. It's "BFL are scammorz, har har" which doesn't help anyone.

I think that the two key words in the quoted section are dishonest and naive. BFL has shown themselves to be dishonest through ommission about their delivery dates, allowing customers to continue to believe that chips would be arriving in late November when they knew that they were making clock buffer adjustments that would delay at least until mid-December. Because of the competitive environment for ASICs, it is understandable why they would do this, but it's important to know that they did this when deciding whether or not you can trust them regarding future statements. Essentially, if BFL says on January 8th that the chips will arrive soon, this aspect of dishonesty justifies a person to ignore the information until there is provable evidence that the chips are in BFLs hands. I would even go so far as to say the chips need to be integrated into a working prototype, and yochdog and the other guy go there and see it and report positively. Only does it makes sense to plan around a promised BFL shipping date.

The other word is naive and it does seem that they have some experience to gain with respect to business relationships. This is pretty normal for a new company though, and as such I think it is overboard to label anyone there as an "idiot". From what I've seen, the people at BFL are pretty smart.

As far as being a "scammer", I still feel it is highly doubtful that the intention here was to collect preorder money and then run with it with no product. However, I still feel a scammer tag is warranted and I've laid out the case for that here.


It has previously been established that one of BFLs managers is convicted for running a scam defrauding little old ladies for 20 million USD.

I read those documents and I think you may have misunderstood what they said. Sonny was just part of an illegal lottery. People were still paid out. It seems that some people focus on the idea that they didn't buy tickets, but that was a strong feature of their lottery. If they bought tickets from the government, then the highest payout they could expect is half of what they put in. This is because government lotteries are not used as wealth redistribution, but for funding government programs (typically schools). So, instead, they offered tickets with a higher payout that would be validated by the government lottery. The people got paid as according to their voluntary agreements, and they actually got paid much better than if they participated in the government sanctioned lottery.

However, the government HATES it when you muscle in on their turf. The business model is essentially the equivalent of selling book orders in Bugsy Segal's backyard. The fact that they were giving people a more fair game while cutting out funds that should have gone to the public treasury was pretty much infuriating to the AG. That's why the hammer fell. The fraud argument from the government is that Sonny's company was supposedly representing themselves as a sanctioned government lottery. Maybe they were, I don't really know because the document lacked evidence, and the government's motivation is suspect. But this has nothing to do with defrauding little old ladies.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1005
Quote from: bfl_josh
Chinese New Year is not going to be a problem for a variety of reasons, so don't worry about that.

Translation: Chinese New Year won't introduce any unforseen delays, because we don't intend to release anything ever. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

Quote from: bfl_josh
I will be heading east at some point to babysit the process, as soon as I have dates for that, I'll let everyone know.

Translation: I'll soon be smoking cigars and drinking champagne from the navels of exotic beauties in Havana, Cuba, suckers. I'll be posting pictures of lighting my cigars with your dollars.
Doubtful.  If it was a scam, they would have left a long while back.  They are getting more refunds than orders at this point, so if it was a scam, by continuing to sit on it, they'd be losing money.  What would be the sense in that?
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
Absolutely!  I don't believe in sock puppet accounts, I just get people like you to post constantly.

You are far too clever. Too bad it doesn't seem to help with doing your job. You are officially still the COO of the BFL circus and not their CPO(Chief Propaganda Officer) correct?
hero member
Activity: 952
Merit: 1009
Ah, seems that was edited in just before i pressed quote.  Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1003
On second thought, don't talk to me Inaba.

Talk to me when you actually have delivered 100 [ASIC] units of a product your company sells. Until that time shooo....

Edit: and uh, best of luck.

Now you just bit yourself. They DID indeed deliver product before. Not to spec, not in time, but deliver they did.
Did you catch the ASIC part? I added it after I just noted I left it out.

(Look at your post, you even quoted it)

By the way, do you think this is foreshadowing the future ASIC devices?
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1003
There are now 2.

bASIC and Avalon (and that project by Yojan).

(Deepbit and ASICMiner where are you?)
hero member
Activity: 952
Merit: 1009
On second thought, don't talk to me Inaba.

Talk to me when you actually have delivered 100 [ASIC] units of a product your company sells. Until that time shooo....

Edit: and uh, best of luck.

Now you just bit yourself. They DID indeed deliver product before. Not to spec, not in time, but deliver they did.
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1003
On second thought, don't talk to me Inaba.

Talk to me when you actually have delivered 100 [ASIC] units of a product your company sells. Until that time shooo....I disown you as a legitimate vendor. Begone from my sight!

Edit: and uh, best of luck.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
I wonder where the foul mouthed BFL spokesdude has gone too. The silence is deafening. Hello? If you miss your daily quota of personal attacks and trolling accusations, this is going to reflect badly in your performance review under the "productivity" section. Please think of the children and save Christmas.

Are you so dense that you haven't figured it out yet?  I only come in here and whip up the natives when the BFL mania dies down.  Right now, it's a raging fire, you don't need my input.  The top 10+ threads in the hardware forum are all about BFL.  If things start dying down again, I'll post more.

...and they're mostly debates about whether BFL is staffed by idiots or thieves.

You are one of my best workers Smiley  I appreciate you more than you know.

Thank you! Must be nice saving all the effort of creating sockpuppet accounts yourself.

Absolutely!  I don't believe in sock puppet accounts, I just get people like you to post constantly.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
I believe they are.  Starting from scratch and they are going to ship 72 GH/s at 120w in January?  Especially given the PCB renders they just posted.  Like I said, good luck.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
I wonder where the foul mouthed BFL spokesdude has gone too. The silence is deafening. Hello? If you miss your daily quota of personal attacks and trolling accusations, this is going to reflect badly in your performance review under the "productivity" section. Please think of the children and save Christmas.

Are you so dense that you haven't figured it out yet?  I only come in here and whip up the natives when the BFL mania dies down.  Right now, it's a raging fire, you don't need my input.  The top 10+ threads in the hardware forum are all about BFL.  If things start dying down again, I'll post more.

...and they're mostly debates about whether BFL is staffed by idiots or thieves.

You are one of my best workers Smiley  I appreciate you more than you know.

Thank you! Must be nice saving all the effort of creating sockpuppet accounts yourself.
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1003
Did he just overlook every time he trolled bASIC and Avalon on his company website?

Yes, he did....

Show me where I posted false information... good luck with that.

You stated that bASIC was fleecing their customers. Do you not recall?
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
No, trolling would be what CreativeX, Frizz, etc... do.  I respond to posts with verifiable information.  Trolling would involve posting false information to incite flames.  Fortunately for me, this forum is fertile ground for refuting lies and bullshit, so I don't need to resort to trolling.  I just need to go around correcting idiots.

Fuzzy verifiable information like...I hope we can still ship in 2012? The fab's drop dead date is December 24th? The fab has delayed the chips for thirty days? Our fab is not in China?

How is anything you say verifiable?
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
No, trolling would be what CreativeX, Frizz, etc... do.  I respond to posts with verifiable information.  Trolling would involve posting false information to incite flames.  Fortunately for me, this forum is fertile ground for refuting lies and bullshit, so I don't need to resort to trolling.  I just need to go around correcting idiots.


legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
Did he just overlook every time he trolled bASIC and Avalon on his company website?

Yes, he did....

Show me where I posted false information... good luck with that.
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1003
While  I agree that anonymity isn't a guaranteed right, and those that are proven to be scammers or child pornographers should be dox'd.  My only concern is of starting a trend of "jumping the gun".  While BFL has missed there projected dates, which could be for many reasons. I personally think it has just been a poorly managed project and this does not prove malicious intent.  

Fucking up is not cause for attacking people personally. If it were, then how many of us deserve the same fate?

Your assessment of BFL's actions is very charitable(calling them fuckups). For myself I fail to see how they could possibly believe they were going to ship finished products in 2012, yet as recently as last week Josh and others(Debbie) were still advising potential customers that they either still had a chance to ship in 2012 or that they had "scheduled shipments" in December of 2012 and January of 2013.

Given what we now know(which is only what BFL reps want us to know) I fail to see how this behavior can be labelled a "fuck up", but your millage may vary.  

I know that it is hard (as it was for me long ago) to see the distinction, unless you have fallen victim to prejudice (I refer to the literal meaning not it's connotation).   Once you've had someone try to ruin your life because they misunderstood, and assumed to know your intentions you become sensitive to it and try to keep it from happening to others.  
Words of wisdom. +1000
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
I wonder where the foul mouthed BFL spokesdude has gone too. The silence is deafening. Hello? If you miss your daily quota of personal attacks and trolling accusations, this is going to reflect badly in your performance review under the "productivity" section. Please think of the children and save Christmas.

Are you so dense that you haven't figured it out yet?  I only come in here and whip up the natives when the BFL mania dies down.  Right now, it's a raging fire, you don't need my input.  The top 10+ threads in the hardware forum are all about BFL.  If things start dying down again, I'll post more.

...and they're mostly debates about whether BFL is staffed by idiots or thieves.

You are one of my best workers Smiley  I appreciate you more than you know.
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1003
Did he just overlook every time he trolled bASIC and Avalon on his company website?

Yes, he did....
legendary
Activity: 1458
Merit: 1006
legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
Japan. (He says it with courageous certainty!)

Either that, or Thailand....

Japan would be the most logical choice to state that that's where the FAB is located, for come the middle of January it could be claimed that the chips are held up on some dock (tarmac) due to the package setting off a Geiger counter.

Post not quoted, but I have made the mistake before of accidentally doxxing individuals. Once, Josh was kind enough to bring one such dox episode to my attention, of which I concurred he was correct. Now knowing that doxxing can cause major harm, I will be more careful in that respect. Again, I currently have no ill feelings toward Diablo.

~Bruno K~
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