Author

Topic: [ANN] [CHC] Chaincoin - Network Upgrade 16.1 - SegWit Activated - page 153. (Read 321715 times)

sr. member
Activity: 302
Merit: 250
so here's the roulette coin's roulette hashing function..

https://github.com/roulettecoin/roulettecoin/blob/master-0.8/src/roulette.h

like i said c++ not my strongest, can some one explain in syntax terms what they are doing here?

Quote
    unsigned char hash[64]; 
   
    sph_sha512_init(&ctx_sha);
    sph_sha512(&ctx_sha, static_cast(&pbegin[0]), (pend - pbegin) * sizeof(pbegin[0]));
    sph_sha512_close(&ctx_sha, hash);

stuff before that and after that is pretty straight forward to me.

(I'm no C++ programmer, so feel free to ignore this) ...

AIUI, that is a standardised calling format (for NIST candidates?): 1. Initialize 2. Transform(s) 3. Finalize

see: https://github.com/chaincoin/chaincoin/blob/master/src/hash.h#L212

Cheers

Graham


is it me or they look pretty similar?
so basically it's using the first sha512 hash's value to randomize the order of the algorithm chain.  we can use just another simple random generator to return a set of 11 from the pool of 16 chains, then run it through the roulette coin loop.

i think that will be pretty nice random dynamic chaining mechanism.

thoughts?
legendary
Activity: 2254
Merit: 1290
so here's the roulette coin's roulette hashing function..

https://github.com/roulettecoin/roulettecoin/blob/master-0.8/src/roulette.h

like i said c++ not my strongest, can some one explain in syntax terms what they are doing here?

Quote
    unsigned char hash[64]; 
   
    sph_sha512_init(&ctx_sha);
    sph_sha512(&ctx_sha, static_cast(&pbegin[0]), (pend - pbegin) * sizeof(pbegin[0]));
    sph_sha512_close(&ctx_sha, hash);

stuff before that and after that is pretty straight forward to me.

(I'm no C++ programmer, so feel free to ignore this) ...

AIUI, that is a standardised calling format (for NIST candidates?): 1. Initialize 2. Transform(s) 3. Finalize

see: https://github.com/chaincoin/chaincoin/blob/master/src/hash.h#L212

Cheers

Graham
sr. member
Activity: 302
Merit: 250
so here's the roulette coin's roulette hashing function..

https://github.com/roulettecoin/roulettecoin/blob/master-0.8/src/roulette.h

like i said c++ not my strongest, can some one explain in syntax terms what they are doing here?

Quote
    unsigned char hash[64]; 
   
    sph_sha512_init(&ctx_sha);
    sph_sha512(&ctx_sha, static_cast(&pbegin[0]), (pend - pbegin) * sizeof(pbegin[0]));
    sph_sha512_close(&ctx_sha, hash);

stuff before that and after that is pretty straight forward to me.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
@bonzocorleonee
CHC does looks interesting, especially if development keep on going.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
Chaincoin Founder
Chaincoin 0.9.2.3

Now with Windows installer and Mac wallet.

Windows Installer:

https[Suspicious link removed]

Mac Wallet:

https://github.com/chaincoin/chaincoin/releases/download/v0.9.2.3/Chaincoin-Qt-0.9.2.3.dmg

Other versions:

https://github.com/chaincoin/chaincoin/releases/tag/v0.9.2.3


What are your plans for this coin?

Develop an alternative to other MasterNode coins.


Are you looking for involvement from others?  Is there anyway for others to assist you in furthering this cryptocurrency?

Participation is most welcome. There are many areas where anyone can get involved, from the web site to coding to graphics to promotion, etc. Feel free to suggest or take on a task.
full member
Activity: 176
Merit: 100
Chaincoin 0.9.2.3

Now with Windows installer and Mac wallet.

Windows Installer:

https[Suspicious link removed]

Mac Wallet:

https://github.com/chaincoin/chaincoin/releases/download/v0.9.2.3/Chaincoin-Qt-0.9.2.3.dmg

Other versions:

https://github.com/chaincoin/chaincoin/releases/tag/v0.9.2.3


What are your plans for this coin?

Develop an alternative to other MasterNode coins.


Are you looking for involvement from others?  Is there anyway for others to assist you in furthering this cryptocurrency?
full member
Activity: 176
Merit: 100
The concept of a dynamic hashing algorithm is bouncing around in my head.

Has to remain deterministic in order for the hash to be recalculated for verification porpoises. The fanciest pants in this arena belong to the unregarded Roulettecoin:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/annrlt-roulettecoin-pow-new-algo-no-premine-gpu-miner-592251

Quote
new randomized mining algorithm (Roulette): block is hashed with sha2, then 16 rounds of hashing are performed, each round with randomly chosen algorithm from the set of 16 hashing algorithms: blake bmw cubehash echo fugue groestl hamsi jh keccak luffa sha2 shabal shavite simd skein whirlpool

The DOACC RDF dataset (*) contains an extensive list of PoW hash schemes used in altcoins. I picked 'em out for convenience, here's an N3 serialisation.

https://pastebin.com/7x4HW5ew

There's also a more accessible rendering in the DOACC documentation: https://doacc.github.io/facts/powschemes.html

(Expect the latter to exercise your machine a little because it loads the DOACC RDF graph from github into your browser and uses javascript libraries to run an in-browser query on the graph and render the results. The in-list DOACC-id links aren't usefully clickable, sry)

Cheers

Graham

(*) Abandoned, last updated a couple of years ago.



Your posts are always filled with intriguing information.  Thanks for the links. 

sr. member
Activity: 302
Merit: 250
...but can you trust that random generator tho.

i was thinking for a bit and thought..how about just like 2 fa..randomize another set like the pool of hashes algorithms*, and it doesn't matter if we trust 1 or the other, as long as the 2 is separated.

*edit
sr. member
Activity: 302
Merit: 250
yeah that roulette coin's algorithm is more like what i was thinking what chaincoin would really benefit from.

it's like they are chaining 17, 1 + 16

...but can you trust that random generator tho.
legendary
Activity: 2254
Merit: 1290
The concept of a dynamic hashing algorithm is bouncing around in my head.

Has to remain deterministic in order for the hash to be recalculated for verification porpoises. The fanciest pants in this arena belong to the unregarded Roulettecoin:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/annrlt-roulettecoin-pow-new-algo-no-premine-gpu-miner-592251

Quote
new randomized mining algorithm (Roulette): block is hashed with sha2, then 16 rounds of hashing are performed, each round with randomly chosen algorithm from the set of 16 hashing algorithms: blake bmw cubehash echo fugue groestl hamsi jh keccak luffa sha2 shabal shavite simd skein whirlpool

The DOACC RDF dataset (*) contains an extensive list of PoW hash schemes used in altcoins. I picked 'em out for convenience, here's an N3 serialisation.

https://pastebin.com/7x4HW5ew

There's also a more accessible rendering in the DOACC documentation: https://doacc.github.io/facts/powschemes.html

(Expect the latter to exercise your machine a little because it loads the DOACC RDF graph from github into your browser and uses javascript libraries to run an in-browser query on the graph and render the results. The in-list DOACC-id links aren't usefully clickable, sry)

Cheers

Graham

(*) Abandoned, last updated a couple of years ago.

full member
Activity: 176
Merit: 100
So Chaincoins c11 is basically just the same algo's comprising x11 but with the different algo's hashing in a different order?  
So it would be a relatively easy task to take those same 11 algo's and rearrange the hashing order again.  I am just thinking out loud.  The concept of a dynamic hashing algorithm is bouncing around in my head.

mr. satoshi is that you?

..wait, so the current chaining of hashing is linear and circular, which one it chooses to use next?  anything random in choosing the next hashing algorithm?
No satoshi here.  Just a novice programmer trying to make sense of the massive amounts of information to dig through.  I found this paper interesting http://db.cs.berkeley.edu/papers/S2K-94-50.pdf
sr. member
Activity: 302
Merit: 250
So Chaincoins c11 is basically just the same algo's comprising x11 but with the different algo's hashing in a different order?  
So it would be a relatively easy task to take those same 11 algo's and rearrange the hashing order again.  I am just thinking out loud.  The concept of a dynamic hashing algorithm is bouncing around in my head.

mr. satoshi is that you?

..wait, so the current chaining of hashing is linear and circular, which one it chooses to use next?  anything random in choosing the next hashing algorithm?
full member
Activity: 176
Merit: 100
So Chaincoins c11 is basically just the same algo's comprising x11 but with the different algo's hashing in a different order? 
So it would be a relatively easy task to take those same 11 algo's and rearrange the hashing order again.  I am just thinking out loud.  The concept of a dynamic hashing algorithm is bouncing around in my head.
legendary
Activity: 2254
Merit: 1290
So is it safe to say CHC is one of the most ASIC resistant if not THE most ASIC resistant coin out there at the moment?

Not really. Simply chaining algos doesn't evade the fact that the program code is deterministic and so can be (reasonably straightforwardly) implemented in hardware (i.e. an ASIC), assuming adequate economic incentives exist.

For background technical reading, I like the Graz TU's SHA-ZOO for its comprehensive treatment. It's worth noting that reaching NIST Stage 3 involved an ASIC implementation - i.e. every NIST 3rd-round hash algo has an ASIC implementation:

“In this paper we present the implementation results for all five SHA-3 third round candidate algorithms, BLAKE, Grøstl, JH, Keccak, and Skein in a standard-cell-based ASIC realized using 65nm CMOS technology” - http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/ST/hash/sha-3/Round3/March2012/documents/papers/GURKAYNAK_paper.pdf  (and that was back in 2012).

With enough money at stake, any deterministic program can be implemented in hardware. One can only dissuade, not defeat.

One approach to dissuading speculators is to ring the changes on hashing params - a technique used by many scrypt-based algos (scrypt-n, scrypt-n-f, scrypt-j-n, etc).

Another approach is to exploit the fact that computers are rich in on-board RAM whereas that is a scarce and, importantly, fixed resource for any ASIC solution, so changing memory requirements also pushes up the costs/risks of an ASIC implementation - IIRC, Vertcoin's LyraRE algo (PDF whitepaper) takes this approach, as does Axiom (https://bitslog.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/memohash-v0-3.pdf).

(Another view maintains that the appearance of specialised hardware is a Good Thing(tm) in terms of protecting the public ledger.)

Quote
I see smart contracts as pretty interesting solution for this decentralized funding and spending....but i have not done enough research to testing to see if that's possible.

gmaxwell has stated that the (not Turing-complete) scripting language implemented in the Bitcoin codebase is quite capable of expressing “smart contracts”.

There are issues a-plenty, more than enough to fascinate any software engineer (which I'm not).

Cheers

Graham
sr. member
Activity: 302
Merit: 250

...

Cheers

Graham


Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions, Mr. Graham.  Looks like I have a lot of reading to do.

So is it safe to say CHC is one of the most ASIC resistant if not THE most ASIC resistant coin out there at the moment?  keeping it in the hands of the people and staying spirit of decentralization.  this is the type of projects i like to get involved in. the small market cap and simplicity are things that can help newbies learn and maybe get their hands dirty.

I have a computer science background but moved family restaurant business because of first dot com bomb and family reasons.  but i still love playing with new technologies and codes when I have the time.  the cryptocurrency revolution have rekindled a lot of my interest in picking up development again.  but it looks like so much C++...even tho that's my first language learned, i gotta say i have very little experience in it.  i am more familiar with web development with php and java.  a faucet script is probably the best i can do right now.

As for funding, a lot of coins i see happening is either
1. Decentralized funding..either crowd funding or blockchain dev-tax, have trust from funding source but, using the fund correctly becomes really hard and politicized, it always somehow end up being centralized controlled and spent.
2. Centralized funding...a la, big investment, or individual, group or company involvement...allows fast, efficient and less political barrier to move things...but the trust and longevity of the funding is not as good as decentralized funding.  

I see smart contracts as pretty interesting solution for this decentralized funding and spending....but i have not done enough research to testing to see if that's possible.

Thank you for the conversation.


legendary
Activity: 2254
Merit: 1290
Thanks for the detailed reply Graham!

Just a clarification, Chaincoin was released before Darkcoin and was originally based on Zetacoin/Bitcoin, so the 11 chained hashing algo was first done by Chaincoin. Chaincoin only later adopted the Dash code base.

It's just my own idiosyncratic take on things.

Tsk tsk, I knew I should have checked the actual commit dates. I stand corrected, thank you.

Cheers

Graham
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
Chaincoin Founder
1. what are the 11 hashing algorithms chained and what are the benefits of such chaining.
2. can we start the masternodes remotely like other masternode coins, and do we need a unique ip for each or just a different port.
3. and research or plans to expand the masternodes to do elastic computing instead of mining. "elastic chains" sounds great.
4. can the dev team introduce he/she/themselves?

1. what are the 11 hashing algorithms chained and what are the benefits of such chaining.

C11 -> https://github.com/chaincoin/chaincoin/blob/master/src/hash.h#L194

(for reference, also see Darkcoin-now-Dash):

X11 > https://github.com/dx11/darkcoin/blob/master/src/hashblock.h#L62

The benefits are at best arguable and in peer-reviewed cryptography papers the technique (of serially chaining the output of different hash algorithms) has been characterised as “folklore”. The characterisation is accurate, as far as I can ascertain, according to my understanding of the bitcointalk origins of the approach:

The original notion of chaining the output-to-input of different hash algos (as opposed to Satoshi's double-wrapping of SHA2 to elide a speculated-upon length extension vulnerability) was proposed by the Russian developer(s) of SIFCoin, ANN, here translated informally:

Super secure hashing: 9 rounds of hashing from 6 hashing functions (blake, bmw, groestl, jh, keccak, skein). 3 rounds apply a random hashing function.
(my emphasis)

Although the claim of “super secure hashing” was later quietly dropped from the Quarkcoin rubric (presumably as indefensible), the fiction quickly spread amongst altcoin devs, starting with Darkcoin (which didn't even change the copy'n'pastad function name --- ”Hash9”):

https://github.com/dx11/darkcoin/blob/master/src/hashblock.h#L62

and a short time later, Chaincoin, which used the same algos but two appear in a slightly different sequence to Hash9.

https://github.com/chaincoin/chaincoin/blob/893af8e4bd73344c007b61c20e9b97b2a1cf7b02/src/hashblock.h#L54

Subsequently, according to the MOAR-HASHES!!! principle - I don't have any cryptography literature to reference, only psychological literature which, if you'll forgive me, I presume is probably outside your bailiwick - the fiction was developed up to and including X19 (IIRC).

I haven't any evidence that there has been a C11 ASIC released thus far but I understand there are one or two X11 ASIC offerings around.

From a cryptography standpoint, the approach fails on first principles - not only can the technique not be proven to strengthen the cryptography, it cannot be proven not to weaken it. For a more informed discussion, see http://crypto.stackexchange.com/a/3763, one example amongst many in the literature.

2. can we start the masternodes remotely like other masternode coins, and do we need a unique ip for each or just a different port.

Chaincoin 0.9.2 is based on Dash 0.9.2, you get whatever Dash was offering at the time, so the answer is probably “no-yes-no” (testnet is your friend).

3. and research or plans to expand the masternodes to do elastic computing instead of mining. "elastic chains" sounds great.

i) This is bitcointalk, talk is cheap and plans even cheaper.
ii) Chaincoin is open source software
iii) Ask yourself, is there a budget?

You may conclude: if there is an unadvertised research effort, it will remain opaque to casual enquirers. OTOH, if there is no public research effort, anyone is free to initiate one.

4. can the dev team introduce he/she/themselves?

i) After you
ii) I encourage you to reflect on where you first encountered the notion of “the dev [team]” w.r.t to an altcoin and whether this also might be a popular fiction, given the open source context.


Cheers

Graham


Thanks for the detailed reply Graham!

Just a clarification, Chaincoin was released before Darkcoin and was originally based on Zetacoin/Bitcoin, so the 11 chained hashing algo was first done by Chaincoin. Chaincoin only later adopted the Dash code base.
legendary
Activity: 2254
Merit: 1290
1. what are the 11 hashing algorithms chained and what are the benefits of such chaining.
2. can we start the masternodes remotely like other masternode coins, and do we need a unique ip for each or just a different port.
3. and research or plans to expand the masternodes to do elastic computing instead of mining. "elastic chains" sounds great.
4. can the dev team introduce he/she/themselves?

1. what are the 11 hashing algorithms chained and what are the benefits of such chaining.

C11 -> https://github.com/chaincoin/chaincoin/blob/master/src/hash.h#L194

(for reference, also see Darkcoin-now-Dash):

X11 > https://github.com/dx11/darkcoin/blob/master/src/hashblock.h#L62

The benefits are at best arguable and in peer-reviewed cryptography papers the technique (of serially chaining the output of different hash algorithms) has been characterised as “folklore”. The characterisation is accurate, as far as I can ascertain, according to my understanding of the bitcointalk origins of the approach:

The original notion of chaining the output-to-input of different hash algos (as opposed to Satoshi's double-wrapping of SHA2 to elide a speculated-upon length extension vulnerability) was proposed by the Russian developer(s) of SIFCoin, ANN, here translated informally:

Super secure hashing: 9 rounds of hashing from 6 hashing functions (blake, bmw, groestl, jh, keccak, skein). 3 rounds apply a random hashing function.
(my emphasis)

Although the claim of “super secure hashing” was later quietly dropped from the Quarkcoin rubric (presumably as indefensible), the fiction quickly spread amongst altcoin devs, starting with Darkcoin (which didn't even change the copy'n'pastad function name --- ”Hash9”):

https://github.com/dx11/darkcoin/blob/master/src/hashblock.h#L62

and a short time later, Chaincoin, which used the same algos but two appear in a slightly different sequence to Hash9.

https://github.com/chaincoin/chaincoin/blob/893af8e4bd73344c007b61c20e9b97b2a1cf7b02/src/hashblock.h#L54

Subsequently, according to the MOAR-HASHES!!! principle - I don't have any cryptography literature to reference, only psychological literature which, if you'll forgive me, I presume is probably outside your bailiwick - the fiction was developed up to and including X19 (IIRC).

I haven't any evidence that there has been a C11 ASIC released thus far but I understand there are one or two X11 ASIC offerings around.

From a cryptography standpoint, the approach fails on first principles - not only can the technique not be proven to strengthen the cryptography, it cannot be proven not to weaken it. For a more informed discussion, see http://crypto.stackexchange.com/a/3763, one example amongst many in the literature.

2. can we start the masternodes remotely like other masternode coins, and do we need a unique ip for each or just a different port.

Chaincoin 0.9.2 is based on Dash 0.9.2, you get whatever Dash was offering at the time, so the answer is probably “no-yes-no” (testnet is your friend).

3. and research or plans to expand the masternodes to do elastic computing instead of mining. "elastic chains" sounds great.

i) This is bitcointalk, talk is cheap and plans even cheaper.
ii) Chaincoin is open source software
iii) Ask yourself, is there a budget?

You may conclude: if there is an unadvertised research effort, it will remain opaque to casual enquirers. OTOH, if there is no public research effort, anyone is free to initiate one.

4. can the dev team introduce he/she/themselves?

i) After you
ii) I encourage you to reflect on where you first encountered the notion of “the dev [team]” w.r.t to an altcoin and whether this also might be a popular fiction, given the open source context.


Cheers

Graham
sr. member
Activity: 302
Merit: 250
Thanks for the replies.  Some more questions if I may.

-what are the 11 hashing algorithms chained and what are the benefits of such chaining.
-can we start the masternodes remotely like other masternode coins, and do we need a unique ip for each or just a different port.
-and research or plans to expand the masternodes to do elastic computing instead of mining. "elastic chains" sounds great.
-can the dev team introduce he/she/themselves?

thanks again for answering my questions and please direct me where to go for answers.

best.
legendary
Activity: 2254
Merit: 1290
Is the dev still actively developing the coin?  what is the funding mechanism for the development of the coin?  and immediate plans for the coin

See https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.18377599 (4 -5 posts back)

Chaincoin 0.9.2.3
Now with Windows installer and Mac wallet.
Windows Installer:
https[Suspicious link removed]
Mac Wallet:
https://github.com/chaincoin/chaincoin/releases/download/v0.9.2.3/Chaincoin-Qt-0.9.2.3.dmg
Other versions:
https://github.com/chaincoin/chaincoin/releases/tag/v0.9.2.3
What are your plans for this coin?
Develop an alternative to other MasterNode coins.

Cheers

Graham
Jump to: