Topic: Antminer L3 - 250mh - 400watt Scrypt miner coming soon - page 45. (Read 137455 times)

Thanks for the heads up!!!

Thanx for info

ColoHub is located in Iowa. They are offering hosting right now at $55 per KW per month.

This is where I have my farm, and lucky for me its 2 miles from my house.

Here is their Miner Hosting/Data Center Thread:

 https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.17132668

Guys, while a datacentre full of mining equipment will draw a lot of power, it's nothing compared to an Aluminum smelter, Steel Mill, Iron Foundry etc.
Even a large manufacturing plant such as a car plant would likely draw more and there are plenty of those in China.

Generation cost varies across regions but if you do your homework you'll find that the raw cost of electricity generation in China is around the mythical 3c per kilowatt (it varies per region, per technology: gas, coal, hydro, nuclear).

The market rate after the government subsidy of 0.42 Yuan/kWh seems to be about 0.66 Yuan/kWh (10c) but there are big discounts for larger users and direct purchase schemes for the really big users such as those above. Those very largest industrial consumers in the list above are paying about 4c per Kwh, so I would imagine Bitmain are paying something like around 6 -7c per kwh (in the middle of the range).

If you think how politics influences subsidies, subsidies go to the largest employers so I don't think Bitmain are going to qualify for anything special there.
We'll never know the exact number, but it's not 3c.

Like everyone here, I'm trying to work out how this will play out and good data beats FUD every time.

Searing, dont worry, heres what most likely will happen:

Price of LTC vs BTC will continue to drop, like it has consistently for over a year or so.
People w/ new ASICs will continue to dump .. dropping the price even faster.
Difficulty will rise substantially.
Hopefully diff will rise fast enough that Bitmain never ROI's(because people hopefully stop buying) on their creation of a Scrypt ASIC(all god damn crypto ASIC manufactures should just die already.)
Titans and other old equip will be dumped.
Diff will peak then start to come back down due to LTC price being so low, Im thinking by the time all the above happens probably we be at .002btc
Miners who bought new ASICs relearn the hard lesson again that buying new ASICs at full price(usually only option).... often enough, results in really never ROI'ing

Year or 2 later....

New hardware is announced and the vicious cycle starts again ... oh and theres the reward halving =P

Its quite a stupid race really. The trick is getting in at a very advantageous point and then getting out soon as that advantage is gone.

For me, Titan will probably be the last ASIC I ever own ... then sadly this hobby will be dead for me ... which really fucking sucks =(

With tarky Titan firmware 3rd party for KNC Titans they restart all the time tweaking stuff and/or bringing back a slow die etc. could be the same usefulness on your firmware

Just a quick update.  I have been mining on Nicehash for a few days and the L3 works well on Nicehash.  No problems.  Hashes very close to the rated hash rate. No issues to report.

Only thing I have noticed with the L3's is that every once in a while one of them will restart.  Has not happened but once or twice.  No issues, restarted normally, and is working fine.  So I don't know the reason for the restart.  But thought I would mention it.  

So far the L3 works like it should.  Very happy with them so far.  

Well ya missed one. Looks like the inside of a tom cruse MI movie 😲

Also Dec 24th to Jan 24th a 32% difficulty jump in ltc hashrate FML

1874gh to 2758gh

 It's not that they'd stop making them when ROI hits the 3c/kwh electric level - it's that folks stop buying them when they can't make any money on them.

 And since when does Iowa have data halls? The main reason I moved OUT of Iowa was the expensive(ish) electric.

I've stated below on other threads my 'guess' on all this. I also incorporated others who state bitmain has habit of dumping equipment into the world till about a 3c per kwh return on ROI
MAYBE possible...then new equipment is rotated in at their data halls and out to the public (end of line) then it is rinse/wash/repeat.

The real problem in all this FUD just going thru my mind (KNC Titans soon to get their evil wish of the blessed release of doorstops..they've been trying for years) anyway
is the LACK of control on my part (others).

IF Bitmain is gonna flood the market with these like toasters and/or down to only say a way of return at the 3c kwh rate...then the 'lack of control' on this is what is really
bugging me....so if that is true out of my hands.

IF the price of LTC does not go up in some manner to more of a 0.005 to 0.006 ltc to btc ratio...well then KNC Titans again 'win' and can become doorstops at this rate
by July 4th 2017 ..more or less....again I lack any control on this

IF they are kicking out L3's like toasters .....do I really want to buy in with every other tom/dick/harry and drive difficulty up ...get an L3 just to find out it has the same
KNC Titan doorstop dream say 4-5 months after the Titans 'retire' to doorstop status....again no control

So I figure it is really about me not being able do do anything to 'feed' my future asic miner addiction that is the problem

So will wait..HOPE for a price pump to add/time etc to my current KNC Titan miners and maybe something better will come along more equip wise in the fall
that makes sense to get (probably no more data halls at that point..couple of units in the basement again)

But the wave of difficulty I see coming on top of Bitmain kicking stuff out (as they have done with asic btc units anyway) like toasters...I can only plow thru the wave with my little asic surfboard dream and hope if I paddle like hell there is some option for a 'home miner surfboard' on the beach on the other side....no way with my knc titans or L3's by soonest march in
hand is that gonna be able to 'surf' that difficulty wave ...

I can't see even 'looking' at an L3  of any flavor.....till this time in that .there is just NO frigging control with the option that bitmain will kick them out like
toasters and take over being main miner of scrypt equip as well as btc equip (likely imho) and that the price will likely also stay flat (at least till my knc titans doorstop
and perhaps the L3's) ..

thus only game to play is duck underwater ..duck the wave...and salute/wave at the knc titans as they float by and sink and swim like hell on the other side of this suspected difficulty wave in scrypt that will wash away many till (fall 2017?) and hope
something as a 'modest' miner comes along I can host for fun in the 2 or 3 unit variety that at least can heat the house and/or stick in a data hall....*unlikely imho*

But man, Bitmain...they are just too damn big..they can pump out asic toasters like crazy for others and their data halls even at these LTC prices and of course price
no frigging idea on price or the ratio of ltc to btc (last I looked 0.00412 ltc to btc) FML

ugly, ugly....it is hard ...damn this asic addiction sucks...but must control lemming like behavior on the L3's and jump off difficulty cliff with everyone else

as an aside ...folk who DID already get an L3 you got a shot long term..but say Bitmain opens page up say in a couple weeks after Chinese new year? .IF so and it is
2 weeks to get to your L3's  at these prices and LTC or other scrypt pow coins stay sideways.....what is that March 1st!....man that is UGLY!

I hate will power and not getting toys..it is so 'un-fair' to my greedy asic toy collecting 'pay for themselves' happy land I've been in for the last year or more

anyway ....how it is flowing now...bitmain will be bitmain (toaster volume out the door) the only real shot is increase in LTC and/or other scrypt coin prices and ratio
to BTC otherwise I'm SOL on this.

(then again I drank the BFL kool aid at one time...so what do I know....it would be nice if the above was just plain wrong)

The mining center of mass is in China - so no surprises here

Well Bitmain has now released a batch of T9's and now a couple of batches of S9's.  NO L3's YET!  Very frustrating.  The rest of the world is falling behind while L3's are mining in mass in China.  Not cool!

May be so....but at 11c kwh electric winter rates and 14c kwh summer rates....I may get another btc or ltc miner someday (as a toy/spaceheater) but unless we see a MASSIVE
PRICE RISE and/or the ratio of LTC (or other scrypt pow I'm not picky) to above 0.006 say LTC to btc I'm out! Alas!

 imho I also think as others have stated on here that
Bitmain will run these miners out in versions of L3,L4.L5 etc like they do their BTC miners...till they hit around a 3c kwh rate or less to make money good for data hall
bitmain runs not so workable for the rest of us......that  bitmain can take over much of scrypt mining seems off to a good start data hall and equipment wise ..I mean really 250mh for
400 watts...gonna be tough for others to jump in imho

just the way these things work it seems....anyway I'm likely out of mass miners in a big way...even data halls are 8c to 10c with rent that I've been able to tell....so unless I move to China
out of luck it seems...of any more then 1 or 2 of anything (eventually)

Then again...I at one time drank the Butterfly Labs Koo-Aid thus ...I hope..really hope...I'm dead wrong on any of the above!



Hope you are correct as well. But if difficulty hits like 200,000 I'm out for sure...even 150,000 would be tough to justify ..I mean really 44 titan cubes to make 11 original
4 cube titans at 3,200mh (with some dies down)....to make what 300 bucks a month in the basement (summer 5) and rest in data hall in Iowa (6 titans)....the 4 in the
basement would be toast...that's for sure at that point

That would be beyond getting borderline silly imho.

But the HOLY GRAIL is IF say BTC was to hit at a floor of 1,250 to 1,500 usd...and the price ratio of ltc to btc and/or other scrypt would creep up to the equivalent of say
6-7 usd....then the hamster wheels in the Titans could continue and the L3 folk could see an ROI at the end of the tunnel too boot.

(Dare to dream, live the dream, dread the fall)

A2/Alcheminers have reached break even at 10c/kw with the last diff spike...you can already see the effect...hashrate peaked at about 2.9 TH and dropped about 300GH since then. I bet you will be sticking around the 100-150k diff for a while as we hover around this equilibrium point of A2 going offline and A4/L3 replacing them.

Keep in mind the current gen hardware only increased efficiency x2...hashrate per machine has stayed around the same.

 No $ figure, but LTC / BTC dropped from 0.0115 around first of OCT 2014 (continuing a LONG fall from a late 2013 peak) to 0.00612 in mid-May 2015 when the price started to spike and hashrate started climbing again - no doubt due to the return of profitability of older gear and in cases of folks in high electric cost areas return of profitability for ANYTHING at all.


 The other thing to keep in mind about the last couple years, is that for much of that timeframe there were NO SHIPMENTS AT ALL of new gear, other than small quantities of the Innosilicon "Farm Boy" units and the fairly small numbers of Alcheminers (and the MAT/etc versions) that were ever shipped. There was no way for hashrate TO increase much with almost no new gear entering the market - and NO new gear at all for almost a year prior to the first shipments of the A4.

 Right now, for the first time in about 2 YEARS, we actually have more than one company making Scrypt ASIC - and Bitmain has a long history of shipping every unit of a miner design it CAN 'till it has a "newer, usually more efficient unit" available, unlike Innosilicon which tended to ship hard for a while then taper off.

 At this point, I am going to be a bit shocked if difficulty doesn't top 200,000 by the end of the year (vs. the under 100,000 right now) - it might hit a slowdown for a bit when the existing A2/Alcheminer/Titan hordes get unprofitable, but even that won't stop it I am far too certain.


 I suspect the current rise won't taper off much 'till the L3 gets fairly close to break-even at 3c/kwh electric, barring a major chip foundry going down again.


 Makes me happy my A2s have already hit ROI - and I'm a bit happy the A4 took as long to actually get shipped after it was announced, that extra 4-6 months of high profitable mining mattered!



 I do disagree that this is the end of home mining - the L3 is the FIRST "comfortable for a home miner" machine to show up in a while, with the DEBATEABLE exception of the R4. 400 watts and fairly quiet is something ANYONE can fairly easily find a spot for - unlike the other mostly rather loud and MUCH higher power consumption miners of the last 3+ years.

Yeah I like your view better

I'd be a 'lot' more in your camp but for the fact we are talking about BITMAIN PRODUCTS which they put out as toasters. Also we had the 'sense' so to speak to stop
chasing the BTC difficulty massive rise back in 2014/15 etc and move to scrypt miners. What keeps me up at night is Bitmain and others in China at 2c electric have
figured out the same (2 years later)..if so I am beyond screwed finally Can't complain ....but just have the above issues...

Again mainly price...if BTC price pumps and LTC/scrypt comes a long just a bit..i MAY still squeak by into winter with my titans heating the house......

but that "unicorn dream' was always pushing my luck on a machine that was developed Fall 2014 and then 1st orig one hit my house Nov 8th 2014

Oh well running on ROI steam now anyway ......frigging rubber band is winding down ...hamsters in the hamster wheel in the titans are getting older now

Titans are 'evil' and have always longed to 'brick themselves' into the bliss of 'doorstops' anyway...at least this way I can kill them instead of them wearing down

(damn they are evil..should probably post a youtube video of me putting a stake thru their asic chip souls as well to be safe when the time comes)

I think it more directly comparable to the scrypt hump that happened round the same time (http://www.coindesk.com/data/litecoin-mining-difficulty-time/ ), and then what happened?
1000's of Gen 1 ASIC and GPU miners quit the game and diff dropped from 58,000 to 40,000 for six months and then slowly climbed again as more and more A2's were sold and Titans were repaired and reverted back to full performance. During that time people who owned those 'new' miners started making money again. Not sure how long it took for early Titan owners to ROI that $10k sticker but I paid down my A2's no problem.

I'm hoping the same thing will happen this time except it will be the 2nd gen A2's and Zeus miners etc that are retired as they become uneconomical for most people to run.

I suspect it's also the end of the road for the home miner even if you have an L3, unless you can get electricity for less than $0.08 USD or thereabouts as the big miners will saturate the market to a level where they can still make a decent profit at $0.04 per Kw/h or whatever they're paying, but it will mean that it will be hard to make any money if you're paying domestic rates for power.

It's a waiting game for now.

don't disagree accept if Bitmain follows the same strategy as it has with BTC miners..they will dump a lot to have us chumps pay for their data halls stuff..and then
difficulty will wane but at a difficulty level un-workable for us..it is how they roll imho or at least what is going on with their BTC miners.....

I just can't see data halls with btc miners much (except them with the T9) when it makes so much more sense to use the bitmain L3's at 400 watts and take over
this crypto as well....its the math vs reward...so imho I see a LOT of former btc china data halls making a move to scrypt miners instead with bitmain and then of
course how many bitmain needs for such as in its own data centers..and of course how many they plan on the home miner route to help fund above.

(curently climbing cell tower....figure at a 2.5% difficulty rise for LTC my Titans will be out by July and the L3's will be out by sept/oct.)

Hope I'm wrong..but this looks a lot like the difficulty hump that tossed all home miners out of BTC in 2014..very deja vu like

You may assume this is the case but there's no guarantee that diff will increase any further and even if it does there's still no guarantee that it will increase consistently for 12-24 months.
If you look at LTC diff chart from Oct 2014 to Oct 2015 when Titans and A2's came on stream, diff increased to 58,000 in Dec 2014, and then fell back to just above 40,000 for 6 months before rising slowly to 58,000 again by the end of 2015, so for most of 2015 it was 10,000 below the starting point.
http://www.coindesk.com/data/litecoin-mining-difficulty-time/ Check the 'All' button.

The real question is how many L3's are going to be produced? If you look at the figures below 550 GH/s has been added to the Litecoin network alone since the 3rd of Jan.
Jan 20 2017    95,319    7.56%    2,729 GH/s
Jan 17 2017    88,617    5.96%    2,537 GH/s
Jan 14 2017    83,632    11.56%    2,395 GH/s
Jan 10 2017    74,964    -0.52%    2,146 GH/s
Jan 07 2017    75,357    -0.79%    2,158 GH/s
Jan 03 2017    75,959    -1.36%    2,175 GH/s

550 x 1000 / 250 = 2200 L3's. In total I'd imagine Batch 1 was 2500 or 3000 L3's with the rest mining alt-coins. How big will batch 2 be? I'd suggest we need to be prepared for another 2-2500.

The other factor is price. With the PBOC authorities cracking down on exchanges, the price has crashed and can probably only rise in the next 12-24 months. This will affect Bitmains production plans as low profitability will kill sales while people are using ROI calculators to assess profits, but can also change your ROI dramatically if you mine and hold. Factor in 10% per 6 months and see how that changes things. Of course prices could fall, but LTC itself is very stable so I doubt it.

One of my strategies is to get paid out in Shadowcash, Monero, MaidSafeCoin, ZCash, etc in the belief that these will continue to rise significantly in 2017.

Overall, the main problem with the available calculators is that they only consider one coin. If you mine on a multi-pool you should be able to make 10% to 30% more after fees than mining LTC alone. Once you factor that it and play with the risks and factors above, you might have a very different ROI calculation.

Try using 0.0000225 BTC per Mh/s per day as your payout, I think thats a fairly realistic figure to start with.

 For the last 2 years or so anyway. It's been impressively stable - but it's also had ZERO new gear showing up for most of that timeframe to drive hashrate and difficulty up.
 I've also gotten a sense that there might be a major mining whale out there that's been actively trying to keep the price stable (on a $ exchange basis, not on a BTC exchange basis) to keep their competition low enough to drive out most of the less efficient mining hardware while maximizing their own mining profits.


 I have the same issue, but I am also constrained by lack of available capitol.
 The incremental cost of the L3 for me makes it not an option for the forseeable future, no matter how profitable it is - even if it turns out to be S5 level reliability or better instead of S9 unreliability level.