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Topic: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) - page 7. (Read 67963 times)

legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
legendary
Activity: 905
Merit: 1012
That is normal for p2pool, and does not affect your payout. You may also try http://freicoin.us/
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1018
It's about time -- All merrit accepted !!!
I would be greatful if someone can recommend a decent active pool to mine Freicon ,

on p2pool i get about 13% rejects no matter how I adjust difficulty and that is only with 40 ghs
ECF
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
http://www.ecoinfund.com/images/logo.jpg

Website | Twitter  | Bitcointalk

Hi,Freicoin Community

We have added your coin to ECOINFUND vote list.(http://www.ecoinfund.com/vote
an effective vote will cost 10 ECFC; repeating vote are allowed; the Exchange Market will be open as soon as the voting reach 1000.!
ECFC is the fee share program launched by Ecoinfund. Ecoinfund will commit 50% of trade revenue to ECFC program. (highest on market ECFC Details)

Here the ways of getting ECFC:
1. buy the ECFC through our ECFC/BTC or ECFC/LTC market.
2. taking part into our GIVEAWAY.

Big ECFC GIVEAWAY before 10.May
Tweet this green text on your own twitter account then recive 20 ECFC;
Quote
ecoinfund.com |New Exchange,multi-language support,Earn 20 ECFC(fee shares) by every retweet before 10 May,don't miss the train!
Pls post your twitter link and Ecoinfund ID on  https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/annexchange-ecoinfundmulti-language-alt-coin-exchange-official-thread-501030 ,you will get 20 ECFC!

Happy trading !
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1018
It's about time -- All merrit accepted !!!
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1018
It's about time -- All merrit accepted !!!
Could some of you big asic players please join us in p2pool for freicon ..... we have not hit a block in more days than i can count

Hop in for a while please http://pool.freico.in:9638/static/
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
WTF?
I mean...Where's the FAQ?
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
Freicoin was added to voting at Comkort exchange.

Good luck!
legendary
Activity: 905
Merit: 1012
We would rather not distribute at all and let the coins disappear through demurrage, than do so in a rushed, unfair, centralized method. If we destroyed the private keys to the foundation funds, the coins would still enter circulation at around the same rate as bitcoin.
full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 100
Freicoin foundation had lots of time to move but seemed idle with the 80% of initial coins.

That's not true, the distribution has already started:

Distribution should have started a year ago which is where my idle comment comes from. It is good to hear that it has now started using your chosen system but I hope it is not too little too late.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1002
Freicoin foundation had lots of time to move but seemed idle with the 80% of initial coins.

That's not true, the distribution has already started:

http://foundation.freicoin.org/#/donations
http://freicoin.freeforums.org/matched-donations-program-update-t732.html

Perhaps there is time now to retry demurrage, there needs to be a new tier of crypto using a different hashing algorithm. Currently solutions are scattered and there is no standard. Perhaps this is a good time for Maaku to work on the next hashing standard and put demurrage at the top of it Smiley

I don't think there's any problem with SHA256 that needs to be solved [1]
Scrypt miserably "failed"[2] at being anti-GPU and it seems we will have scrypt ASICs soon as well [3]
There's no algorithm (and will never be) for which you cannot build specialized hardware, and in fact (according to some developers like gmaxwell) it seems that memory-hard algorithms ASIC will have a greater advantage in terms of power consumption over GPUs than SHA256 ASICs have. They will also be harder to design and build so there will probably less producers competing (thus causing more centralization, precisely what alt proofs of works are supposedly try to fight).

More importantly, with SHA256 you can have merged mining and leverage the greatest super-computer in the world: the bitcoin network itself.

For all these reasons and probably more I'm missing, no, we have no interest in working on an alternative hashing algorithm.

[1] http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-developer-jeff-garzik-on-altcoins-asics-and-bitcoin-usability/

[2] https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/artforz-and-coblee-gpu-mining-litecoin-since-the-start-63365
     https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.808501
     https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/heres-why-no-one-was-gpu-mining-litecoin-from-the-start-143659

[3] http://www.coindesk.com/alpha-technology-pre-orders-litecoin-asic-miners/
legendary
Activity: 905
Merit: 1012
I would encourage anyone that takes issue with the Freicoin Foundation to express your grievances and propose constructive solutions: how should the foundation spend those coins?

We've taken a hardline approach that the foundation will only spend coins in ways which are chosen in a decentralized way by the community (e.g. matching donations to any registered non-profit). If we are unable to distribute coins quickly enough by these mechanisms then they will simply demurrage away and are issued to miners over a longer period of time. We are okay with that, as a fallback plan if community agreement cannot be reached.

There are other decentralized, distributed, p2p mechanisms that we would like to use to handle issuance, such as the republicoin proposal: using proof-of-stake voting to determine how the coins should be spent on an ongoing basis. There are a small number technical issues that need to be worked out, and a lot of infrastructure built before republicoin could be rolled out. We can use some help on this.
donator
Activity: 293
Merit: 250
Whether or not there is matching is irrelevant - the foundation must decide either which charities are elligible, or who gets to vote on which charities are elligible. And the decisions to hold the coins pending a full plan, and to give them to charity, were both made without a vote.

Yes, this is the centralization point of the matched donations distribution. But any censored nonprofit can publicly denounce us.
No one has done it so far.

Here maaku has started an discussion about republicon. Who wants help to make decision making fully p2p feel free to join and help developing republicoin!
http://freicoin.freeforums.org/republicoin-design-discussion-t738.html

With simply voting through hashing power I see a big waste of energy, there must be something more democratic and energy friendly. Lets help to find such an algorithm!

full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 100
Freicoin foundation had lots of time to move but seemed idle with the 80% of initial coins. What a shame for such an interesting solution of demurrage. It is very tempting to put this into a new coin with no foundation as the fork you linked in was not a genuine attempt, more of a protest against the solution chosen. Demurrage is a great idea but unfortunately one that people do not want. If the world could be rebooted to use this perhaps it would work, but not in the world we live in.

Perhaps there is time now to retry demurrage, there needs to be a new tier of crypto using a different hashing algorithm. Currently solutions are scattered and there is no standard. Perhaps this is a good time for Maaku to work on the next hashing standard and put demurrage at the top of it Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1002
Off topic but I'll address it. The foundation funds are only spent through community mechanisms, e.g. matching donations. Neither Jorge nor I have any significant control over the destination of those coins.
Whether or not there is matching is irrelevant - the foundation must decide either which charities are elligible, or who gets to vote on which charities are elligible. And the decisions to hold the coins pending a full plan, and to give them to charity, were both made without a vote.

Yes, this is the centralization point of the matched donations distribution. But any censored nonprofit can publicly denounce us.
No one has done it so far.

Your opinion is that the seigniorage should be burned in mining subsidies and I respect that opinion, but you have to face that it is not shared by the majority of the freicoin community. Like I was told when I wanted Bitcoin itself to have demurrage: go ahead and fork freicoin to create an altcoin with demurrage and 100% issuance through mining subsidies.
Seigniorage is the difference between the cost to acquire a good and its market value. If Bitcoin has any seigniorage at all, it tends to zero just like mining profits. That's such a far cry from 80% seigniorage that when you first said this to me months ago, I was so disgusted that I remained silent until now.

Yes, profits tend to zero when time tends to infinity in perfect competition (something purely theoretical), so seigniorage to miners should tend to zero with time as well.
The rest is burned in mining costs, basically providing more security than users are paying for.
This is completely anti-ecological and therefore not aligned with Freicoin's core values.
The very inventor of proof of work-based scarcity refers to this as a "environmental crime".   

I cannot stress this enough, avoiding this waste is the primary reason behind the Freicoin Foundation, supporting nonprofits is just a nice side effect, the "less worse" distribution in my opinion.

There are two reasons I haven't forked:
1) I'm not skilled enough to maintain it properly.
2) I'm not convinced that demurrage is beneficial in the first place.
If anyone reading this does start a "equal rules for all" fork, please PM me and you'll have found your first speculator.

I thought you were for demurrage.
Maybe you can find someone here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/freicoin-frc-fork-without-80-of-coins-given-to-freicoin-foundation-134629
That didn't worked because the Freicoin community didn't think like him, but you could just start a completely new chain.

I won't oppose to a second demurrage cryptocurrency, but the freimarkets crowdfunding thread (or this thread) is just not the right place for starting it.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1002
full member
Activity: 239
Merit: 100
Hello there,

Reddit ALTcointip bot has just announced its 2nd round of signups for a list of supported cryptocurrencies.

Please see the announcement for details. Thanks!

-- vindimy
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1002
Since we're not assuming trust, this requires that every participant goes online and researches every receiving address.

Yes, we're assuming some level of trust, but not very high.

If we're honest, the only way to be sure about it is researching
every non-profit address and the charities themselves, or trust
someone else's research.

But if we cheat, it only takes a researcher to locate the proof of
fraud in the chain and show it to everyone.

Do you think this wasted effort is less than the effort wasted by mining? What about charities which close their websites someday after they've recieved funds, are new users expected to check those? Unless you're requiring trust, every user from now until the end of Freicoin will need to spend energy and time performing verification - it's like meatspace mining.

Future Freicoin users may have to trust that someone took the time to
audit the public accounting of an organization that no longer
influences freicoin supply in any way.

I don't think I was being clear here. If mined coins allow for matching funds, then any miner who would otherwise donate to charity has a greater incentive to earn them. So if I gain $1 of utility from donating 1 FRC to the EFF, I would rationally mine all the way to $2/FRC. So I pay $2 to mine 1 FRC @ $1/FRC, but get $2 worth of utility. At best, this means the same amount of energy spent.

Oh, I get your point now.
You're saying "if only miners donate to the non-profits and 100% of
miners mine at a loss only to give 100% of their earnings to the
non-profits, both systems are equivalent."
If frc is valued at 1 usd, miners profits should tend to decline so
that "production costs" equal 1 usd. But if miners are not counting
the 1 frc they receiving but the 1.1 frc the non-profits will get,
they will be ok with incurring 1.1 usd donation losses.
I'm assuming 10% donation matching by the foundation.
But miners can't mine 800 M frc in 3 years, so someone else will have
to make donations too, even assuming all miners donate everything
they get. And the matching of those donations cannot be counted as
production costs by the miners.

I think the comparison to XRP is fair. I can understand your argument that seigniorage can potentially be efficient, but I'd like to see how efficiently these coins are actually distributed when the time comes. My guess is that more time and effort will be spent, and most charities will just convert to BTC and then to local fiat.

I need to repeat that miner's profit are also seigniorage and bitcoin
also has it. But ANY seigniorage is more efficient than costs because
at least someone gets the value instead of it being completely
sacrificed by the community as a whole.

My guess is that more time and effort will be spent, and most charities will just convert to BTC and then to local fiat.

Well, that's very likely to happen, at least at the beginning, but
it's not the end of the world, someone will buy them and they're
already distributed. Of course, the ideal situation would be for them
to spend the FRC directly, but they converting to BTC and spending
them directly would help expand cryptocurrencies too, and it's not so
much to ask because there's already many things being sold for BTCs.

Maaku and I plan to operate a FRC/BTC exchange and offer automatic
conversion from it. So if you have FRC deposits, you can withdraw/pay
BTCs to any bitcoin address directly (and viceversa).

But for merchants that accept both, you will probably prefer to pay
FRC directly to save bitcoin's transaction fee, the trading fee and
the gap between bids and asks.

Quote
Believe it or not, there's people that prefer Freicoin's issuance
experiments over btc destruction and xrp privilege, and that's why it
has demand and a market price.
No offense, but I heard the exact same thing from RealSolid of SolidCoin. There is demand for every single alt coin here.

Ok, then just trust my word or ask to them yourself: although they're
still reluctant to use freicoin because of how different it is from
mutual credit, there's many people in the complementary currencies
movement that consider it a great improvement over bitcoin, and at
the same time changes a little bit their perception of bitcoin, which
they tend to criticize aggressively.
Finding out that the issuance doesn't require mining but you still
need it for security seems to make them accept the general concept
better.
sr. member
Activity: 341
Merit: 250
Is anything actually going on with this alt?  What has the "foundation" been up to?

I see the exchange rate is well below a penny now...
sr. member
Activity: 966
Merit: 311
At the current state there won't be an alternative to mining, aight? But if mining continues as slow as it is, there will be more energy efficient miners to do that necessary job...

The average time to solve a block is 29.73 minutes, since the algorithm change, a value which is declining as Freicoin miners realize they should not overreact to fluctuations in the difficulty.

Since the changeover in May 3,748 blocks have been solved.
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