[ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin" - page 297.

dooglus

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Quote from: TooDumbForBitcoin on September 16, 2015, 01:34:22 PM

The user doesn't owe the exchange money until a purchase is made on the exchange. Until a purchase is made on the exchange, the BTC deposited at the exchange belong to the user.

Once the user deposits coins to the exchange, the exchange owes the user those coins. The balance in the deposit address is irrelevant. The exchange will probably use the deposited coins very quickly to service the withdrawals of other users.

Sometimes people watch the balance on "their" deposit addresses and panic when the balance unexpectedly drops to zero. The fundamental mistake they are making is to think of the deposit address as being "theirs" at all. It's an address in the exchange's wallet, and the exchange is free to use it however they like.

Imagine someone getting upset when they deposit $20 into their bank account and see the bank give the same $20 bill to some other customer. When you deposit $20, the bank's liability to you grows by $20. But what they do with the individual bill you deposited is none of your business. It's the same with exchanges.

ajareselde

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Satoshi is rolling in his grave. #bitcoin

Quote from: TooDumbForBitcoin on September 16, 2015, 01:34:22 PM

Quote from: dooglus on September 16, 2015, 11:59:13 AM

Quote from: SuperClam on September 16, 2015, 12:06:39 AM

"Addresses", afterall, are nothing more than a cryptographic public key; despite the community commonly calling them otherwise.
These public keys are assigned to specific users and could be considered much the same as an after-hours drop box.

Unless an exchange specifically enumerated otherwise in their Terms-Of-Service, I think it is reasonable to assume that a customer might have a legal expectation that assets arriving at a cryptographic key assigned to them, be attributed to them.

I don't see it that way.

Consider this example:

You owe me money, so I give you my address to send payment to. You send the money, it arrives at my address. If someone else eavesdrops on our transaction and sends another payment to my address for fun, that's free money for me. You have no claim on that payment. It went to my address after all, and is nothing to do with you.

I think the confusion comes when people think in terms of "my deposit address" at an exchange. The deposit address is nothing but a hash of a public key in the exchange's wallet. It's owned by the exchange, not the user, since the exchange are the ones in sole control of the corresponding private key.

You can argue that it's good PR for the exchange to share the free CLAMs that you gave them, but I really don't think you can make a good legal (or even ethical) argument that they have a duty to do so.

The user doesn't owe the exchange money until a purchase is made on the exchange. Until a purchase is made on the exchange, the BTC deposited at the exchange belong to the user.

I agree. But on another note, the btc address itself belongs to exchange. And since you need both address and funds in order to receive CLAMS, the fair thing to do would be
to split 50-50. Or like dooglus said - the exchange could make it a PR thing and just share the CLAM with it's users; they make enough as it is imho.

cheers

TooDumbForBitcoin

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Quote from: dooglus on September 16, 2015, 11:59:13 AM

Quote from: SuperClam on September 16, 2015, 12:06:39 AM

"Addresses", afterall, are nothing more than a cryptographic public key; despite the community commonly calling them otherwise.
These public keys are assigned to specific users and could be considered much the same as an after-hours drop box.

Unless an exchange specifically enumerated otherwise in their Terms-Of-Service, I think it is reasonable to assume that a customer might have a legal expectation that assets arriving at a cryptographic key assigned to them, be attributed to them.

I don't see it that way.

Consider this example:

You owe me money, so I give you my address to send payment to. You send the money, it arrives at my address. If someone else eavesdrops on our transaction and sends another payment to my address for fun, that's free money for me. You have no claim on that payment. It went to my address after all, and is nothing to do with you.

I think the confusion comes when people think in terms of "my deposit address" at an exchange. The deposit address is nothing but a hash of a public key in the exchange's wallet. It's owned by the exchange, not the user, since the exchange are the ones in sole control of the corresponding private key.

You can argue that it's good PR for the exchange to share the free CLAMs that you gave them, but I really don't think you can make a good legal (or even ethical) argument that they have a duty to do so.

The user doesn't owe the exchange money until a purchase is made on the exchange. Until a purchase is made on the exchange, the BTC deposited at the exchange belong to the user.

ajareselde

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Activity: 1722

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Satoshi is rolling in his grave. #bitcoin

Quote from: dooglus on September 16, 2015, 11:59:13 AM

Quote from: SuperClam on September 16, 2015, 12:06:39 AM

"Addresses", afterall, are nothing more than a cryptographic public key; despite the community commonly calling them otherwise.
These public keys are assigned to specific users and could be considered much the same as an after-hours drop box.

Unless an exchange specifically enumerated otherwise in their Terms-Of-Service, I think it is reasonable to assume that a customer might have a legal expectation that assets arriving at a cryptographic key assigned to them, be attributed to them.

I don't see it that way.

Consider this example:

You owe me money, so I give you my address to send payment to. You send the money, it arrives at my address. If someone else eavesdrops on our transaction and sends another payment to my address for fun, that's free money for me. You have no claim on that payment. It went to my address after all, and is nothing to do with you.

I think the confusion comes when people think in terms of "my deposit address" at an exchange. The deposit address is nothing but a hash of a public key in the exchange's wallet. It's owned by the exchange, not the user, since the exchange are the ones in sole control of the corresponding private key.

You can argue that it's good PR for the exchange to share the free CLAMs that you gave them, but I really don't think you can make a good legal (or even ethical) argument that they have a duty to do so.

You are looking it only from one side. One might argue that it's the same thing as sending funds to an escrow; so would it be morally correct for escrow to profit from my funds ?
The time of "claim" was 2014-07-31 btw.

Anyways, it doesn't matter really, since there's nothing we can do about it. All i wanted to say from the start is that it would be sort of better if exchange addresses were
ignored in the CLAM claims. But that's just one man's opinion i guess.

cheers

dooglus

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Quote from: SuperClam on September 16, 2015, 12:06:39 AM

"Addresses", afterall, are nothing more than a cryptographic public key; despite the community commonly calling them otherwise.
These public keys are assigned to specific users and could be considered much the same as an after-hours drop box.

Unless an exchange specifically enumerated otherwise in their Terms-Of-Service, I think it is reasonable to assume that a customer might have a legal expectation that assets arriving at a cryptographic key assigned to them, be attributed to them.

I don't see it that way.

Consider this example:

You owe me money, so I give you my address to send payment to. You send the money, it arrives at my address. If someone else eavesdrops on our transaction and sends another payment to my address for fun, that's free money for me. You have no claim on that payment. It went to my address after all, and is nothing to do with you.

I think the confusion comes when people think in terms of "my deposit address" at an exchange. The deposit address is nothing but a hash of a public key in the exchange's wallet. It's owned by the exchange, not the user, since the exchange are the ones in sole control of the corresponding private key.

You can argue that it's good PR for the exchange to share the free CLAMs that you gave them, but I really don't think you can make a good legal (or even ethical) argument that they have a duty to do so.

dooglus

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Activity: 2940

Merit: 1333

Quote from: ajareselde on September 16, 2015, 09:12:39 AM

I can't say for sure, i do know i made a direct auto withdraw to an exchange (dogecoin is in question) so it could be any of them , since they all changed deposit addresses.
I mostly used cryptsy bittrex and poloniex . If i find more info on it, ill post it here, but i definitely consider the issue unmoral from exchange sites who did cash in on clams.

I expect it was poloniex then. They dug up all their CLAMs early on and held a giveaway to distribute the CLAMs to their users.

Check the timestamps when the CLAMs first moved. That will be a good way of telling whether it was poloniex or not, because I'm sure someone will know when they did their digging.

ajareselde

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Satoshi is rolling in his grave. #bitcoin

Quote from: BayAreaCoins on September 16, 2015, 12:16:01 AM

Quote from: ajareselde on September 15, 2015, 10:34:43 PM

It's a serious thing, don't see whats funny there nor did i mention CB :/

It is a serious thing. I know you didn't mention CB. Would you mind saying which exchange it was that you noticed your CLAMS being dug off?

I can't say for sure, i do know i made a direct auto withdraw to an exchange (dogecoin is in question) so it could be any of them , since they all changed deposit addresses.
I mostly used cryptsy bittrex and poloniex . If i find more info on it, ill post it here, but i definitely consider the issue unmoral from exchange sites who did cash in on clams.

cheers

dre1982

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★Bitvest.io★ Play Plinko or Invest!

Quote from: dooglus on September 15, 2015, 06:23:47 PM

Quote from: dre1982 on September 15, 2015, 12:40:03 PM

Probably already asked a lot but can't find it that quick.

Is it safe to import a wallet which is still in use?

Importing a wallet basically makes a copy of it inside the CLAM wallet. So if anyone ever manages to get a copy of your CLAM wallet, they will also have access to any coins in any of the wallets you imported into it. The official version of the CLAM client itself doesn't take advantage of that, but someone managing to get a copy of your CLAM wallet could do, as could a rogue unofficial version of the CLAM client. So recommended standard practice is to empty and retire your wallets before importing them into the CLAM client.

ok thanks for answering. I will copy my funds to a new wallet.

BayAreaCoins

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Owner at AltQuick.com

Quote from: ajareselde on September 15, 2015, 10:34:43 PM

It's a serious thing, don't see whats funny there nor did i mention CB :/

It is a serious thing. I know you didn't mention CB. Would you mind saying which exchange it was that you noticed your CLAMS being dug off?

Quote from: SuperClam on September 16, 2015, 12:06:39 AM

But, alas, it is up to the specific user to request exchanges or other third-parties distribute.

^This 1000x over.

If I was you I'd be emailing the shit out of them and then providing public proof.

SuperClam

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CLAM Developer

Quote from: ajareselde on September 15, 2015, 10:34:43 PM

Quote from: BayAreaCoins on September 15, 2015, 07:49:03 PM

Quote from: ajareselde on September 15, 2015, 07:45:33 PM

I have skimmed over some of mine, and clam has been claimed on them, which proves this ?!

Which exchange?
I'd lol so hard if you say Coinbase.

It's a serious thing, don't see whats funny there nor did i mention CB :/

Quote from: dooglus on September 15, 2015, 08:25:58 PM

Quote from: ajareselde on September 15, 2015, 07:45:33 PM

Isn't this insanely beneficial for exchanges since they hold vast amount of addresses that their users used to deposit btc/ltc/doge ?
I have skimmed over some of mine, and clam has been claimed on them, which proves this ?!

It's insanely beneficial for exchanges and other services that didn't keep their wallets tidy.
I was running Just-Dice at the time of the snapshot, but regularly swept coins from deposit addresses to a single offsite cold storage address, so the Just-Dice hot wallet received very few CLAMs.
It's kind of a shame that the initial CLAM distribution rewarded those who practiced poor wallet maintenance. But what can you do.

It's a sad thing watching my deposit addresses being claimed, when 90% of my old ones have no clam's to claim , but still, i found ~20 that do.
Reading up on stacking now, but i'm not optimistic :/
cheers

This may be a controversial opinion - however, I have long argued that exchanges should distribute claimed CLAM to their users.

I would go so far as to suggest that exchanges had/have a responsibility to do so.

"Addresses", afterall, are nothing more than a cryptographic public key; despite the community commonly calling them otherwise.
These public keys are assigned to specific users and could be considered much the same as an after-hours drop box.

Unless an exchange specifically enumerated otherwise in their Terms-Of-Service, I think it is reasonable to assume that a customer might have a legal expectation that assets arriving at a cryptographic key assigned to them, be attributed to them.

But, alas, it is up to the specific user to request exchanges or other third-parties distribute.
You can lead a horse to water; but, you can't make them drink.

ajareselde

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Activity: 1722

Merit: 1000

Satoshi is rolling in his grave. #bitcoin

Quote from: BayAreaCoins on September 15, 2015, 07:49:03 PM

Quote from: ajareselde on September 15, 2015, 07:45:33 PM

I have skimmed over some of mine, and clam has been claimed on them, which proves this ?!

Which exchange?

I'd lol so hard if you say Coinbase.

It's a serious thing, don't see whats funny there nor did i mention CB :/

Quote from: dooglus on September 15, 2015, 08:25:58 PM

Quote from: ajareselde on September 15, 2015, 07:45:33 PM

Isn't this insanely beneficial for exchanges since they hold vast amount of addresses that their users used to deposit btc/ltc/doge ?
I have skimmed over some of mine, and clam has been claimed on them, which proves this ?!

It's insanely beneficial for exchanges and other services that didn't keep their wallets tidy.

I was running Just-Dice at the time of the snapshot, but regularly swept coins from deposit addresses to a single offsite cold storage address, so the Just-Dice hot wallet received very few CLAMs.

It's kind of a shame that the initial CLAM distribution rewarded those who practiced poor wallet maintenance. But what can you do.

It's a sad thing watching my deposit addresses being claimed, when 90% of my old ones have no clam's to claim , but still, i found ~20 that do.
Reading up on stacking now, but i'm not optimistic :/

cheers

dooglus

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Activity: 2940

Merit: 1333

Quote from: ajareselde on September 15, 2015, 07:45:33 PM

Isn't this insanely beneficial for exchanges since they hold vast amount of addresses that their users used to deposit btc/ltc/doge ?
I have skimmed over some of mine, and clam has been claimed on them, which proves this ?!

It's insanely beneficial for exchanges and other services that didn't keep their wallets tidy.

I was running Just-Dice at the time of the snapshot, but regularly swept coins from deposit addresses to a single offsite cold storage address, so the Just-Dice hot wallet received very few CLAMs.

It's kind of a shame that the initial CLAM distribution rewarded those who practiced poor wallet maintenance. But what can you do.

BayAreaCoins

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Activity: 4004

Merit: 1250

Owner at AltQuick.com

Quote from: ajareselde on September 15, 2015, 07:45:33 PM

I have skimmed over some of mine, and clam has been claimed on them, which proves this ?!

Which exchange?

I'd lol so hard if you say Coinbase.

ajareselde

legendary

Activity: 1722

Merit: 1000

Satoshi is rolling in his grave. #bitcoin

Isn't this insanely beneficial for exchanges since they hold vast amount of addresses that their users used to deposit btc/ltc/doge ?
I have skimmed over some of mine, and clam has been claimed on them, which proves this ?!

dooglus

legendary

Activity: 2940

Merit: 1333

Quote from: dre1982 on September 15, 2015, 12:40:03 PM

Probably already asked a lot but can't find it that quick.

Is it safe to import a wallet which is still in use?

Importing a wallet basically makes a copy of it inside the CLAM wallet. So if anyone ever manages to get a copy of your CLAM wallet, they will also have access to any coins in any of the wallets you imported into it. The official version of the CLAM client itself doesn't take advantage of that, but someone managing to get a copy of your CLAM wallet could do, as could a rogue unofficial version of the CLAM client. So recommended standard practice is to empty and retire your wallets before importing them into the CLAM client.

BayAreaCoins

legendary

Activity: 4004

Merit: 1250

Owner at AltQuick.com

Quote from: dre1982 on September 15, 2015, 12:40:03 PM

Probably already asked a lot but can't find it that quick.

Is it safe to import a wallet which is still in use?

It maybe "safe", but why risk it?

Don't be lazy and sweep your coins out of the compromised wallets is my recommendation.

dre1982

sr. member

Activity: 770

Merit: 284

★Bitvest.io★ Play Plinko or Invest!

Probably already asked a lot but can't find it that quick.

Is it safe to import a wallet which is still in use?

dooglus

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Activity: 2940

Merit: 1333

Quote from: Nextgen on September 15, 2015, 07:30:53 AM

guys how do i -reindex wallet Huh

when i type -reindex on console it says "method not found" ??

Run the client executable with the -reindex flag.

In Windows that probably means either using the command line cmd.txt tool to launch it:

clam-qt -reindex

Or editing the properties of the shortcut you use to launch it, and adding -reindex to the target.

dooglus

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Quote from: kito on September 15, 2015, 07:23:31 AM

Quote from: mookid on September 15, 2015, 01:04:59 AM

I just found out i had 13.8 CLAMS, is staking feasible with this amount?...

Move your mouse over the ticket icon on the bottom left corner of the clam client. It will pop up a message on the expected stake time.

The network weight is currently showing as 742000.
Divide that by your number of CLAMs to get a number of minutes per stake.
Divide by 60 and 24 to get an expected number of days to stake.

I get 742000 / 13.8 / 60 / 24 = 37.33 days.

So it's "feasible" but probably not worthwhile unless you were going to be leaving the computer on all the time anyway.

Nextgen

sr. member

Activity: 410

Merit: 250

guys how do i -reindex wallet Huh

when i type -reindex on console it says "method not found" ??

Topic: [ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin" - page 297. (Read 1151252 times)