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Topic: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It - page 1224. (Read 3917543 times)

kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1026
Why not use a stripped down version of the bitcoin code? Each share is a coin, no decimal places allowed, and blocks can be generated using the issuers signing key instead of mining. Shares can be traded p2p and transactions confirmed by the issuer.

Why would you want to give issuers the power to veto transactions?

1) Possibly there are legal reasons they must.

2) ASICMINER has that power right now.

3) An issuer in general always has the ultimate power:  they can inflate their own shares, or simply stop producing useful revenue.

1) Why should we care about that?  We have the means of making a better system.  Law always plays catch-up anyway.

2) True.  And before they had the sole ability, GLBSE had it.  All of the "stock exchanges" are just ledger books, even MPEX.  By and large, we don't accept money that is only ours because someone says it is ours, we prefer money that is cryptographically ours.  Why do we still accept fiat securities while we reject fiat money?

3) They always have the ability to do things globally.  Why should they also have the ability to selectively veto private transfers?

I worked out a system (probably like the 50th person to do so, but whatever)  with a merged mine chain that was a bit like namecoin, but with quantities.  Totally decentralized, like bitcoin.  You'd need brokers still, but that's pretty much the case when trading bitcoin also.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
bitfountain decided to create an own exchange and already did this.
Oh. An "exchange". "already" you say.

And where is this exchange where I can buy/sell, please?

--

Actually, my question is rhetorical since I've already transferred all my shares to BitFunder and sold out.

IMO, 0.8+ BTC per share is about twice the 'proper' price.

And I recognize that is fairly open to debate. I made my assumptions and estimates for the next twelve months and made my decision.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
I really don't get why one of the established exchanges isn't being used.  Seems like the shares in the passthroughs work just fine.

I'd say it's because they aren't really established. Other than MPEx they have only been around for a few months, and have relatively low trade volumes. Bitfountain has a fine dividend system in place, and we have the option of using BTC-TC and Bitfunder to trade our shares if we want to take that risk.

Bitfunder has about 640btc 24hr volume right now, probly not as high as mpex, but nothing to sneeze at.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 1083
Legendary Escrow Service - Tip Jar in Profile
I really don't get why one of the established exchanges isn't being used.  Seems like the shares in the passthroughs work just fine.

I'd say it's because they aren't really established. Other than MPEx they have only been around for a few months, and have relatively low trade volumes. Bitfountain has a fine dividend system in place, and we have the option of using BTC-TC and Bitfunder to trade our shares if we want to take that risk.

Risk in an exchange would only apply for money in the exchange and the asset infos. If an exchange gives out that info regularly to the asset issuer and if no real btc is shared in there, for example because money left is always sent back to an address owned by the shareholder, then i dont see much risk. At least no risk like it happened in glbse.com.
Anyway... bitfountain decided to create an own exchange and already did this. It wont happen that shares will be traded on another share anymore. Thinking about this is pointless i believe. Its only a matter of time if friedcat and team can solve the problems, get the remaining TH online and have time to test the exchange before letting go it live. It still sounds they are working pretty hard so it might take some time till thats happening.
donator
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
I really don't get why one of the established exchanges isn't being used.  Seems like the shares in the passthroughs work just fine.

I'd say it's because they aren't really established. Other than MPEx they have only been around for a few months, and have relatively low trade volumes. Bitfountain has a fine dividend system in place, and we have the option of using BTC-TC and Bitfunder to trade our shares if we want to take that risk.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
I really don't get why one of the established exchanges isn't being used.  Seems like the shares in the passthroughs work just fine.
vip
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1043
👻
I really don't get why one of the established exchanges isn't being used.  Seems like the shares in the passthroughs work just fine.
Bitfountain doesn't get much advantage considering each transfer takes around, 30 secs to verify? They already have the div payments system in place.
hero member
Activity: 763
Merit: 500
I really don't get why one of the established exchanges isn't being used.  Seems like the shares in the passthroughs work just fine.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1100
Why not use a stripped down version of the bitcoin code? Each share is a coin, no decimal places allowed, and blocks can be generated using the issuers signing key instead of mining. Shares can be traded p2p and transactions confirmed by the issuer.

Why would you want to give issuers the power to veto transactions?

1) Possibly there are legal reasons they must.

2) ASICMINER has that power right now.

3) An issuer in general always has the ultimate power:  they can inflate their own shares, or simply stop producing useful revenue.

hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 501
There is more to Bitcoin than bitcoins.
The core idea is simple:  Each company maintains their own shareholder registry.  Changes to the shareholder registry must be cryptographically signed and verified.  The registry must be published in a public medium on a regular basis for auditing/anti-cheating purposes.


...and exchanges can then be meta-exchanges, providing services such as escrow, or regulatory compliance, or protection from regulatory bodies, etc. - whatever an investor prefers, while companies are shielded from the chaos of various preferences of various investors. At the same time, companies would still have access to the whole world of investors - not limiting themselves to certain subgroup with certain preferences. It's a win-win-win situation.
vip
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1043
👻
Why not use a stripped down version of the bitcoin code? Each share is a coin, no decimal places allowed, and blocks can be generated using the issuers signing key instead of mining. Shares can be traded p2p and transactions confirmed by the issuer.

Why would you want to give issuers the power to veto transactions?

The issuer would also be able to retract the entire issue, or do whatever games they wanted to with that chain.  But they probably wouldn't do too much of that, since it would all be out in public.
The issuer could just go AWOL already. Kinda like TSA forbidding pilots carry nail clippers or something.
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1026
Why not use a stripped down version of the bitcoin code? Each share is a coin, no decimal places allowed, and blocks can be generated using the issuers signing key instead of mining. Shares can be traded p2p and transactions confirmed by the issuer.

Why would you want to give issuers the power to veto transactions?

The issuer would also be able to retract the entire issue, or do whatever games they wanted to with that chain.  But they probably wouldn't do too much of that, since it would all be out in public.
donator
Activity: 994
Merit: 1000
Why not use a stripped down version of the bitcoin code? Each share is a coin, no decimal places allowed, and blocks can be generated using the issuers signing key instead of mining. Shares can be traded p2p and transactions confirmed by the issuer.
That's the concept of colored coins.

However, there may be a need to keep track of shareholders for various legal reasons. Thus a central maintenance is advisable, where friedcat has at least an email address to contact you.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
Drunk Posts
Why not use a stripped down version of the bitcoin code? Each share is a coin, no decimal places allowed, and blocks can be generated using the issuers signing key instead of mining. Shares can be traded p2p and transactions confirmed by the issuer.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
Lead Blockchain Developer
The core idea is simple:  Each company maintains their own shareholder registry.  Changes to the shareholder registry must be cryptographically signed and verified.  The registry must be published in a public medium on a regular basis for auditing/anti-cheating purposes.



I was gonna say... can't wait 'till all the pirates out there get ahold of this software.  We're gonna have "IPO's" all over the place with no visibility into the actual underlying numbers.  Wink
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1100
As a security feature he may still want to manually "check" each trade, to make sure there are not hacking attempts. But it would be highly automized, allowing for a higher throughput.

Yes.  Some legal juridictions may be required to manually check each trade, to make sure they have legally-required investor information.

If exchanges get into play, most changes to the shareholder registry will be boring:

(example)
  • 2013-Mar-21 00:23:11 transfer 100 shares from FOO EXCHANGE to BAR EXCHANGE
  • 2013-Mar-21 00:23:12 transfer 800 shares from FOO EXCHANGE to BIFF EXCHANGE
  • 2013-Mar-21 00:23:14 transfer 1000 shares from BAZ EXCHANGE to FOO EXCHANGE
  • 2013-Mar-21 00:23:19 transfer 18 shares from FOO EXCHANGE to Jeff Garzik

legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1100
The core idea is simple:  Each company maintains their own shareholder registry.  Changes to the shareholder registry must be cryptographically signed and verified.  The registry must be published in a public medium on a regular basis for auditing/anti-cheating purposes.

donator
Activity: 994
Merit: 1000
That is all that is needed on the ASICMINER side:  maintain a shareholder registry.  changes to the shareholder registry may be both pseudonymous and secure.

Then anyone may build an exchange that trades shares.  Anyone may trade ASICMINER shares at any time, using this method.
Reminds me of a few DNS email robot systems I have seen. What is required is a definition of an API which works through email.

As a security feature he may still want to manually "check" each trade, to make sure there are not hacking attempts. But it would be highly automized, allowing for a higher throughput.
vip
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1043
👻
How about this:  make it possible for users to create their own decentralized exchange.

  • Register a bitcoin address for each shareholder, if not already.  This enables the ability to authenticate cryptographically signed digital messages.  See this stackexchange answer for a guide.  Most bitcoin clients support signing messages.  Registering a GPG key for each shareholder is an alternative, though that requires additional software beyond a bitcoin client.
  • Publicly declare a bitcoin address and GPG key for official ASICMINER messages.
  • Publicly declare an email address for emailing ASICMINER robot
  • At the end of every day, ASICMINER robot produces a message listing all shareholders, by key and share count.  Attach bitcoin and GPG digital signatures.
  • To trade ASICMINER shares, the seller sends a digitally-signed message "transfer N shares to bitcoin address FOO" to the ASICMINER robot.

That is all that is needed on the ASICMINER side:  maintain a shareholder registry.  changes to the shareholder registry may be both pseudonymous and secure.

Then anyone may build an exchange that trades shares.  Anyone may trade ASICMINER shares at any time, using this method.



So, as I understand your proposal, one does not even need to be a miner to implement this.  All you need to do is run a bitcoin client and have some additional robot code which adds, transfers and reports on shares.  Fascinating.  Now find a way to host it which provides plausible deniability and can't be taken down.  I2P or a Tor hidden service perhaps?

This idea deserves its own thread in Project Development!

If I understand this correctly, when you lose your wallet, all of your shares would be lost in addition to your coins?  That poses some interesting problems for shareholders and issuer alike.

The rest of it (gpg trading) is roughly what MPEx does I think?  Definitely seems to be a sound trade mechanism.



If you allow Bitcoin OR gpg signing, then you'd have to lose both
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
Lead Blockchain Developer
How about this:  make it possible for users to create their own decentralized exchange.

  • Register a bitcoin address for each shareholder, if not already.  This enables the ability to authenticate cryptographically signed digital messages.  See this stackexchange answer for a guide.  Most bitcoin clients support signing messages.  Registering a GPG key for each shareholder is an alternative, though that requires additional software beyond a bitcoin client.
  • Publicly declare a bitcoin address and GPG key for official ASICMINER messages.
  • Publicly declare an email address for emailing ASICMINER robot
  • At the end of every day, ASICMINER robot produces a message listing all shareholders, by key and share count.  Attach bitcoin and GPG digital signatures.
  • To trade ASICMINER shares, the seller sends a digitally-signed message "transfer N shares to bitcoin address FOO" to the ASICMINER robot.

That is all that is needed on the ASICMINER side:  maintain a shareholder registry.  changes to the shareholder registry may be both pseudonymous and secure.

Then anyone may build an exchange that trades shares.  Anyone may trade ASICMINER shares at any time, using this method.



So, as I understand your proposal, one does not even need to be a miner to implement this.  All you need to do is run a bitcoin client and have some additional robot code which adds, transfers and reports on shares.  Fascinating.  Now find a way to host it which provides plausible deniability and can't be taken down.  I2P or a Tor hidden service perhaps?

This idea deserves its own thread in Project Development!

If I understand this correctly, when you lose your wallet, all of your shares would be lost in addition to your coins?  That poses some interesting problems for shareholders and issuer alike.

The rest of it (gpg trading) is roughly what MPEx does I think?  Definitely seems to be a sound trade mechanism.


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