[ANN][DCR] Decred - Community Governance | Bitcoin Devs | Lightning Network - page 17.

fredine

newbie

Activity: 15

Merit: 0

Quote from: jwinterm on September 15, 2019, 10:06:46 AM

Putting aside the details of devs staking the premine and vote losers still being able to fork away, this was my main point in the previous page:

Quote

If Bitcoin used this system then Barry Silbert would have activated segwit2x in like thirty seconds, and I'm not sure that's a good thing. Apparently the market as a whole is skeptical as well that Decred is "bitcoin upgraded" considering it's price versus BTC has dropped by over 50% in the last six months.

I just don't think the market as a whole considers any "governance" structure as better, whether it's the eth benevolent dictator model, Monero's technocratic approach, Decred richest holders decide, or anything else. Yes, the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent, but I think the market tends towards the best choice, and looking at a time period of 3-5 years now that choice is clearly bitcoin.

Yeah I agree with you, bitcoin is cleary #1 choice but Decred will be #2 SoV coin considering its potential.

IncludeBeer

legendary

Activity: 1164

Merit: 1010

Quote from: jwinterm on September 15, 2019, 10:06:46 AM

Putting aside the details of devs staking the premine and vote losers still being able to fork away, this was my main point in the previous page:

Quote

If Bitcoin used this system then Barry Silbert would have activated segwit2x in like thirty seconds, and I'm not sure that's a good thing. Apparently the market as a whole is skeptical as well that Decred is "bitcoin upgraded" considering it's price versus BTC has dropped by over 50% in the last six months.

I just don't think the market as a whole considers any "governance" structure as better, whether it's the eth benevolent dictator model, Monero's technocratic approach, Decred richest holders decide, or anything else. Yes, the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent, but I think the market tends towards the best choice, and looking at a time period of 3-5 years now that choice is clearly bitcoin.

True enough, historically! I expect sentiments will shift after Politeia's value is demonstrated a few times over sufficiently 'difficult' or 'controversial' decisions need to be made. Plus, once the Treasury (dev fund) is truly decentralized, and solely ticket holders have the power of releasing those funds, well that will be something special I think. IMO, the self-sustaining feature on this SoV coin will prove itself to be highly-valuable in the years to come.

jwinterm

legendary

Activity: 3178

Merit: 1119

Putting aside the details of devs staking the premine and vote losers still being able to fork away, this was my main point in the previous page:

Quote

If Bitcoin used this system then Barry Silbert would have activated segwit2x in like thirty seconds, and I'm not sure that's a good thing. Apparently the market as a whole is skeptical as well that Decred is "bitcoin upgraded" considering it's price versus BTC has dropped by over 50% in the last six months.

I just don't think the market as a whole considers any "governance" structure as better, whether it's the eth benevolent dictator model, Monero's technocratic approach, Decred richest holders decide, or anything else. Yes, the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent, but I think the market tends towards the best choice, and looking at a time period of 3-5 years now that choice is clearly bitcoin.

EmilioMann

legendary

Activity: 2184

Merit: 1028

#mitandopelomundo

If you received the confirmation email, then you already had your seed.
It appeared in the first few steps when you typed the commands into the terminal.
Probably, you didn't read everything and deleted them.
Once deleted it is impossible to recover them and it was written there.
Again: If you have reached the confirmation email, then you received your seed before together with the wallet address but you didn't see
The fault of having lost is your that did not read all the text that received in the terminal.
Do you want me to draw a picture for you to understand easier?

gembitz

hero member

Activity: 1848

Merit: 640

*Brute force will solve any Bitcoin problem*

Quote from: opmules on September 13, 2019, 04:16:02 PM

Quote from: jwinterm on September 13, 2019, 03:49:55 PM

What exactly was inaccurate in what I said? I would guess most users that received the airdrop don't have a computer on 24 hours a day with a high reliability internet connection. There's a big spike up in ticket price visible on the all time chart here https://dcrstats.com/ around early 2017 followed by a slight change in slope upwards which would be my guess as to when the stake pool software was released allowing broader participation.

It's inaccurate to say that devs were the only one able to stake from the start, a basic dsl connection worked just fine. But sure you needed a PC. I'm not sure which big spike you are referring to but the switch to a more steady slope correspond to the activation of the first change in consensus rules voted to switch the ticket pricing algorithm, (sdiffalgorithm ) which was known for having crazy oscillation. In fact you can see pretty clearly on that chart that if you remove the spikes caused by that algorithm early on, the mean price is a pretty linear slope since voting started. You can find the details on the initial algorithm and the proposed change here: https://github.com/decred/dcps/blob/master/dcp-0001/dcp-0001.mediawiki

these "devs" have their heads so far up their own asses that they couldn't even spent 5 minutes to show me how to generate a seed to receive my airdrop coins, now what makes you think they would allow control of the majority of voting power to anyone but themselves and bittrex/poloniex exchange insider overlords..stop and think :\ pfft meh ego gets rekt

===> censorship is key to control this dialog.

IncludeBeer

legendary

Activity: 1164

Merit: 1010

Quote from: DrBeer on September 13, 2019, 05:48:48 PM

The claim to the voting system is not entirely clear. Look at the distribution of DCR coins by wallets - “small” holders can, and without any difficulties, create a group of votes that will easily lead the vote in their favor.

Not sure what you mean..."small" holders still must lock their DCR for tickets. Only tickets vote, and the price of tickets is tightly associated with how many are currently "live" on the network.
It is not the case that people can "create a group of votes that will easily lead the vote in their favor" without putting in the requisite funds to buy the tickets first.
Skin in the game is what counts here. Smaller holders have less skin in, thus cannot sway results as described.

gembitz

hero member

Activity: 1848

Merit: 640

*Brute force will solve any Bitcoin problem*

Quote from: EmilioMann on September 13, 2019, 01:49:12 PM

LOL the fudders decided to make a coordinated attack.
As has been said a thousand times before, but gembitz e jwinterm ignore, the premine was distributed via airdrop to the community and the other half was not for "the developers" but for the "development fund", which is also used to pay marketing, designers, events, etc.

About the vote, you must also have more than 60% of your total votes for your proposal to be validated.
You may have the most votes "yes", but if many of the other people clicked "no" on your proposal, you will need more votes to reach 60% of the total (yes+no).

LOL the paid pumpers GOGOGOOOO!! Wink

when phishing airdrop 2.0??

DrBeer

legendary

Activity: 3752

Merit: 1864

The claim to the voting system is not entirely clear. Look at the distribution of DCR coins by wallets - “small” holders can, and without any difficulties, create a group of votes that will easily lead the vote in their favor.

jwinterm

legendary

Activity: 3178

Merit: 1119

Quote from: opmules on September 13, 2019, 04:53:15 PM

No you can do it yourself....

Quote from: jwinterm on September 13, 2019, 01:46:09 PM

I thought the devs started staking from day one, and there wasn't any stake pool software available for quite some time, and they were staking the premine, so they basically collected all staking rewards for the first six or twelve months.

Your argument is basically that nobody but the devs could mine Bitcoin until late 2010, because the was no mining pool. But all you needed was an online PC and internet access, just like with Decred.

Anyway, I guess you don't really care about any of this, so I'm out..

Ok, I was wrong about day one, however they still had a substantial advantage over miners and airdrop receivers by staking the premine from the first available opportunity, at a time when most people without vps wouldn't bother to stake.

My argument is more like Satoshi had a significant advantage over other miners because of the 10% premine he had (or course not) taken.

Anyways, I more think the governance structure kind of sucks regardless of the premine.

opmules

newbie

Activity: 6

Merit: 0

No you can do it yourself....

Quote from: jwinterm on September 13, 2019, 01:46:09 PM

I thought the devs started staking from day one, and there wasn't any stake pool software available for quite some time, and they were staking the premine, so they basically collected all staking rewards for the first six or twelve months.

Your argument is basically that nobody but the devs could mine Bitcoin until late 2010, because the was no mining pool. But all you needed was an online PC and internet access, just like with Decred.

Anyway, I guess you don't really care about any of this, so I'm out..

jwinterm

legendary

Activity: 3178

Merit: 1119

You're putting words in my mouth.

opmules

newbie

Activity: 6

Merit: 0

Quote from: jwinterm on September 13, 2019, 03:49:55 PM

What exactly was inaccurate in what I said? I would guess most users that received the airdrop don't have a computer on 24 hours a day with a high reliability internet connection. There's a big spike up in ticket price visible on the all time chart here https://dcrstats.com/ around early 2017 followed by a slight change in slope upwards which would be my guess as to when the stake pool software was released allowing broader participation.

It's inaccurate to say that devs were the only one able to stake from the start, a basic dsl connection worked just fine. But sure you needed a PC. I'm not sure which big spike you are referring to but the switch to a more steady slope correspond to the activation of the first change in consensus rules voted to switch the ticket pricing algorithm, (sdiffalgorithm ) which was known for having crazy oscillation. In fact you can see pretty clearly on that chart that if you remove the spikes caused by that algorithm early on, the mean price is a pretty linear slope since voting started. You can find the details on the initial algorithm and the proposed change here: https://github.com/decred/dcps/blob/master/dcp-0001/dcp-0001.mediawiki

jwinterm

legendary

Activity: 3178

Merit: 1119

What exactly was inaccurate in what I said? I would guess most users that received the airdrop don't have a computer on 24 hours a day with a high reliability internet connection. There's a big spike up in ticket price visible on the all time chart here https://dcrstats.com/ around early 2017 followed by a slight change in slope upwards which would be my guess as to when the stake pool software was released allowing broader participation.

opmules

newbie

Activity: 6

Merit: 0

Quote from: jwinterm on September 13, 2019, 02:31:12 PM

Ok. So the devs started staking the premine from that block, which was well in advance of the introduction of stake pool software, correct?

This is totally inaccurate. The stake pool software is not required to vote or stake. It's a third party service which allows users to leave their wallet offline and have a third party relay their vote for them when a ticket gets chosen. Everybody could vote and stake from the beginning, only by running an online wallet. Which was available before block 1 even existed. I know for a fact because I'm not a dev and I did it pretty easily...

jwinterm

legendary

Activity: 3178

Merit: 1119

Quote from: EmilioMann on September 13, 2019, 01:54:53 PM

Quote from: jwinterm on September 13, 2019, 01:46:09 PM

...

I thought the devs started staking from day one, and there wasn't any stake pool software available for quite some time, and they were staking the premine, so they basically collected all staking rewards for the first six or twelve months. I didn't mean literally compound, just that the premine was 10% and they staked it, partially during a time when very few others and no one with as large a bag was, resulting in it now being significantly more than 10% of the total supply. They don't show that in the pie chart breakdown, but I think the premine effectively extends into a not insignificant portion of the staking rewards pie slice.

The POS started from a specific block. All have been notified about the block number since day 1.
This is easily verified in blockexplorer. The tickets are all registered there.

Ok. So the devs started staking the premine from that block, which was well in advance of the introduction of stake pool software, correct?

Look, I'm not trying to say Decred is a scam, please don't lump me in with gembitz. I'm just saying that a governance system that allows very large holders to push changes through maybe isn't the best way. Maybe it would take the devs, placeholder, bittrex, Poloniex, and Coinbase custody to push something thru, not just devs and placeholder, but there is some small set that exists today, whether it's two or ten entities. If Bitcoin used this system then Barry Silbert would have activated segwit2x in like thirty seconds, and I'm not sure that's a good thing. Apparently the market as a whole is skeptical as well that Decred is "bitcoin upgraded" considering it's price versus BTC has dropped by over 50% in the last six months.

Again, please don't lump me in with gembitz. It's basically the worst thing you could do to someone Tongue

But if you give me free coins of course I reserve the right to come here and talk shit about them.

EmilioMann

legendary

Activity: 2184

Merit: 1028

#mitandopelomundo

Quote from: jwinterm on September 13, 2019, 01:46:09 PM

...

I thought the devs started staking from day one, and there wasn't any stake pool software available for quite some time, and they were staking the premine, so they basically collected all staking rewards for the first six or twelve months. I didn't mean literally compound, just that the premine was 10% and they staked it, partially during a time when very few others and no one with as large a bag was, resulting in it now being significantly more than 10% of the total supply. They don't show that in the pie chart breakdown, but I think the premine effectively extends into a not insignificant portion of the staking rewards pie slice.

The POS started from a specific block. All have been notified about the block number since day 1.
This is easily verified in blockexplorer. The tickets are all registered there.

gembitz

hero member

Activity: 1848

Merit: 640

*Brute force will solve any Bitcoin problem*

Quote from: jwinterm on September 13, 2019, 03:58:32 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 13, 2019, 12:27:09 AM

Quote from: jwinterm on September 12, 2019, 08:26:18 AM

Quote from: EmilioMann on September 12, 2019, 05:49:01 AM

...
In case of a hard fork voting, the decred code does not allow the existence of 2 blockchains. The "defeated" blockchain "dies".
Hard fork happens automatically and takes everyone in the same direction.
It is impossible for a group to continue on the old blockchain and keep it alive.
It's impossible to happen at Decred what happened to ETH and BTC.
The devs took great care in developing this.
It is one of the main differentials of decred.

This is misleading, imo. If there's a contentious hardfork, the losing party can modify the codebase to allow their chain to continue. They're going to hardfork anyway. There's no magic protection against people making a one off or permanent change to the rules of the system to allow their form to live.

That's my point. There's nothing that can stop a determined minority from splitting away from the main chain. But with Decred, it might be the true community majority made up of small HODLERS who delegate their votes to pools.

With Decred it could be the devs and placeholder capital forcing through any change they want, and the more Decred poor 99.999% forking off as well.

the preposterous PREMINE is held tightly by a handful of dev-insiders and bittrex exchange cartel...there is no community :-D pfft

Quote from: EmilioMann on September 13, 2019, 01:49:12 PM

LOL the fudders decided to make a coordinated attack.
As has been said a thousand times before, but gembitz e jwinterm ignore, the premine was distributed via airdrop to the community and the other half was not for "the developers" but for the "development fund", which is also used to pay marketing, designers, events, etc.

About the vote, you must also have more than 60% of your total votes for your proposal to be validated.
You may have the most votes "yes", but if many of the other people clicked "no" on your proposal, you will need more votes to reach 60% of the total (yes+no).

you cannot perpetuate this premine fraud (see fake airdrop) without being noticed by officials from the S.E.C.
===>" dev fund" = lambos, hookers & cocaine!!>_>sure hope they take action whoop ass to put an end to your shenanigans

~ fuck off chump !!

EmilioMann

legendary

Activity: 2184

Merit: 1028

#mitandopelomundo

LOL the fudders decided to make a coordinated attack.
As has been said a thousand times before, but gembitz e jwinterm ignore, the premine was distributed via airdrop to the community and the other half was not for "the developers" but for the "development fund", which is also used to pay marketing, designers, events, etc.

About the vote, you must also have more than 60% of your total votes for your proposal to be validated.
You may have the most votes "yes", but if many of the other people clicked "no" on your proposal, you will need more votes to reach 60% of the total (yes+no).

jwinterm

legendary

Activity: 3178

Merit: 1119

Quote from: opmules on September 13, 2019, 01:13:37 PM

Quote from: jwinterm on September 13, 2019, 12:17:21 PM

I don't know about bittrex, but with the premine compounded by staking and from what I understand placeholder made a very large investment (now compounded by staking), I'd guess they would be close to being able to push votes through. I'm not saying the system is broken, I'm just not sure this is the best way to do governance on chain (if there is a best way).

That's not how it works... you can't compound by staking with Decred because only 30% goes to POS, (60% goes to POW) So everyone who had tickets since launch, today has less tickets. Unless they are continuously investing new money (either buying more Decred on the market, or running a sizeable mining operation). Personally, I'm down to ~13% of my initial stake.

It is by design and big investors face the same issue.

I thought the devs started staking from day one, and there wasn't any stake pool software available for quite some time, and they were staking the premine, so they basically collected all staking rewards for the first six or twelve months. I didn't mean literally compound, just that the premine was 10% and they staked it, partially during a time when very few others and no one with as large a bag was, resulting in it now being significantly more than 10% of the total supply. They don't show that in the pie chart breakdown, but I think the premine effectively extends into a not insignificant portion of the staking rewards pie slice.

opmules

newbie

Activity: 6

Merit: 0

Quote from: jwinterm on September 13, 2019, 12:17:21 PM

I don't know about bittrex, but with the premine compounded by staking and from what I understand placeholder made a very large investment (now compounded by staking), I'd guess they would be close to being able to push votes through. I'm not saying the system is broken, I'm just not sure this is the best way to do governance on chain (if there is a best way).

That's not how it works... you can't compound by staking with Decred because only 30% goes to POS, (60% goes to POW) So everyone who had tickets since launch, today has less tickets. Unless they are continuously investing new money (either buying more Decred on the market, or running a sizeable mining operation). Personally, I'm down to ~13% of my initial stake.

It is by design and big investors face the same issue.

Topic: [ANN][DCR] Decred - Community Governance | Bitcoin Devs | Lightning Network - page 17. (Read 1201933 times)