Topic: [ANN][ICO] «Envion» Most Profitable Self-Expanding Crypto Infrastructure - page 193. (Read 125671 times)

Its impossible to get some proper returns for thousends of token holders worth millions with thier 1 or 2 conteiners they got. Well in fact 1 working. Will takes forever to see that 161% they will need a lot of working cointeiners.

Hey Rob,

to your questions:

1) When you acquired EVN Tokens, you have to hold them in your MEW or MetaMask Wallet. The smart contract of Envion knows how much EVN Tokens the wallet is holding. Based on this you receive dividends, which are paid in ETH

2) Once mining has started you can expect payouts starting around end of Jan'18 on a weekly basis. The proposed ROI of 161% is calculated annually meaning one year after payouts starting you should have in sum a ROI of 161%+

Cheers

Has anyone discussed the economics of what these guys are proposing?

In general, a hallmark sign of noobs being played is when you get these outrageous proposals for ROI that your average person buying an ICO token would have no clue how to interpret because they lack sufficient technical and economic background to understand what's going on.

In a perfectly competitive environment there will be zero profits. That means you put in 100% you get back 100% due to a perfectly competitive environment. That doesn't mean nobody makes money. It just means at the end of the day the aggregate profits and losses in the market add up to zero. Given that Envion is competing based on energy costs, there advantages are slim due to the high number of entities using energy arbitrage as an advantage. In order to truly gain an advantage you would need to develop the next ASIC or the next node for a graphics card, both of which are insanely difficult and costly and also highly competitive.

In a low or negative interest rate type of environment, such as where your funding comes from an ICO at little to no risk from the founding party the competitive environment could be a "negative" surplus environment where everyone puts in 100% and on average everyone gets back less than 100% due to excessive competition. For example, if the market supports $0 profit in a perfectly competitive environment with 10 players you might invest $1000 and get $1000 back. But if even one more entrant enters the market then you suddenly have 11 players competing for $10,000. Unless the market grows to $11,000 then your average return per player becomes $909. Many markets suffer from this deflationary expectation and with crypto you generally don't have this problem, but over the short term, should too much competition enter the market with too much funding/easy money supporting it you could see a very problematic situation, aka a mining bubble (not a crypto asset bubble).

In order for mining to increase in profitability you need increasing levels of transaction volume. So if volumes stay at X but miner hash rate goes from Y to 2Y the difficulty level will increase and returns will go from Z to Z/2, i.e. half. You can see for example how Antminer D3s (and their competitors from Inno and Pinidea) significantly distorted the market from around July 2017 to now by exponentially increasing the hash rate in a way that far exceeded the growth in transaction volume. Miner profitability is dependent on a high rate of transaction volume growth.

Envion cannot control transaction volume growth. There are NO GUARANTEED returns in mining. They can take your money, build MMUs and if their competition is simultaneously increasing network hash rate in a similar manner mining the same coins while transaction volume stays flat or declines then profitability will stay flat or decline.

In a worst case scenario, which we have seen before, mining collapses entirely as you get a combination of 1) rapidly falling prices 2) rapidly declining transaction volume 3) rapidly declining mining profitability.

We have seen very significant and sudden price declines in the past year due to liquidity issues and if such a decline were to be sustained you could see serious problems with the Envion model.

Just think about it. Russian players want to invest $100 M in mining. Japanese players are probably investing closer to $500 M in mining and mining hardware.

This project is up against a lot of competition. Unless someone has done the calculations showing probabilities of these various outcomes and scenarios I think generally speaking, investing in an ICO for mining is much higher risk than say, buying cloud mining or investing in a few machines and throwing them into a colo data center or your basement where you can start generating a return IMMEDIATELY.

Time is critical when mining. You shouldn't bet on something that doesn't exist yet because as we've found out from the past (google KNC miner, CoinTerra, Butterfly Labs) if you're not putting your money to work right now, the risks change in crypto so fast that by the time your money is going to work, it could be worth a lot less than when you had originally invested in it simply due to changes in market conditions that you failed to anticipate.

I have no problems with concepts like this but I think they're much higher risk than what most people understand due to the extremely high capital intensive investment required and the time, labor, and transactional (i.e. hiring/HR/admin/licensing, environmental, permitting) cost needed to develop that capital. There are serious supply chain (logistics) hurdles that I haven't even discussed, but I can assure you that if you are missing even a power cord, ethernet cable, PDU, PSU, circuit breaker, etc. then you can't do anything with the rest of the your equipment or you suffer losses or diminished returns while waiting for whatever you need.

From what Laurent was saying I dont think so they going to release anything, and when I asked about it, and said they promised it and tried to push my argument he banned me, so I guess its just build a hype as much as you can keep sheeple until near ico then dont release anything cuz u got nothing, sheeple will send ETH/BTC anyway.

The date is coming closer and I have this thrill! I can't wait for the sale to start - it feels like an endless time since I first pressed on the link to this topic and read the Whitepaper... My excitement is real and tomorrow we gonna see how long the token supply will last. My bet is 4 blocks. There is too much going on around the project. The Alexa ranking is going to higher levels and there are over 120k people whitelisted.

Could be one of the quickest ICOs. I am really hyped.  Lets hope the best for tomorrow. 

Has anyone discussed the economics of what these guys are proposing?

In general, a hallmark sign of noobs being played is when you get these outrageous proposals for ROI that your average person buying an ICO token would have no clue how to interpret because they lack sufficient technical and economic background to understand what's going on.

In a perfectly competitive environment there will be zero profits. That means you put in 100% you get back 100% due to a perfectly competitive environment. That doesn't mean nobody makes money. It just means at the end of the day the aggregate profits and losses in the market add up to zero. Given that Envion is competing based on energy costs, there advantages are slim due to the high number of entities using energy arbitrage as an advantage. In order to truly gain an advantage you would need to develop the next ASIC or the next node for a graphics card, both of which are insanely difficult and costly and also highly competitive.

In a low or negative interest rate type of environment, such as where your funding comes from an ICO at little to no risk from the founding party the competitive environment could be a "negative" surplus environment where everyone puts in 100% and on average everyone gets back less than 100% due to excessive competition. For example, if the market supports $0 profit in a perfectly competitive environment with 10 players you might invest $1000 and get $1000 back. But if even one more entrant enters the market then you suddenly have 11 players competing for $10,000. Unless the market grows to $11,000 then your average return per player becomes $909. Many markets suffer from this deflationary expectation and with crypto you generally don't have this problem, but over the short term, should too much competition enter the market with too much funding/easy money supporting it you could see a very problematic situation, aka a mining bubble (not a crypto asset bubble).

In order for mining to increase in profitability you need increasing levels of transaction volume. So if volumes stay at X but miner hash rate goes from Y to 2Y the difficulty level will increase and returns will go from Z to Z/2, i.e. half. You can see for example how Antminer D3s (and their competitors from Inno and Pinidea) significantly distorted the market from around July 2017 to now by exponentially increasing the hash rate in a way that far exceeded the growth in transaction volume. Miner profitability is dependent on a high rate of transaction volume growth.

Envion cannot control transaction volume growth. There are NO GUARANTEED returns in mining. They can take your money, build MMUs and if their competition is simultaneously increasing network hash rate in a similar manner mining the same coins while transaction volume stays flat or declines then profitability will stay flat or decline.

In a worst case scenario, which we have seen before, mining collapses entirely as you get a combination of 1) rapidly falling prices 2) rapidly declining transaction volume 3) rapidly declining mining profitability.

We have seen very significant and sudden price declines in the past year due to liquidity issues and if such a decline were to be sustained you could see serious problems with the Envion model.

Just think about it. Russian players want to invest $100 M in mining. Japanese players are probably investing closer to $500 M in mining and mining hardware.

This project is up against a lot of competition. Unless someone has done the calculations showing probabilities of these various outcomes and scenarios I think generally speaking, investing in an ICO for mining is much higher risk than say, buying cloud mining or investing in a few machines and throwing them into a colo data center or your basement where you can start generating a return IMMEDIATELY.

Time is critical when mining. You shouldn't bet on something that doesn't exist yet because as we've found out from the past (google KNC miner, CoinTerra, Butterfly Labs) if you're not putting your money to work right now, the risks change in crypto so fast that by the time your money is going to work, it could be worth a lot less than when you had originally invested in it simply due to changes in market conditions that you failed to anticipate.

I have no problems with concepts like this but I think they're much higher risk than what most people understand due to the extremely high capital intensive investment required and the time, labor, and transactional (i.e. hiring/HR/admin/licensing, environmental, permitting) cost needed to develop that capital. There are serious supply chain (logistics) hurdles that I haven't even discussed, but I can assure you that if you are missing even a power cord, ethernet cable, PDU, PSU, circuit breaker, etc. then you can't do anything with the rest of the your equipment or you suffer losses or diminished returns while waiting for whatever you need.