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Topic: [ANNOUNCE] Bitmessage - P2P Messaging system based partially on Bitcoin - page 9. (Read 89882 times)

legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
How is the bitcoineater address centralized?    http://blockexplorer.com/address/1BitcoinEaterAddressDontSendf59kuE

Centralized as in someone has to make a decision on where that money should be donated to, and everyone else is forced to follow their decision.
Nobody has the privkey for that address Smiley  Sending to that address means destroying the coins.

Are you going to force me to send to that address? What if I what to send my donation to some other address?
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1020
What about replacing proof of work by small bitcoin donations to predetermined addresses? This should be possible by using micropayment channels.

Potential donation addresses: atheros, bitcoin100, bitcoineater

Too centralized, and would greatly stifle adoption. People expect electronic message systems to be free, and not many would be willing to both have to pay per e-mail, and actually be able to obtain bitcoin in whatever hellhole part of the world they may be in where they would actually need Bitmessage.
How is the bitcoineater address centralized?    http://blockexplorer.com/address/1BitcoinEaterAddressDontSendf59kuE

Centralized as in someone has to make a decision on where that money should be donated to, and everyone else is forced to follow their decision.
Nobody has the privkey for that address Smiley  Sending to that address means destroying the coins.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
What about replacing proof of work by small bitcoin donations to predetermined addresses? This should be possible by using micropayment channels.

Potential donation addresses: atheros, bitcoin100, bitcoineater

Too centralized, and would greatly stifle adoption. People expect electronic message systems to be free, and not many would be willing to both have to pay per e-mail, and actually be able to obtain bitcoin in whatever hellhole part of the world they may be in where they would actually need Bitmessage.
How is the bitcoineater address centralized?    http://blockexplorer.com/address/1BitcoinEaterAddressDontSendf59kuE

Centralized as in someone has to make a decision on where that money should be donated to, and everyone else is forced to follow their decision.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
So this still RSA and not ECC right? Any plans for switching?

AFAIK it has been ECC since the first major re-write ... i.e. a long time ago.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1000
0xFB0D8D1534241423
What about this hattrick?
http://www.chronicles.no/2013/08/bitmessage-crackdown.html
Not that i endorse actions like that, but it shows how flawed the system is.

Uh.

Quote
Everyone on Bitmessage has received a message on the following format:
False. I did not receive this message even though (at least) one of my addresses is public.

Quote
To avoid traps like these it is a very good rule to never open links received from people you don't know
Which is why links aren't even clickable!



FUD. There is no "flaw." There was no "hattrick." Scaling is planned. Your pubkeys are not private, only divorced from your identity. "Passive mode" has been proposed as an alternative to this. Rob White should have taken his skills and been useful, rather than launch this worthless attack on an openly in-development software.
legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1003
What about this hattrick?
http://www.chronicles.no/2013/08/bitmessage-crackdown.html
Not that i endorse actions like that, but it shows how flawed the system is.
legendary
Activity: 1498
Merit: 1000
So this still RSA and not ECC right? Any plans for switching?
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500

But that would bloat the Namecoin blockchain.

The Namecoin blockchain is much smaller than the Bitcoin blockchain and this fees wouldn't be smaller than the actual fees for id/ and d/ systems so it wouldn't spam more than any other transaction.
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
Three major challenges here:

1) broadcasting of the transaction would in many cases be just as resource intensive as sending your original message in the first place.  
2) even if you got the money back there would still be fees
3) Creating dust ultimately means you will be spending these outputs (and paying higher fees) along with some of your other addresses and thus compromise your identity.

I spent a long time trying to find a way to make the system 'for-pay' and not just 'burn' CPU cycles... but then I realized something critical:

1) everyone needs to propagate other peoples messages to hide their own.  Therefore, everyone is already doing an even bandwidth barter to simply forward the messages along. Statistical analysis can detect leaches and cut them off.
2) the proof of work should not be required as long as the bandwidth is below a fixed limit.   Just like bitcoin limits block production, bitmessage can limit bandwidth consumption on any given channel/stream.   With a fixed bandwidth stream and the ability to spawn new streams as necessary to balance load, the proof of work should only become a factor in times of congestion or when there is a need to compete with spam.   Of course, spam is just as good as real traffic for hiding in the crowd and as long as the channel/stream you are listening on is within spec for bandwidth usage, there is really no problem what-so-ever.
They are two issues:
- privacy
- anonymity
Privacy can be achieved on the communication level with encryption and identity system(for ex. Namecoin).
Anonymity you can never achieve 100% and therefore all the time will be messages that Bitmessage was knacked and that will scare people to use it.
It is better to state from the beginning that total anonymity it is not the purpose of the project just a light obfuscation of the pseudonymous identities. It can be created a better connectivity to the Tor network or bundled editions with Tor offered. Then not Bitmessage will be blamed when identities are revealed.
A global attacker which can control great part of the internet can anyway reveal connections between identities with statistical analysis.
You can delay this with more routing traffic and delaying message delivery on the cost of the usability but you will never eliminate this attack possibility even if everybody will receive every message.
A balance is needed between usability and anonymity. Must users are complaining not about the insufficient anonymity but about the slow speed.
Who needs more anonymity can change his BM identities more often and can use Tor to hide a connection between his real identity and BM identity.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1020
What about replacing proof of work by small bitcoin donations to predetermined addresses? This should be possible by using micropayment channels.

Potential donation addresses: atheros, bitcoin100, bitcoineater

Too centralized, and would greatly stifle adoption. People expect electronic message systems to be free, and not many would be willing to both have to pay per e-mail, and actually be able to obtain bitcoin in whatever hellhole part of the world they may be in where they would actually need Bitmessage.
Both arguments are valid and beside of this the bitcoin chain is to overloaded for this purpose.
What about destroying small Namecoin fees ( for ex 0.005 NMC/10 message) or just blocking a small amount of NMC (for ex 0.005 NMC/message) for 1/2 year which would be received back to the same address after that time ?
But that would bloat the Namecoin blockchain.

Three major challenges here:

1) broadcasting of the transaction would in many cases be just as resource intensive as sending your original message in the first place. 
Not at all with micropayment channels: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/announce-micro-payment-channels-implementation-now-in-bitcoinj-244656

Quote
2) even if you got the money back there would still be fees
No fees with micropayment channels besides the initial fee.

Quote
3) Creating dust ultimately means you will be spending these outputs (and paying higher fees) along with some of your other addresses and thus compromise your identity.
If you don't lock the fee but donate or destroy there is no spending thus no compromising.

Quote
I spent a long time trying to find a way to make the system 'for-pay' and not just 'burn' CPU cycles... but then I realized something critical:

1) everyone needs to propagate other peoples messages to hide their own.  Therefore, everyone is already doing an even bandwidth barter to simply forward the messages along. Statistical analysis can detect leaches and cut them off.
2) the proof of work should not be required as long as the bandwidth is below a fixed limit.   Just like bitcoin limits block production, bitmessage can limit bandwidth consumption on any given channel/stream.   With a fixed bandwidth stream and the ability to spawn new streams as necessary to balance load, the proof of work should only become a factor in times of congestion or when there is a need to compete with spam.   Of course, spam is just as good as real traffic for hiding in the crowd and as long as the channel/stream you are listening on is within spec for bandwidth usage, there is really no problem what-so-ever.
I thought the whole point was blocking spam...
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 566
fractally
Three major challenges here:

1) broadcasting of the transaction would in many cases be just as resource intensive as sending your original message in the first place. 
2) even if you got the money back there would still be fees
3) Creating dust ultimately means you will be spending these outputs (and paying higher fees) along with some of your other addresses and thus compromise your identity.

I spent a long time trying to find a way to make the system 'for-pay' and not just 'burn' CPU cycles... but then I realized something critical:

1) everyone needs to propagate other peoples messages to hide their own.  Therefore, everyone is already doing an even bandwidth barter to simply forward the messages along. Statistical analysis can detect leaches and cut them off.
2) the proof of work should not be required as long as the bandwidth is below a fixed limit.   Just like bitcoin limits block production, bitmessage can limit bandwidth consumption on any given channel/stream.   With a fixed bandwidth stream and the ability to spawn new streams as necessary to balance load, the proof of work should only become a factor in times of congestion or when there is a need to compete with spam.   Of course, spam is just as good as real traffic for hiding in the crowd and as long as the channel/stream you are listening on is within spec for bandwidth usage, there is really no problem what-so-ever.

hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
What about replacing proof of work by small bitcoin donations to predetermined addresses? This should be possible by using micropayment channels.

Potential donation addresses: atheros, bitcoin100, bitcoineater

Too centralized, and would greatly stifle adoption. People expect electronic message systems to be free, and not many would be willing to both have to pay per e-mail, and actually be able to obtain bitcoin in whatever hellhole part of the world they may be in where they would actually need Bitmessage.
Both arguments are valid and beside of this the bitcoin chain is to overloaded for this purpose.
What about destroying small Namecoin fees ( for ex 0.005 NMC/10 message) or just blocking a small amount of NMC (for ex 0.005 NMC/message) for 1/2 year which would be received back to the same address after that time ?
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1020
What about replacing proof of work by small bitcoin donations to predetermined addresses? This should be possible by using micropayment channels.

Potential donation addresses: atheros, bitcoin100, bitcoineater

Too centralized, and would greatly stifle adoption. People expect electronic message systems to be free, and not many would be willing to both have to pay per e-mail, and actually be able to obtain bitcoin in whatever hellhole part of the world they may be in where they would actually need Bitmessage.
How is the bitcoineater address centralized?    http://blockexplorer.com/address/1BitcoinEaterAddressDontSendf59kuE

Waiting a couple of minutes for every mail is not the best solution either. Also it will not work so well on mobiles.

Maybe as a choice.

legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
What about replacing proof of work by small bitcoin donations to predetermined addresses? This should be possible by using micropayment channels.

Potential donation addresses: atheros, bitcoin100, bitcoineater

Too centralized, and would greatly stifle adoption. People expect electronic message systems to be free, and not many would be willing to both have to pay per e-mail, and actually be able to obtain bitcoin in whatever hellhole part of the world they may be in where they would actually need Bitmessage.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1020
What about replacing proof of work by small bitcoin donations to predetermined addresses? This should be possible by using micropayment channels.

Potential donation addresses: atheros, bitcoin100, bitcoineater

edit: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/announce-micro-payment-channels-implementation-now-in-bitcoinj-244656 Micropayment channels
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
Quote

The namecoin integration with bitmessage can fix this ... since you can change-up your BM-xxx address in the namecoin blockchain as much as you like (even automate it if you like) whilst you remain contactable at "id/name" ... as long as you control the namecoin keys for "id/name" your correspondents will know they are connecting with you (you'll need to initiate by transferring the "id/name" knowledge in some other out-of-band method like PGP signed mail, fingerprint exchange, etc as OTR does).

This fix should provide some measure of forward secrecy, although you will need to be careful then about how you use namecoin to register/update that "id/name" on the namecoin network ... but all that is then the identical modus operandi for using the bitcoin network in way to avoid privacy leaks ...
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
Damn dont click shit

The client should disable links
Just use Tor and/or a VPN.
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 1060
Everyone click here

http://secupost.net/1449564211/bitmessage-security

And give my ip plausible deniability
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 1060
Hence the unique number and 500

Damn dont click shit

The client should disable links
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035

Based on discussions about this on Bitmessage groups, we believe this was a wa for the original poster of this message to collect Bitmessage user's IP numbers.
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