[ANN] [PPC] PPCoin Released! - First Long-Term Energy-Efficient Crypto-Currency - page 73.

Yurizhai

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Quote from: Stark-Fujikawa on June 03, 2013, 04:07:53 PM

A user in the Dutch subforum asked me to translate Sunny King's original PPCoin whitepaper into Dutch. This work has been completed and while there may not be many Dutch users eyeing this topic I figured sharing it here can't hurt.

I've uploaded the pdf file on Scribd and Dropbox for your convenience.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/145481801/Bitcoin-A-Peer-to-Peer-Electronic-Cash-System-Dutch-translation
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k6vaybej4zl4mid/PPCoin-nl.pdf

Hope this leads to more people understanding and adopting PPCoin in the long run.

Noted, thanks for the hard work.

Stark-Fujikawa

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A user in the Dutch subforum asked me to translate Sunny King's original PPCoin whitepaper into Dutch. This work has been completed and while there may not be many Dutch users eyeing this topic I figured sharing it here can't hurt.

I've uploaded the pdf file on Scribd and Dropbox for your convenience.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/145481801/Bitcoin-A-Peer-to-Peer-Electronic-Cash-System-Dutch-translation
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k6vaybej4zl4mid/PPCoin-nl.pdf

Hope this leads to more people understanding and adopting PPCoin in the long run.

mhps

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Quote from: markm on June 03, 2013, 01:04:06 AM

A big difference now exists though apparently, since the big stakeholders of Novacoin have apparently decided that 1% per year is not enough loot, they are increasing the interest rate. The rich weren't getting richer fast enough I guess.

I kind of hope we won't see PPCoin go the same route...

I wondered what mechanism could be there to prevent/discourage this in https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2274721

markm

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Novacoin is similar to PPcoin in using stake, isn't it? I expect it is also similar in being lopsided, vast numbers of coins coming out in first few minutes, hours, days etc.

A big difference now exists though apparently, since the big stakeholders of Novacoin have apparently decided that 1% per year is not enough loot, they are increasing the interest rate. The rich weren't getting richer fast enough I guess.

I kind of hope we won't see PPCoin go the same route...

-MarkM-

mhps

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Quote from: Impaler on June 01, 2013, 09:32:10 PM

Actually I would argue that the demurrage code implemented in Freicoin now provides the technical solution to this problem, the increase in monetary base from PoS minting can be balanced by an equal amount of demurrage. Everyone would still engage in PoS mining to keep their current balance as to not mine would be to forfeit ones PoS minting while still paying demurrage.

Interesting idea.

Sunny King

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There is an ongoing proposal under review right now, which would pretty much eliminate the risk involved with running stake minting. This should also eliminate the trust required for proof-of-stake pools (although the profit motive is kinda small right now).

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ppc-proposal-ppcoin-online-stake-safety-194054

mhps

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Quote from: TheSeven on June 02, 2013, 10:39:22 AM

Quote from: mhps on June 02, 2013, 05:47:55 AM

I don't think it will take all that much resource to run a PoS pool server because there doesn't seem to be all that much computation (transaction) going on. I imaging a laptop with a reliable network connection would be good enough for a thousand users because the users don't want to disturb their coins often after all. At any moment there are maybe 10 users moving fund and checking balance. Talking about energy efficiency.

Right, that's a non-issue. The real issue is about trust/stealing funds. And why do things in an insecure way if you can do it securely (with cold-locked transactions)?

Security concerns are always there no matter if one of the technical issues is solved or not. It's a matter of mitigating the risks so that the users feel secure enough and the pool operator's liability is limited and stay interested/profit-making. There are many ways to assure the user e.g. good ol' keep-showing-up-in-bitcointalk-and-staying-responsive, publish identity and a pledge, get a reputable third party to vouch for the pool, some sort of insurance... of course the finacial crisis has shown that none of the above is 100% secure. But that is life.

gabbynot

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Quote from: ThemCoins on June 02, 2013, 07:25:34 PM

Quote from: gabbynot on June 02, 2013, 04:27:09 PM

Anyone know how many PPC were mined the first day/week?

I'm curious as to how this compares to the plethora of scamcoins currently available.

2,033,557 or 9,403% first day
3,887,831 or 20,331% first week
8,566,729 or 44,799% first month

19,122,497 total numbers of coins at the time of calculation.

Ouch...I was hoping it wasn't such a lopsided amount.

Thanks for the info.

ThemCoins

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Quote from: gabbynot on June 02, 2013, 04:27:09 PM

Anyone know how many PPC were mined the first day/week?

I'm curious as to how this compares to the plethora of scamcoins currently available.

2,033,557 or 9,403% first day
3,887,831 or 20,331% first week
8,566,729 or 44,799% first month

19,122,497 total number of coins at the time of calculation.

TheSeven

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Quote from: gabbynot on June 02, 2013, 04:27:09 PM

Anyone know how many PPC were mined the first day/week?

I'm curious as to how this compares to the plethora of scamcoins currently available.

My back-of-the-napkin calculations say about 5-10% of the currently existing coins during the first week.
However it should be noted that this will shrink even further as more coins are being generated, and that PPCoin - in contrast to bitcoin and most other altcoins - is based on a slightly inflationary economic model.

gabbynot

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Anyone know how many PPC were mined the first day/week?

I'm curious as to how this compares to the plethora of scamcoins currently available.

TheSeven

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Quote from: ewibit on June 02, 2013, 11:43:08 AM

Quote from: TheSeven on May 27, 2013, 01:42:40 PM

You should run ppcoind all the time, but shouldn't move around any funds if you want to mine proof of stake.

I'll assume that your balance consists of ~50 mined blocks with ~400 ppcoins each, and that you have mined them at a mostly constant rate.
This means that you mine about ~0.7 blocks per day, so ~29 of your blocks are older than 30 days. The younger ones are not eligible for proof of stake generation yet.

The proof of stake difficulty drops linear with the number of coin days destroyed in the "invested" funds, but it ignores the first 30 days.

does this mean if I reboot the computer for service and have been offline for 1 hour that the first 30 days are beginning new?
TIA

No, it counts the time since the funds were last moved, that has nothing to do with being connected to the network.

ewibit

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Quote from: TheSeven on May 27, 2013, 01:42:40 PM

You should run ppcoind all the time, but shouldn't move around any funds if you want to mine proof of stake.

I'll assume that your balance consists of ~50 mined blocks with ~400 ppcoins each, and that you have mined them at a mostly constant rate.
This means that you mine about ~0.7 blocks per day, so ~29 of your blocks are older than 30 days. The younger ones are not eligible for proof of stake generation yet.

The proof of stake difficulty drops linear with the number of coin days destroyed in the "invested" funds, but it ignores the first 30 days.

does this mean if I reboot the computer for service and have been offline for 1 hour that the first 30 days are beginning new?
TIA

markm

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This "problem" nicely matches a "problem" Open Transactions servers have.

With my Open Transactions server, I only issue stuff on the server for which I have the corresponding actual thing secured frozen in deep-freeze in a cold-wallet vault.

What incentive is there for anyone to tie up coins in such "frozen forever" deep freeze?

With PPcoin, I could maybe provide an incentive: I could make available to people the proof of stake mintage the frozen-forever coins can earn.

With all other coins I have had, myself, to provide the frozen-forever coins the traded tokens on the server represent.

Maybe with PPCoin I could talk some people into providing some PPCoin for me to freeze forever so I can issue dPPC (digiPPCoin) tokens on the server.

-MarkM-

TheSeven

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Quote from: mhps on June 02, 2013, 05:47:55 AM

I don't think it will take all that much resource to run a PoS pool server because there doesn't seem to be all that much computation (transaction) going on. I imaging a laptop with a reliable network connection would be good enough for a thousand users because the users don't want to disturb their coins often after all. At any moment there are maybe 10 users moving fund and checking balance. Talking about energy efficiency.

Right, that's a non-issue. The real issue is about trust/stealing funds. And why do things in an insecure way if you can do it securely (with cold-locked transactions)?

mhps

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Quote from: matauc12 on June 02, 2013, 03:01:36 AM

Quote from: mhps on June 02, 2013, 02:40:47 AM

Quote from: matauc12 on June 01, 2013, 11:39:24 PM

Its not about secretly stealing. Unlike pool mining, which doesn't hold that much coins, PoS mining would be about putting a lot of wealth into one hand. Its asking to be scammed.

So basically, sending all your moonies to someone, for what benefit really? I can barely see a benefit, even the benefits look like a downside.

Well if PPC is going to be a currency instead of a quaint comodity to buy and hold, trusting a significant portion of your money to someone else has to happen. Pretty all my money in the real world are in the hands of a few financial institutes. There are social and legal infrastructures to prevent them to steal my fund (except for the QE and Cyprus type of stealing which are totally different matters). PPC has better develop that infrastructure so that a reasonablly reputable pool's running away with your coins is highly improbable.

one of the very main reason cryptos exist is to exactly that. To dissociate from banks. To decentralized.

Again, you're asking for a lot of trouble for something with no gain.

It's like putting a twin turbo in an echo knowing it will decrease your hp by 10.

Sorry for messing up the quote structure in my previous post.

There has to be a layer of financial institution to take care of daily transactions of a crypto-currency. You can't expect normal people to wait for 15min to an hour for his cryptocoin transaction to clear at the supermarket checkout. Satoshi envisaged this layer. So depending on financial institutions is part of the plan all the time.

I don't think it will take all that much resource to run a PoS pool server because there doesn't seem to be all that much computation (transaction) going on. I imaging a laptop with a reliable network connection would be good enough for a thousand users because the users don't want to disturb their coins often after all. At any moment there are maybe 10 users moving fund and checking balance. Talking about energy efficiency.

matauc12

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Quote from: mhps on June 02, 2013, 02:40:47 AM

Quote from: matauc12 on June 01, 2013, 11:39:24 PM

Its not about secretly stealing. Unlike pool mining, which doesn't hold that much coins, PoS mining would be about putting a lot of wealth into one hand. Its asking to be scammed.

So basically, sending all your moonies to someone, for what benefit really? I can barely see a benefit, even the benefits look like a downside.

Well if PPC is going to be a currency instead of a quaint comodity to buy and hold, trusting a significant portion of your money to someone else has to happen. Pretty all my money in the real world are in the hands of a few financial institutes. There are social and legal infrastructures to prevent them to steal my fund (except for the QE and Cyprus type of stealing which are totally different matters). PPC has better develop that infrastructure so that a reasonablly reputable pool's running away with your coins is highly improbable.
[/quote] one of the very main reason cryptos exist is to exactly that. To dissociate from banks. To decentralized.

Again, you're asking for a lot of trouble for something with no gain.

It's like putting a twin turbo in an echo knowing it will decrease your hp by 10.

mhps

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Quote from: matauc12 on June 01, 2013, 11:39:24 PM

Its not about secretly stealing. Unlike pool mining, which doesn't hold that much coins, PoS mining would be about putting a lot of wealth into one hand. Its asking to be scammed.

So basically, sending all your moonies to someone, for what benefit really? I can barely see a benefit, even the benefits look like a downside.
[/quote]

Well if PPC is going to be a currency instead of a quaint comodity to buy and hold, trusting a significant portion of your money to someone else has to happen. Pretty all my money in the real world are in the hands of a few financial institutes. There are social and legal infrastructures to prevent them to steal my fund (except for the QE and Cyprus type of stealing which are totally different matters). PPC has better develop that infrastructure so that a reasonablly reputable pool's running away with your coins is highly improbable.

TheSeven

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Quote from: mhps on June 02, 2013, 02:24:38 AM

Quote from: matauc12 on June 01, 2013, 11:35:28 PM

You would really want to put 100% of your wealth in a pool for those little ''conveniences'' to mint around 1% of it yearly?

100% of my wealth? 0.001% is more close to it. More on that in my next post. Minting the PoS shares happens to be pretty much all I care about PPC.

Well, 100% of the PPC wealth that you want to earn proof of stake on, so you can view it as 100% of you compare risks with benefits.
Currently you need to basically transfer your funds to the pool (and hope on the pool paying them back on demand) if you want that pool to be able to mine proof of stake to you.

If such a thing is widely being asked for, we really need cold-locked transactions.

mhps

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Quote from: matauc12 on June 01, 2013, 11:35:28 PM

Quote from: mhps on June 01, 2013, 09:47:40 AM

Quote from: matauc12 on June 01, 2013, 09:16:26 AM

Quote from: mhps on June 01, 2013, 09:04:04 AM

Quote from: TheSeven on May 31, 2013, 07:38:16 PM

Any suggestions for further improvements?

How about pooled PoS mining? Just a thought.

There is no advantage to PoS pooling.

For one, if I don't want to have a local wallet I can still get PoS coins with PPCs I own. For two, if I can't get my wallet on-line often I can have accrued PoS income with pooled PoS mining which is online all the time. For three, I can check how much PoS coins I have made by clinking on the pool URL and be done in a few seconds instead of firing up the local wallet and starting sync'ing...

Those are all trivial points that are far out weighted by disadvantages.

Why not have a local wallet? It doesn't matter if your wallet is offline as long as its brought online once in a while.

I know many people don't have local wallets. Local wallets are a hassel to many normal people -- space taken by blockchain, backup, upgrading...

If you only put your wallet on line once in a long while, you loose the accrued (compound) PoS income. It matters for savers. And savers are important for PPC.

Quote

You would really want to put 100% of your wealth in a pool for those little ''conveniences'' to mint around 1% of it yearly?

100% of my wealth? 0.001% is more close to it. More on that in my next post. Minting the PoS shares happens to be pretty much all I care about PPC.

Quote

Pools were created to solve pretty substantial problems (possibility to make nothing but still paying the electricity bill). I don't really see the problems pooling PoS would solve.

Sure I can see my problem is not yours. It's all value judgement and opinions. I am just offering my thoughts.

Quote

Besides, if people want to put energy into creating infrastructures around PPC, time will be much better spent at a thousand places.

Like another round design of nice logos ? Wink

Topic: [ANN] [PPC] PPCoin Released! - First Long-Term Energy-Efficient Crypto-Currency - page 73. (Read 684874 times)