[ANN] BTCJam - Peer to Peer Bitcoin Lending - page 67.

Gerco

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Quote from: gweedo on December 05, 2012, 03:03:23 PM

There have been people that tried to take court actions with people who they have loaned bitcoins to, they were laughed out court. Do research it will help with your loaning as well Wink

I've been trying to find any records of people suing over anything bitcoin related, but I'm afraid that my Google-fu just isn't strong enough to come up with any loan disputes, let along any that have been laughed out of court (perhaps there are none in English?). I see some cases about coins that have been stolen and various other breaches of contract, but no loans.

Would you do me (and others) a favor and post a reference to one such case? I would be very interested in the reasons the judge ruled the contracts unenforceable.

ercolinux

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Quote from: gweedo on December 05, 2012, 03:01:36 PM

But maybe you need to take responsibility for not doing enough research on the people your loaning. I highly doubt ANY OTHER LOANING SITE WILL TAKE LEGAL ACTION ON BEHALF OF THERE USERS. I have yet to see this.

It is stupid people like this that make sites like btcjam get a bad rep cause they can't do research on there own if the loan is a good one.

To do a research you've to have access to more information. All the loans on btcjam could be scams if you see from a perspective.
The gold bar guy for example has at least a 50% of probability of be an honest trader: gold prices are totally in range, at least for where I live (he buys gold bar at 44€ while spot price is €42, and lot of gold trader buy "used" gold at 35-36€), he has 3 loan repayed, 5 out of 6 credit rating, and 2,2% of interest in 30 days is way lower than what you can get for small loans from a credit agency (15-16% of annual interest is not uncommon).

gweedo

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Quote from: Gerco on December 05, 2012, 02:39:55 PM

Quote from: gweedo on December 05, 2012, 11:02:13 AM

Of course bitcoins we aren't talking USD, this isn't USDtalk.org

A debt does not necessarily have to be denominated in USD for my comment to make sense. If a contract states that I am to give you a car, a house or a microwave oven that contract would be perfectly enforceable under US law (probably in any other countries as well). The court may require me to accept USD as repayment instead of the promised item, but that doesn't change anything. The real question would be whether the court considers the loan contract itself to be valid (which on btcjam is a big unknown, since the contract is never "signed" by anyone).

There have been people that tried to take court actions with people who they have loaned bitcoins to, they were laughed out court. Do research it will help with your loaning as well Wink

gweedo

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But maybe you need to take responsibility for not doing enough research on the people your loaning. I highly doubt ANY OTHER LOANING SITE WILL TAKE LEGAL ACTION ON BEHALF OF THERE USERS. I have yet to see this.

It is stupid people like this that make sites like btcjam get a bad rep cause they can't do research on there own if the loan is a good one.

Gerco

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Activity: 73

Merit: 10

Quote from: gweedo on December 05, 2012, 11:02:13 AM

Of course bitcoins we aren't talking USD, this isn't USDtalk.org

A debt does not necessarily have to be denominated in USD for my comment to make sense. If a contract states that I am to give you a car, a house or a microwave oven that contract would be perfectly enforceable under US law (probably in any other countries as well). The court may require me to accept USD as repayment instead of the promised item, but that doesn't change anything. The real question would be whether the court considers the loan contract itself to be valid (which on btcjam is a big unknown, since the contract is never "signed" by anyone).

What I'm trying to point out is that until btcjam changes something (either by offering some way to enforce or encourage repayment or allowing lenders to do this themselves), it's just too big of a risk for me to lend money to anyone.

Right now, it looks like they pretend to "escrow" personal information of the borrowers. It is assumed by many lenders that this information can eventually be used to enforce repayment. As of the time of writing, nothing will be be done to pursue a defaulting borrower and think this is not clear to many lenders on btcjam.

If btcjam wants to attract more lenders, I suggest they do something about this misconception.

Shermo

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I think the point myself and others are trying to make is there really is no point in any of the credit rating stuff if in fact its not of use to anyone because BTCJam won't use it and won't divulge anything to lenders. Might as well just remove all of that and just have a free for all.

Also about three weeks ago Tulkas said the following, which at least gives the assumption that something is in the pipeline:

Quote from: Tulkas on November 14, 2012, 01:49:50 PM

Quote from: ercolinux on November 12, 2012, 05:41:14 AM

There is any news on a system to obtain back some of the money from the scammer, or at least have a part of their debt repayed?

We will have news soon (in two weeks aprox). Sorry, can't tell you more right now.

creativex

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Activity: 434

Merit: 250

Some lenders have done this. The taxi cab guy seemed like a scammer to me, but some lenders requested pics of cabs and I believe got them. I believe he's late on his payments now.

Rassah

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Why not ask the borrowers to post self-identifying information on their own loan pages, and just lend only to those who do?

gweedo

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Quote from: Gerco on December 05, 2012, 10:56:35 AM

Quote from: gweedo on December 05, 2012, 10:51:18 AM

You have never taken any thing to court, try to take a loan to court and see what happens, they will laugh you out of the court house LMAO When someone is a little bit smarter, take time to read and learn don't argue with them.

You would do better to actually provide reasons *why* a loan would be laughed out of court. A loan in BTC is questionable, granted, but debts are taken to court every day.

Of course bitcoins we aren't talking USD, this isn't USDtalk.org

Quote from: Gerco on December 05, 2012, 10:56:35 AM

Your discussion techniques lack finesse. People are much more likely to listen to you if you present actual arguments instead of simply claiming that anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot.

Well read the thread we have talked at this at great lengths already, I hate to be repeating myself.

Gerco

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Quote from: gweedo on December 05, 2012, 10:51:18 AM

You have never taken any thing to court, try to take a loan to court and see what happens, they will laugh you out of the court house LMAO When someone is a little bit smarter, take time to read and learn don't argue with them.

You would do better to actually provide reasons *why* a loan would be laughed out of court. A loan in BTC is questionable, granted, but debts are taken to court every day.

Your discussion techniques lack finesse. People are much more likely to listen to you if you present actual arguments instead of simply claiming that anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot.

gweedo

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Quote from: Gerco on December 05, 2012, 10:44:05 AM

Quote from: gweedo on December 05, 2012, 10:24:37 AM

if you did an in person loan to a friend, they scam you and you can't just send it to a collection agency.

But I can (and will) take it to court. This option is denied to us by btcjam. They have the information required to go to collections or even to court but this information is withheld from the interested parties.

You have never taken any thing to court, try to take a loan to court and see what happens, they will laugh you out of the court house LMAO When someone is a little bit smarter, take time to read and learn don't argue with them.

creativex

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Activity: 434

Merit: 250

You're on shaky legal ground, because as soon as you tell the "honorable" black robed fascist that you didn't lose federal reserve toilet paper, but instead lost BTC they may well laugh at you.

Gerco

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Merit: 10

Quote from: gweedo on December 05, 2012, 10:24:37 AM

You clearly have no idea how P2P lending works. If you went to any other site, they wouldn't do anything else as well. There are laws.

I fully admit that I don't. I joined btcjam as an experiment, a hobby so to say. In my mind, btcjam appears to offer some services to lenders, like identity verification of the borrowers. That kind of thing, to me, means that they are taking some actions to ensure loans get repaid (even if only allowing the lenders to pursue). Interest percentages are far too low to make this kind of default rate sustainable.

Quote

if you did an in person loan to a friend, they scam you and you can't just send it to a collection agency.

But I can (and will) take it to court. This option is denied to us by btcjam. They have the information required to go to collections or even to court but this information is withheld from the interested parties.

gweedo

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Quote from: Gerco on December 05, 2012, 10:15:29 AM

Quote from: zaj on December 04, 2012, 04:40:23 PM

so nothing is gonna happen to all those scammers? i lost 15 bitcoins in total to the taxi dude and to the gold bar guy. (and 80 to pirate). might aswell scam my 100 lost bitcoins back if noone does jack shit.

Apparently not. The verification system is useless, since even people who are fully verified do not get chased upon default and the lenders are prohibited from taking any action themselves. Those two factors combined make the site too much of a risk for anyone who cares about their coins.

In my mind btcjam should offer at least one of the following:
- Enforcement options (collections; reporting the default to credit bureaus; etc)
- Publish identity information for defaulting users
- Allow lenders to pursue defaulting borrowers themselves

By forbidding us from pursuing and also not doing anything themselves, btcjam has created a paradise for frausters... I'll be pulling out my coins and not extending any further loans until something changes.

You clearly have no idea how P2P lending works. If you went to any other site, they wouldn't do anything else as well. There are laws. You have no clue about loaning out money, so maybe you should leave, and go educate yourself about it, even if you did an in person loan to a friend, they scam you and you can't just send it to a collection agency.

Gerco

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Quote from: zaj on December 04, 2012, 04:40:23 PM

so nothing is gonna happen to all those scammers? i lost 15 bitcoins in total to the taxi dude and to the gold bar guy. (and 80 to pirate). might aswell scam my 100 lost bitcoins back if noone does jack shit.

Apparently not. The verification system is useless, since even people who are fully verified do not get chased upon default and the lenders are prohibited from taking any action themselves. Those two factors combined make the site too much of a risk for anyone who cares about their coins.

In my mind btcjam should offer at least one of the following:
- Enforcement options (collections; reporting the default to credit bureaus; etc)
- Publish identity information for defaulting users
- Allow lenders to pursue defaulting borrowers themselves

By forbidding us from pursuing and also not doing anything themselves, btcjam has created a paradise for frausters... I'll be pulling out my coins and not extending any further loans until something changes.

ffcitatos

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Activity: 71

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Quote from: zaj on December 04, 2012, 04:40:23 PM

so nothing is gonna happen to all those scammers? i lost 15 bitcoins in total to the taxi dude and to the gold bar guy. (and 80 to pirate). might aswell scam my 100 lost bitcoins back if noone does jack shit.

This is a bummer, man. Even worse, now that a lot of coins was lost, it will be much harder and more expensive for people to borrow, as the lenders will be more conservative in their decisions.

zaj

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Activity: 103

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so nothing is gonna happen to all those scammers? i lost 15 bitcoins in total to the taxi dude and to the gold bar guy. (and more than hundred to pirate). might aswell scam my lost bitcoins back if noone does jack shit.

Tulkas

sr. member

Activity: 352

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Founder, BTCJAM

Quote from: Shermo on December 04, 2012, 02:09:07 PM

I will ask again... what is the process when someone defaults on a loan?

As gweedo pointed out this question was answered several times, please, read the thread.

gweedo

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Quote from: creativex on December 04, 2012, 02:43:54 PM

Are you advocating personal responsibility? How very retro.

Yes I am, and I know everyone wants a trophy if they win or lose.

creativex

sr. member

Activity: 434

Merit: 250

Are you advocating personal responsibility? How very retro.

Topic: [ANN] BTCJam - Peer to Peer Bitcoin Lending - page 67. (Read 204975 times)