ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It - page 1225.

jgarzik

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Quote from: Cryptoman on March 21, 2013, 03:26:45 PM

Quote from: jgarzik on March 21, 2013, 11:15:24 AM

How about this: make it possible for users to create their own decentralized exchange.

So, as I understand your proposal, one does not even need to be a miner to implement this.

Correct.

Quote

All you need to do is run a bitcoin client and have some additional robot code which adds, transfers and reports on shares.

Shareholders don't need any robot code:

1) ASICMINER runs the "shareholder registry" robot.

2) Shareholders do not need anything but a bitcoin client with the "sign message" feature.

3) A person-to-person share trade looks like this:

   a) Alice sends 100 BTC to Bob
   b) Alice sends bitcoin address ABCDEF to Bob
   c) Bob emails ASICMINER robot, with signed message "transfer ownership of my 50 shares to address ABCDEF"
   d) The next time ASICMINER robot publishes a shareholder registry, it says "50 shares owned by ABCDEF"

4) If you want to run an automated share trading market, create a website that accepts bitcoin or ASICMINER share deposits, ....

Cryptoman

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Quote from: jgarzik on March 21, 2013, 11:15:24 AM

How about this: make it possible for users to create their own decentralized exchange.

Register a bitcoin address for each shareholder, if not already. This enables the ability to authenticate cryptographically signed digital messages. See this stackexchange answer for a guide. Most bitcoin clients support signing messages. Registering a GPG key for each shareholder is an alternative, though that requires additional software beyond a bitcoin client.
Publicly declare a bitcoin address and GPG key for official ASICMINER messages.
Publicly declare an email address for emailing ASICMINER robot
At the end of every day, ASICMINER robot produces a message listing all shareholders, by key and share count. Attach bitcoin and GPG digital signatures.
To trade ASICMINER shares, the seller sends a digitally-signed message "transfer N shares to bitcoin address FOO" to the ASICMINER robot.

That is all that is needed on the ASICMINER side: maintain a shareholder registry. changes to the shareholder registry may be both pseudonymous and secure.

Then anyone may build an exchange that trades shares. Anyone may trade ASICMINER shares at any time, using this method.

So, as I understand your proposal, one does not even need to be a miner to implement this. All you need to do is run a bitcoin client and have some additional robot code which adds, transfers and reports on shares. Fascinating. Now find a way to host it which provides plausible deniability (because you'd be violating securities laws) and can't be taken down. I2P or a Tor hidden service perhaps?

This idea deserves its own thread in Project Development!

samson

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Quote from: jgarzik on March 21, 2013, 11:15:24 AM

How about this: make it possible for users to create their own decentralized exchange.

Register a bitcoin address for each shareholder, if not already. This enables the ability to authenticate cryptographically signed digital messages. See this stackexchange answer for a guide. Most bitcoin clients support signing messages. Registering a GPG key for each shareholder is an alternative, though that requires additional software beyond a bitcoin client.
Publicly declare a bitcoin address and GPG key for official ASICMINER messages.
Publicly declare an email address for emailing ASICMINER robot
At the end of every day, ASICMINER robot produces a message listing all shareholders, by key and share count. Attach bitcoin and GPG digital signatures.
To trade ASICMINER shares, the seller sends a digitally-signed message "transfer N shares to bitcoin address FOO" to the ASICMINER robot.

That is all that is needed on the ASICMINER side: maintain a shareholder registry. changes to the shareholder registry may be both pseudonymous and secure.

Then anyone may build an exchange that trades shares. Anyone may trade ASICMINER shares at any time, using this method.

Sounds good to me. If we could move shares around like currency it would be a real boost.

They would only need depositing into an exchange account when you want to sell them.

I guess this would be treating shares like a kind of currency.

friedcat

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Pre-Update

I'm in the farm and fixing the network connection problem. Using a cellphone to write this post.

This week's update will cover the stagnancy of this batch, the production status of the next, and a rewritten OP to reduce the number of recent growing mails and PMs asking for long-non-available IPO shares.

jgarzik

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How about this: make it possible for users to create their own decentralized exchange.

Register a bitcoin address for each shareholder, if not already. This enables the ability to authenticate cryptographically signed digital messages. See this stackexchange answer for a guide. Most bitcoin clients support signing messages. Registering a GPG key for each shareholder is an alternative, though that requires additional software beyond a bitcoin client.
Publicly declare a bitcoin address and GPG key for official ASICMINER messages.
Publicly declare an email address for emailing ASICMINER robot
At the end of every day, ASICMINER robot produces a message listing all shareholders, by key and share count. Attach bitcoin and GPG digital signatures.
To trade ASICMINER shares, the seller sends a digitally-signed message "transfer N shares to bitcoin address FOO" to the ASICMINER robot.

That is all that is needed on the ASICMINER side: maintain a shareholder registry. changes to the shareholder registry may be both pseudonymous and secure.

Then anyone may build an exchange that trades shares. Anyone may trade ASICMINER shares at any time, using this method.

SebastianJu

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Legendary Escrow Service - Tip Jar in Profile

Quote from: samson on March 21, 2013, 09:50:32 AM

Quote from: ThickAsThieves on March 21, 2013, 09:46:49 AM

I speculate that you'll see another 6TH right after the next diff change.

That would definitely be a good time to turn it all on.

I believe that wouldnt matter because the next diff will be calculated in average of the last difficult mined. So if you turn it on earlier you would probably even get an advantage because of the lower competition and the diff wouldnt raise that much because it was only online and mining a short time. Otherwise one could take out all hashpower short before the next diff to set the next diff lower.

samson

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Quote from: ThickAsThieves on March 21, 2013, 09:46:49 AM

I speculate that you'll see another 6TH right after the next diff change.

That would definitely be a good time to turn it all on.

ThickAsThieves

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Quote from: Mausini on March 21, 2013, 09:35:42 AM

I would not even sell shares just for the fun of being involved in such an interesting project. No need for a platform. Shares are traded anyways. I'm rather curious when the remaining 6 TH will come online. It would be awesome, if hashing speed doubles exactly when the 200k bitfountain shares set in (or earlier). Looking forward to today's update.

Edit: AM on BTCGuild down 1 TH and bitfountain miner back on ozcoin

I speculate that you'll see another 6TH right after the next diff change.

Mausini

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I would not even sell shares just for the fun of being involved in such an interesting project. No need for a platform. Shares are traded anyways. I'm rather curious when the remaining 6 TH will come online. It would be awesome, if hashing speed doubles exactly when the 200k bitfountain shares set in (or earlier). Looking forward to today's update.

Edit: AM on BTCGuild down 1 TH and bitfountain miner back on ozcoin

Franktank

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Quote from: Lethos on March 21, 2013, 09:08:45 AM

I'm sure this will be seen as negative, but I'm not really fussed about ASICMiner being back on a share/stock exchange.

I would agree. There are the two passthroughs on the two stock exchanges if there are individuals who prefer that method. Personally, I think there's a novel appeal to scouring the Marketplace forums for AM shares. It forces potential buyers to research and see what they're getting into. It also encourages interaction and knowing who you're dealing with, as opposed to just clicking "buy/sell" (which are perfectly fine methods as well). These are all positives (imo). Until there is an official platform, I think the current method is a fine stop-gap for the time being.

Lethos

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Keep it Simple. Every Bit Matters.

I'm sure this will be seen as negative, but I'm not really fussed about ASICMiner being back on a share/stock exchange.

ASICMiner was one of the few success stories that also survived GLBSE. Why risk the stress (and loss of BTC) of that happening again.

Tachikoma

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The problem is, I assume, that a lot of time and money already went into building their own solution. If they decide to go for Bitfunder they would throw that all away. With the passthroughs happening I can only speculate it released some of the pressure on their own platform since trading can now happen relatively easy.

Who knows, perhaps today's update can address it.

VeeMiner

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bitcoin hodler

I suggest that friedcat sets up the shares on bitfunder.com, it seems like a good enough exchange. The GLBSE problem can't happen again since there doesn't have to be a significant amount of BTC going in/out of the exchange. It has a 2 factor authentication and that seems good enough for me.

What do you guys think? I think developing own trading platfor will take forever and it will be too much work. Also dealing with security is a problem. Anyway I think that the liquidity of the shares would go up and it would be good for ASICMINER

lophie

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Quote from: Jutarul on March 21, 2013, 01:43:40 AM

Quote from: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on March 21, 2013, 01:42:45 AM

You also bought in at IPO price right?

correct.

Same here for most of my shares

ShadesOfMarble

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Selling my ASICMINER shares:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/selling-asicminer-shares-total-76-shares-for-60-btc-155440

Jutarul

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Quote from: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on March 21, 2013, 01:42:45 AM

You also bought in at IPO price right?

correct.

🏰 TradeFortress 🏰

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Quote from: Jutarul on March 21, 2013, 01:40:34 AM

Quote from: lophie on March 21, 2013, 12:57:22 AM

- Some could have sold for much higher due to speculation effect since the first deployment (Jutarul fixed auction for 0.5 was an utter loss and waste of effort for him in my opinion!)

Of course you're entitled to your own opinion. But I am an investor not a speculator, thus my math works a little bit differently. The price of 0.5 BTC/share was chosen for two reasons: a) it was a target sell from the get-go (yes I do have a schedule). b) It is what I consider a "fair" trading price, which takes into account the expected earnings in the foreseeable future. The current market price only makes sense if you assume that people "bet" on the genius friedcat to come up with a way to continue the success story past 2013. And for that very same reason I am not gonna liquidate my remaining position for a long time. Thank you.

You also bought in at IPO price right?

Jutarul

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Quote from: lophie on March 21, 2013, 12:57:22 AM

- Some could have sold for much higher due to speculation effect since the first deployment (Jutarul fixed auction for 0.5 was an utter loss and waste of effort for him in my opinion!)

Of course you're entitled to your own opinion. But I am an investor not a speculator, thus my math works a little bit differently. The price of 0.5 BTC/share was chosen for two reasons: a) it was a target sell from the get-go (yes I do have a schedule). b) It is what I consider a "fair" trading price, which takes into account the expected earnings in the foreseeable future. The current market price only makes sense if you assume that people "bet" on the genius friedcat to come up with a way to continue the success story past 2013. And for that very same reason I am not gonna liquidate my remaining position for a long time. Thank you.

🏰 TradeFortress 🏰

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Quote from: lophie on March 21, 2013, 01:02:20 AM

Quote from: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on March 21, 2013, 12:59:53 AM

We also might get more hashpower, like really

Quote from: lophie on March 21, 2013, 12:57:22 AM

Considering as well the "relatively"slow deployment rate that doesn't look like it is going to compensate for the two points I just mentioned

Trying to figure out ASICMINER's deployment process purely by watching their workers isn't a good way to predict future hashpower.

Also, using a portion of the dividends to increase future expansion is not a bad idea at all. It's the difference between an actual mining company and a PMB.

lophie

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Quote from: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on March 21, 2013, 12:59:53 AM

We also might get more hashpower, like really

Quote from: lophie on March 21, 2013, 12:57:22 AM

Considering as well the "relatively"slow deployment rate that doesn't look like it is going to compensate for the two points I just mentioned

So unless we will grow by 60% at least. We are going to receive way less dividends next week!

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