Topic: [ANN] [PPC] PPCoin Released! - First Long-Term Energy-Efficient Crypto-Currency - page 76. (Read 684839 times)

1% interest has no real effect for savers. It is just slow inflation on money supply. After one year you might have 1% more PPCoins but this doesn't let you buy more real goods just by itself. Only a rise in PPCoin value does. So there is no advantage over bitcoin at all due to such an interest rate.

The real advantage of PPC to me is an ecological one: All other major cryptos will soon waste an awful lot of energy. An ecological problem of that scale would most probably contribute to an economical one (externalized cost a.s.o.)

So PPCoin advertisement to me should focus on:

• explain people the wastefulness of BTC and LTC (this is not well done today. The PPC Paper just states the wastefulness of PoW but doesn't explain it in detail)
• show them why PPCoin is better in this regard
• And, by the way: Show people that PPCoin is backed and developed by more people than just Sunny King. This needs to become a community project (in reality and perception) instead of a one man show to build trust.

Please check my thread on PPC money supply over at ppcointalk.org. My concern is that PPCoin could be even slightly more volatile than BTC by design.

Ah, I see, thank you theseven.

Actually, the reward for a PoS block is 0.01 * coinyears destroyed, so whether you find a PoS block early or late (or even only mine PoS intermittently) doesn't directly impact your rewards.
There is an indirect impact though: If it takes you longer to find that proof of stake block, the probability that you'll move the funds before they've been used in a proof of stake block increases.

I'm not unlocked honestly.  Keep in mind that POS is random as well, yes you could 'expect' to get a block at some point, but still its all probabilities.  The reward for a block is a coin, btw...your stake is the coins that you used to find the block iirc.

Well, what about PPC simply not needing this kind of mostly untested emergency fixes, because it is not vulnerable to rapidly changing hashrate at all?

I would have to disagree with this.. frc just released a new client that has a new diff algo to minimize hash crash. 

why do you say that ppc is the most active?

Why wouldn't it? Development/news seems stagnant.

Yes, it is unlocked.  have you gotten any stake coins?

Is your wallet unlocked for minting?

anyone know why PPC is dropping?

and how about freicoin.. does frc offer anything as the 'spendable' type of alt.?


edit:  also, i have plenty of coinage avail in my ppc client for minting. but i have yet to see any listed as 'Stake'

The key is about getting to critical mass.  At the moment the 1% POS mint is an advantage vis-a-vis other cryptos.  If this advantage can be leveraged to secure a place as one of the 'mainstream cryptos' if and when such a group develops, then newer cryptos that have more attractive features may not be able to compete because people won't place any value in them.  A great example of belief over technology is PPC vs. BTC itself.  PPC has everything BTC has and more but the fact that BTC was there first and has greater penetration, market share, and users means that the currency carries a far higher value.  At the end of the day, all currencies, whether fiat or crypto only have value because a critical mass of people collectively believe in them.

The 1% is an advantage now and over the near term while competing currencies with similar features don't exist or have little traction.  The 1% is actually not interest at all.  A better way to describe it would be that it's inflation.  Interest is a part of the market that will eventually develop as a lending market develops and is not something that can be built into the codebase.  Inflation in tightly controlled amounts is fine.  I think the general rule of thumb is that as long as demand increases faster than supply there is no concern about some built-in inflation.  The code-based scarcity constraint is one of the factors that allow people to have confidence that a crypto will function as a store of value.  Higher code-based inflation may have the opposite effect and destroy confidence.

The bottom line is that better terms or features do not necessarily mean a competing crypto will gain traction.  I do think, however, that until such a time that PPC gains critical mass it is vulnerable as are all alternative cryptos.

If that works, what if someone comes up a copy of PPC and offer 2% "interest"? It will eat PPC's lunch. Actually why stop at 2% ? What about 10%? 50% ? You see my drift. In the real world you can't offer unlimitedly high interest rate because the interest rate is ultimately determined by how much return of investment you can get if you borrow someone's money to invest. If you offer an interest that is too high, you can't afford it.  Can someone tell me what prevents a crypto currency from offering a high interest rate? Is it the same factor that crippled PoW alt-coins that offer very short time between each new block (network latency)? If that is true, PPC is lighyears away from that limit. I see possibility of  a much higher interest rate.

I want to put one new idea out for everyone to ponder. 

The path the crypto currency market will take in its development is hard if not impossible to predict in the very long term of 20 years or so.  However, when we shorten the time frames up and focus on steps in the development we may be able to make some predictions with greater accuracy.  Specifically, I look at the near term of the next two to five years and I see a few important trends.

1) Bitcoin is not going away in the next five years.  Maybe it won't always be the de facto standard in crypto but for now and in the near future it is the flag bearer.

2) There are too many alternate cryptos in the market now.  There is too much noise in the market with currencies that don't have and probably never will carry any real value.  This brings the value of all alternate cryptos down because it creates confusion and therefore risk in the market.

3) In the near term there will be no viable lending market in BTC or other cryptos.  Until someone buys enough of a BTC stockpile to begin a viable lending business AND they find an adequate way to secure their loans we will not see interest paid on crypto holdings or the ability to 'short sell' a crypto.  Lending crypto is very unlike traditional lending because of the anonymous nature of the holding or the ownership itself.  To secure a loan a lender would have to seek real world collateral or guarantees.  This is a structural problem in the market that I believe will eventually be resolved but the how is not immediately clear.  Certainly, if we were to see corporations begin widespread adoption of cryptos we could see a lending market quickly evolve but I don't see any way this would happen without a rapid attempt at regulation by both state and supernational organizations. 

4) The Cyprus Precedent.  There is a lot of nervous money all over the world that is vulnerable to increased and questionable government taxation.  There have always been owners of grey or shadow money that are always seeking a safer haven but for the first time there are depositors that include normal middle-class individuals that have played by the rules and are now vulnerable to having their savings seized.   

5) Global interest rates will stay low for the foreseeable future.  Every major central bank, with the exception of China's, is running a massively stimulative monetary policy.  This has two important effects.  First, without taking credit risk, it is impossible for a depositor to earn interest on a real basis for short-term deposits.  In fact, when inflation adjusted, real interest rates in many countries are negative.  Second, this kind of monetary policy increases the risk of runaway inflation. 

All of these trends lead me to the new idea that I would like everyone to consider.  I believe there is a big opportunity for PPCoin in highlighting the 1% POS minting yield and creating a unique value proposition by defining it as the 'Savers' crypto currency.  You hold your money in PPCoin and when you spend it you convert it into BTC.  I was further thinking that we might try to brand the 'big three' of BTC, LTC, and PPC along these lines:  Save in PPC, Spend in BTC, Carry LTC.  The idea of including LTC involves the digital wallet in your smartphone and the fast transfer speeds- digital pocket cash, if you will.  I don't really like the idea of advocating for LTC but it works for PPC as it provides a paradigm and context for how an individual user (especially a new user) can understand and use cryptos.  If this became the common mindset, it deals a blow to all the other alternate cryptos out there because what purpose can they serve that is not already served by the big three?  Without including LTC I don't know that we can make that argument. 

Now, getting back to the savings differentiation let's discuss the basic definition of a currency.  A currency is something that is 1) a store of value and 2) a means of exchange.  PPC is a superior store of value (assuming liquidity) to BTC and LTC because of better security against a 51% attack and the 1% POS mint yield.  As a means of exchange it is inferior at this time because BTC has greater liquidity against all other cryptos and real currencies and is accepted by a larger number of merchants.  It's inferior to LTC as a means of exchange today because of its slower transfer speeds.  I therefore believe that rather than trying to effectively compete with BTC or LTC by getting more merchants using PPC we should be focusing our efforts as a community to spreading the message of PPC as the Savers Crypto.  We focus on the key positive differentiator that PPC has over all others- 1% POS minting yield- and make this the selling point.  Of course, if merchants accept PPC that's a positive but I think the opportunity lies in evangelizing the relative advantage of PPC.

Imagine for a second what would happen if people placed even 10% of their BTC holdings in PPC.  This would be about $150 million USD of inflows into PPC.  The appreciation of the currency would be extreme, to say the least.  Now, if cryptos were to mirror the way people treat fiat currency, we would soon see much more money in savings than in liquid cash or checkable deposits.  In fiat terms M2 is multiples of M1.  The potential for PPC, if adopted as the 'savings crypto' is tremendous.  Consider also, that if people are saving even moderate proportions of their crypto holdings in PPC the need for BTC as an intermediate currency decreases.  That is, if everyone has it, merchant adoption will automatically increase because they need to save as well and neither they nor their customers want to have to pay an extra transaction cost of conversion to/from BTC.  The path to possibly eclipsing BTC starts with an adjacency that complements BTC.

One other point to make is about volatility.  When BTC trades in a range from 50 - 260 USD in just a few days, the 1% minting yield becomes irrelevant even though it beats fiat rates.  A liquid market is important but a stable market is equally important.  If you look at the lack of major volatility in BTC over the last week and in the longer periods prior to the last run-up and crash, this is the kind of market that would be ideal for PPC proliferation and adoption.  A slow increase in BTC combined with a growing belief in the superiority of PPCoin for savers would be ideal because holders would get the 1% yield and a steady capital appreciation.

The major problem with advocating PPC as I describe is that we need improvements to the wallet.  Presently, the wallet can only mint POS coins if it is unlocked.  I think Sunny is already working on this.  A further security improvement of 'cold-locked transactions' has already been proposed by Sunny though no development timetable has been released.  With these two security improvements in place we might expect faster traction of PPC adoption as a Savers Crypto.  I would put it to the community that right now getting a locked minting wallet in place is the highest priority for development of the currency.

Beyond the technology, there is everything else that can be done to promote this concept.  Building it into the presentation and messaging of the coin on the official site, into the new designs that people have been playing with, into the conversations that we all have about PPC and crypto in general...

Thanks for taking the time to read this.  I look forward to hearing your thoughts and discussing this with you all.  I will be posting this in ppcointalk.org as well.

It's because some people see the only activity in PPC the last few weeks is in the creation of a logo.

Maybe there's other developments, but those seem to be on the back burner.

We do, its just a matter of getting the community involved, and as with the designs you can see how the forward momentum of a few people will carry on to several.

I've lost touch temporarily (and perhaps worn out my welcome ) with the lady who was doing designs for me, so that's my problem.  I posted on bitcointalk trying to get people remotivated as I actually think the design is something that should be hammered out as its pretty important and I honestly think we have some good ideas going.  Its just a matter of actually putting the finishing touches upon something that a majority of us can agree upon (all just will never happen with this many people).

Looks like interest has died down on the design front. Is that because consensus was not met or there was little interest from the only one that matters (Sunny)?

I'm noticing that ppc is having some trouble on the charts. Perhaps the goals are a bit longer term than just the latest swings, hope so since long term ecological viability is one of the main points to ppc. Still, I wonder if there are others  like myself who are coming with high hopes and yet are dashed by stagnation on the easy to solve image problem.

It'd be nice to see the issue closed by either a democratic vote at some point (preferably sooner rather than later) or a unilateral decision by Sunny on one of the designs or some version there of.

I'd just hate to see people loose interest because there is seemingly little forward motion. Personally, I've been convinced of the technical merits. I just hope that we've got something solid which can be rallied around.

Sunny didn't make the qt version, just the daemon. I don't know if he intends to maintain the GUI himself. Somebody should modify and port this to PPC though: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/yet-another-coin-control-release-closed-144331

It would be really handy to see the priority of your coins for generating stake and be able to spend those least likely in the near future.

Sunny, when a new client update will be available?
i see that the debug window is missing from client, it is very useful indeed

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