Topic: [ANN] Bitfury ASIC sales in EU and Europe - page 16. (Read 250482 times)

If anybody want sell "old" not PCIE style M-Boards I want buy 2-3 pieces.
PM me offer.

He's referring to market timing. Most people are shit at timing the market (don't blame them, even the wall-street pros are the same), so if you don't get shaken out of the market during the mini crashes that eventually occur you will end up making profit _IF_ you hold on to your coins. In the end if you got big balls you could just use dollar cost averaging and buy and hold. Look at when price went to almost below $1. If you bought then knowing full well that the price could've tanked even lower you could be a multi millionaire today. The overall trend for btc seems to be UP and most miners would've made a bigger return had they not bought hardware. The issue is that most miners are cash poor so they did not have a lot of capital in fiat to put into mining hardware, so they were forced to pay for that hardware with btc. This is kind of like being bullish on gold and wanting to invest in gold mining companies but since you have no cash you sell all your jewelry or gold coins and bars to buy gold stocks in the hope of getting more physical gold later on.

Well I have bitfury miners myself. That is why you find me in hardware forum. Can you explain me how most investors can be buying high and selling low when bitcoin price is rising 95% of the time.

One thing is interesting about what you say, for every norwegian millionaire there are thousands of loosers giving their money to the norweigan millionaire. And everything under the sun is a pyramid scheme, think about it, you'll see.

Miners and speculators work hand in hand, the one is impossible without the other. Speculators buy miners product so miners can pay electricity bills and hardware.

Maybe we should try to not spit in the hand that feeds us, that goes for both speculators and hardware manufacturers.

One simple rule for companies is to never be in the middle of a supply chain, which is precisely what miners are, we are dependent on hardware on one hand and speculators on the other.

But the beauty of mining is risk management, it's the only way to participate with moderate risk, we got hedging on both ends.

I buy hardware with mined bitcoins every bubble / ASIC generation (funny they mostly coencide or maybe it's just preorder date span that covers it), just enough to stay in the game. Now I would need alot more hardware to heat my house, but it's too expensive. We can't go smaller with the chips we have, 0.5W/GH seems to be hard to beat, now it's horizontal scaling which means more power consumption, only at the end of that we might see the price of bitcoin stabilize.

Right now the price is high if you look at miners revenue, hell with these figures I can quit my day job.

Difficulty will go up and price, well, will go up too I hope. Every bubble the circulation of coins raises the expected value, I think that will never change unless something better comes along.

It's all about the global debt bubble and real energy prices (inflation and population adjusted) really, and looking at those bitcoin has a long way to go even in the face of the generation of coins requiring energy catch-22.

Bottom line, if you heat yourself with mining gear you can't loose.

Oh this tired old "buy and hold" bullshit!  Who the f&@k actually does this?  Most investors in Bitcoin are buying high and selling low and losing their asses.

Why does everyone who posts this crap always thinks they are some genius with all of the answers?  Please stay out of the hardware forum.  Your "genius" means nothing in here.  Please do us all a favor and go back to the economics/speculation forum and post your wisdom where it's welcome.

You have put the equality sign in community=miners. It's just a small part of the community, in fact it will be a big plus for a BTC to get rid off the "invest X in obscure hardware and earn X*Y quick" mentality. Can't wait for the day when you invest X in miner and earn 10-15% BTC a year, it will be a great sign that BTC is mature and stable.

And that will be the end of bitcoin because people are going to loose interest. When community dies bitcoin will follow. I wish them luck selling their 'hard earned' coins to themselves. Before this happens They will make a good money for sure
RIP
That process has been started already and it is a matter of timing for it to end

With ASICs it has always been on the cards that suppliers with their own ASIC would retreat into just supplying their own mine. This might be for the reason of protecting their own rig earnings but at a more basic level if you are making a low profit on hardware why have the hassle and costs of customer support, logistics and the chance they will not pay you if the market goes the wrong way. Hopefully Bitfury ASICs will become available again at a reasonable price but given my statement above they might not.

We are now in a period where the market will start to become more stable. It won't stop growing but the growth will become more controlled. X200+ growth in hashing power in the last year has been somewhat explosive. With ASICs appearing already at 28nm it is unlikely that newer ASIC technologies will offer much over these in cost reduction for Bitcoin in the short term so there is unlikely to be big advantages in people doing technology jumps like we have seen in the last 12 months. So it will be down to more of a grind, low margins, and how much your electric costs. That might mean a handful of super-rigs in the world, based in low electric cost sites, and basically controlled by ASIC producers with 90% of the network.

Ok here is my math:

Someone decides to invest in bitcoin. He either buys hardware or bare bitcoins. He buys hardware for 50 btc or USD/EUR equivalent. The hardware mines back 25 bitcoins until energy price parity is reached.

If the price rises by 500%, he has 250% ROI, if he decided to mine, and 500% ROI if he decided to keep bitcoins.

If the price drops to 10%, he has lost 95% of his investment, if he decided to keep bitcoins he lost only 90%.

If the price remains at initial value, he has lost 50% with mining and nothing, if he kept bitcoins.

In addition there is electricity cost, administration of hardware, risk of failure and less liquidity (look up opportunity costs, good hint). Well you might compare mining to keeping USD/EUR, but this is not an investment...

And don't get me wrong, I would do the same as you. If enough people keep buying hardware that does not ROI, sell it overpriced. It is ok to me. But on the other hand, allow us to evaluate the hardware investment.

Join the Wasp collective!
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/open-source-hardware-project-hive-wasp-prototype-development-325181

If any of you guys are located in North America and want to buy bitfury hardware at usurious rates go to Dave's site now, hurry up and give him all your coins!

Why would he sell chips to us any more? He is making massive profit from mining operation so why would he sell chips and  get diff even higher. Clever  way to protect own mining operation;)

You can get the gist of it from the more summarised version in the OP. And it's interesting to read everyone else talking the implications and possible hybridised versions through.

Keep your eyes on all things affecting mining! The actual implementation of something like this block propagation improvement could change the design of future ASIC miners, without changing in the hashing algorithm.

It's far from a settled debate though, and even if it were to win approval, it would have to be carefully planned out over many months, and these core development guys have alot of other branches of work to do to this system before. And who knows what alternative proposals may be suggested.

wow, that paper you linked to is some heavy reading; it will take me some time to look into it, but on the face of it improving the bitcoin protocol is welcome in my eyes. As always getting the majority of users and especially miners to go along with the proposed changes is a different thing.

I understand why you say that, but there may be reasons why the design of the interface with the boards and their mining controller could need a drastic alteration (https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/new-paper-accelerating-bitcoins-trasaction-processing-359582). And that's not accounting for the unknown changes that do get implemented.


I hope eventually that we will be able to manufacture mining rigs ourselves; chips, boards, cooling, power and enclosures. When you look at the big + wide picture, the trends suggest this will all eventually be possible (and perhaps sooner than the shortest of near-term estimates). Then it will just be a case of the price of copper, plastic and silicon! (and/or whatever futuristic raw materials we end up using to substrate our component set  ).

Whatever happens both now and in the future, these mining devices are unprecedented as a class of goods. Technology to produce currency has always existed, but it's never required such a level of expertise and development/manufactuing tools before. Once we've changed the electronics manufacturing paradigm a little more, maybe we'll be get closer to something like the equality of opportunity that was needed to pan for gold.

As long as bitcoin uses the SHA-256 algorithm then existing ASIC miners will be fine for the foreseeable future. Nothing short of something nuts like quantum computers will jeopardize the reign of the ASIC chip, but I do agree that we will experience more gold rushes. We've just witnessed one recently when btc price was over $1000. I saw people bid ridiculous prices for any miners they can get their hands on.

But going back to your point about not buying into the early batch, yeah that's something I'm guilty of too. I foolishly paid 16K Euro for a Aug kit. At the time that was like 89 to 90 btc - I think. Either way probably my full kit will never ROI in btc terms. The lesson I've learned is that mining for profit and actually reaching a profit is not that easy. The small guy is better off just buying btc and that's it. Mining should be a hobby for most people, not a business because pure and simple it will be a _LOSING_ business for the majority of people. The ones that will make money twice over are the ASIC companies who had their chip development costs subsidized by YOU ALL. To add insult to injury they then turn that hardware you paid for and use it to drive up the difficulty. So you essentially pay for the hardware twice - it's like a hidden tax.

In the end it may have been more fair if they just borrowed the capital to design and develop the chip, then mined privately.

Except when I get things wrong! It's been known to happen. I'm confident I'm giving out the best advice I can, though. If fewer people had bought into Bitfury at the expensive part of the offering, then those few would have been a little closer to profitability. And there wouldn't have been as much money available to fund the private mine.

This is all part of the "gold rush" dynamic we have here. All who were burned this time round, but feel they want to get up to fight again for another round, will be better placed to make more informed decisions when the (even bigger) mob goes mad for mining. I expect we will experience a "pre-reward drop" craze in 2016, with possibly more crazes based around price rises and innovations in miner design (the ASIC is not the last chapter, as some have said, there will be more changes, possibly related to changes in the design of the Bitcoin network). The "pre-reward drop" will probably be the biggest craze though, especially if it coincides with some other great leap forward.

As always, a celebrity knows best. Listen to Mr. Banks.

I came very very close to buying Bitfury October kit, after the discount. Didn't do it. I dismissed August price instantly, I knew it was too much of a gamble at 230 BTC for 400 GH/s.

Don't just pounce on the first opportunity because you think it's a sellers market. I've raised my eyebrow at plenty of miners for sale in the last 6 months, but only made very few very conservative orders. Like when the exchange rate went crazy last week 

If there's no good opportunities, don't just take "the best of the bad" and then pray to Satoshi it will work out, exercise your patience. A good chance will come along.

Getting lots of cheep miners and ROI in a month without moving your finger is nice?

I admire the people who spend their time and money to bring a product like this to others and i would have been unhappy to, when i see that my striving is always met with criticism, no matter what i do.
Punin did (and i am sure still does even we don't see that recently) great job bringing this product to all. Bitfury made a great chip, that is on par even with the 28nm ones, but they are both accused every time there is a problem (or something that you or someone else) doesn't like and it's always 'their fault', just because one can't see what's behind that miner except 'MOAR MONEY AND I WANT THEM NOW' ... and for free if possible. Is this nice?

I did my own board and would like to get some chips for it - unfortunately the price is too high and they are not available, but i don't blame Punin or Bitfury for that, i don't blame China for the price increase which raised the hardware price either (neither for it's fall in the last days) - this is a market ... 'because of' is not 'the fault of'. If there are no chips or I can't afford them, my time will be wasted, but i don't blame Punin or Bitfury for that.