Topic: [ANN][ICO] «Envion» Most Profitable Self-Expanding Crypto Infrastructure - page 194. (Read 125671 times)

Has anyone discussed the economics of what these guys are proposing?

In general, a hallmark sign of noobs being played is when you get these outrageous proposals for ROI that your average person buying an ICO token would have no clue how to interpret because they lack sufficient technical and economic background to understand what's going on.

In a perfectly competitive environment there will be zero profits. That means you put in 100% you get back 100% due to a perfectly competitive environment. That doesn't mean nobody makes money. It just means at the end of the day the aggregate profits and losses in the market add up to zero. Given that Envion is competing based on energy costs, there advantages are slim due to the high number of entities using energy arbitrage as an advantage. In order to truly gain an advantage you would need to develop the next ASIC or the next node for a graphics card, both of which are insanely difficult and costly and also highly competitive.

In a low or negative interest rate type of environment, such as where your funding comes from an ICO at little to no risk from the founding party the competitive environment could be a "negative" surplus environment where everyone puts in 100% and on average everyone gets back less than 100% due to excessive competition. For example, if the market supports $0 profit in a perfectly competitive environment with 10 players you might invest $1000 and get $1000 back. But if even one more entrant enters the market then you suddenly have 11 players competing for $10,000. Unless the market grows to $11,000 then your average return per player becomes $909. Many markets suffer from this deflationary expectation and with crypto you generally don't have this problem, but over the short term, should too much competition enter the market with too much funding/easy money supporting it you could see a very problematic situation, aka a mining bubble (not a crypto asset bubble).

In order for mining to increase in profitability you need increasing levels of transaction volume. So if volumes stay at X but miner hash rate goes from Y to 2Y the difficulty level will increase and returns will go from Z to Z/2, i.e. half. You can see for example how Antminer D3s (and their competitors from Inno and Pinidea) significantly distorted the market from around July 2017 to now by exponentially increasing the hash rate in a way that far exceeded the growth in transaction volume. Miner profitability is dependent on a high rate of transaction volume growth.

Envion cannot control transaction volume growth. There are NO GUARANTEED returns in mining. They can take your money, build MMUs and if their competition is simultaneously increasing network hash rate in a similar manner mining the same coins while transaction volume stays flat or declines then profitability will stay flat or decline.

In a worst case scenario, which we have seen before, mining collapses entirely as you get a combination of 1) rapidly falling prices 2) rapidly declining transaction volume 3) rapidly declining mining profitability.

We have seen very significant and sudden price declines in the past year due to liquidity issues and if such a decline were to be sustained you could see serious problems with the Envion model.

Just think about it. Russian players want to invest $100 M in mining. Japanese players are probably investing closer to $500 M in mining and mining hardware.

This project is up against a lot of competition. Unless someone has done the calculations showing probabilities of these various outcomes and scenarios I think generally speaking, investing in an ICO for mining is much higher risk than say, buying cloud mining or investing in a few machines and throwing them into a colo data center or your basement where you can start generating a return IMMEDIATELY.

Time is critical when mining. You shouldn't bet on something that doesn't exist yet because as we've found out from the past (google KNC miner, CoinTerra, Butterfly Labs) if you're not putting your money to work right now, the risks change in crypto so fast that by the time your money is going to work, it could be worth a lot less than when you had originally invested in it simply due to changes in market conditions that you failed to anticipate.

I have no problems with concepts like this but I think they're much higher risk than what most people understand due to the extremely high capital intensive investment required and the time, labor, and transactional (i.e. hiring/HR/admin/licensing, environmental, permitting) cost needed to develop that capital. There are serious supply chain (logistics) hurdles that I haven't even discussed, but I can assure you that if you are missing even a power cord, ethernet cable, PDU, PSU, circuit breaker, etc. then you can't do anything with the rest of the your equipment or you suffer losses or diminished returns while waiting for whatever you need.

I was considering investing in envion tomorrow, but the 161% ROI got me thinking, how can they guarantee that to every investor.. it does sound a bit dodgy...

I was going to invest using credit card, as I dont have any btc or eth laying around, but now I might just skip it all together.

Their Video needs more Marketing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2eBLJayRas



Everyone who invest will not get their Return XD

Good Luck in maintaining the containers placed everywhere were energy is cheap and driving there to fix hardware problems XD

I am also thrilled. Got my ETH just by now. Hopefully it won't drop that bad this night so I can wake up calmly besides the big excitement of today (already!)
I am still not sure if everything works out with the sign-up mails. Because we can't do anything until we received them, right?

Just sign-up on envion.org/en/ico , receive a confirmation mail and wait for further instructions.
That's it. You can't do more.

Join telegram channel as well, because announcements show up immediately:
https://t.me/Envion

Announcement Channel:
https://t.me/ENVION_Ann

Let the Ethereum network die on tomorrow's ICO.

The date is coming closer and I have this thrill! I can't wait for the sale to start - it feels like an endless time since I first pressed on the link to this topic and read the Whitepaper... My excitement is real and tomorrow we gonna see how long the token supply will last. My bet is 4 blocks. There is too much going on around the project. The Alexa ranking is going to higher levels and there are over 120k people whitelisted.

Could be one of the quickest ICOs. I am really hyped.  Lets hope the best for tomorrow. 

@Envion can you please state the Credit card fee if I want to invest more than 10.000 €?

It's really a good concept. I will invest. <3

How can i create an account with envion.?

Less than 24 hours left for envion ico start.

I really have some big hopes for it. Their hard cap is very high but community always gives good projects what they deserve.

Tomorrow eth network can have some problems again Too many people waiting for envion to send some eth.

It's regretful that we have to ban anyone from the Telegram channel, but we have a responsibility to our 12,000 members to encourage productive and respectful discussion.  Every member has the opportunity to ask questions and get answers.  It is our responsibility to communicate accurate information about envion to those who are interested.  It's possible that you may not find satisfaction in our answers.  The polite response to that situation is to move on to another topic or leave the group.  

Repeating the same question and ignoring requests by admins and other members to stop cluttering the group and trolling is not an acceptable response and one that leads to sanctions.  Your questions will never get you banned, a bad attitude is certain to get you banned.

Envion does not reveal its suppliers or pricing information.  Period.  This information falls under the trade secrets category for any and every business and revealing it not only jeopardizes the relationship with suppliers, but it also reveals information that could give competitors an advantage.  It is no coincidence that the people most dissatisfied with our refusal to provide this information are in fact competitors.  

@Saschaman is a competitor.  He knows that given the small number of hardware suppliers, it's very easy to determine where hardware is coming from—even if information on the deals is heavily redacted.  Saschaman admitted so much on Telegram—simultaneously saying we should just black out certain information, but also saying that it would be easy to determine what sources are.

Envion considers this type of questioning to be an adversarial attack by a competitor.  

We are confident that our investors understand that banning competitors for rudely demanding trade secrets is done as a protection for their investment.  

I would also like to get some more information from Envion about this topic. Before the ICO, hopefully, so we can all make informed decisions on whether and how much to invest.

I love the idea of it, but I think the hype is just way above the actual technological development.
Look at the dot-com bubble. People were so excited about it and were making tons of money. But the technical aspect was way behind and it took a good 10 years for the price to come back to where it was during the hype.
I see a lot of similarities with ico's, but hardly any adoption. The hype around the ideas is great but the actual use of it is absent.
With that being said, I sure believe you can make some money with this ico, but I highly doubt that they'll be able to implement their idea how they planned it out.

This is bad. They want you to invest in their ICO but ban you when you ask genuine serious questions 
Sounds fishy

From what Laurent was saying I dont think so they going to release anything, and when I asked about it, and said they promised it and tried to push my argument he banned me, so I guess its just build a hype as much as you can keep sheeple until near ico then dont release anything cuz u got nothing, sheeple will send ETH/BTC anyway.

This the first critic here, which has fundamental roots. Would love to hear some feedback from Envion. But finally I guess it‘s worth giving these guys a try. If you spend only a part of your ressources, the chance overweights the risk in my opinion. And honestly, I can also live with 50 or 100 percent ROI / year.

Envion project. Is it related with the environment? Waiting for more updates soon. By the way, please re-fix some pictures in your announcement. Thanks.

Envion that's great. I like the concept of this coin. It looks very interesting. I believe it's going to keep pace with the times.