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Topic: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It - page 1237. (Read 3917543 times)

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
btct has way less volume than bitfunder, even you buy 2% less in btct, you might have a hard time selling them.

Not seeing a big difference - BTC.CO has had 1200 or so trade and BitFunder maybe 1500 (no 30-day total on view, estimate from scanning history).  Bitfunder started selling first but BTC.CO sold 1k first - then Bitfunder passed it as BTC.CO had no new ones up for a day or so after their first 1K sold out.

Low trade on other securities isn't relevant when there's plenty of buyers for ASICMINER.

If I was buying I'd likely put up bids on both and cancel one when I bought on other.  If I ended up buying on both then I'd try selling on both and repeat until I ended up with number of shares I wanted.  Nut then I already trade (and have funds) on both sites.

If I was selling right now then it's a close call - I'd go BTC.CO if I was willing to put up an Ask and wait (Low Ask is significantly higher there plus a lot less other shares competing against me to sell) and BitFunder if I wanted to sell quickly (higher Bid there).
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
Bitcoin is new, makes sense to hodl.
btct has way less volume than bitfunder, even you buy 2% less in btct, you might have a hard time selling them.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
I didnt suggest to scam the shareholders, only to save the money and give it out as dividend later. I only know that there are people that fear 51% attacks regardless if it would make sense to attack or not. And i only wrote this to fight these fears because i trust friedcat and his team very much. He proved that they are trustworthy so i wouldnt fear any loss if he would handle it this way to circumvent the fear of some people.
But ok, one could feel unease about this. Bitfountain most probably wont ever get to this point.

You came very close if you did not. This is Business Ethics 101, don't lie to your customers/shareholders, even if it is "for their own good."

You implied (and came very close to stating) that it would be OK for ASICMINER to build up more than 50% (after all, it's an "over 50% attack, not a 51% required) of the network without telling anyone if they just keep the proceeds until the >50% danger is over. This would do absolutely nothing to prevent ASICMINER from acting badly with their network majority, AND would ensure that stockholders and the public are uninformed that there is a potential attack on the network. We would all find out later that there WAS a >50% situation, and the resultant panic (IMHO) would not be that different that that which would happen if the public/shareholders were informed of the situation.

As a mining company, there is a moral (and contractual in most cases) obligation to tell your shareholders the truth about the amount of ore coming out of the ground (as well as the quality) and if they try to hide a pile of good ore in the tailings (in case of hard times) then they are defrauding their shareholders and the management should be replaced.

I realize you made the suggestion in good faith, but the implications of it fail the business ethics sniff test.

Personally I would much rather see reliable and accurate updates that can be matched against the public record (so we can validate the ongoing honesty of the operation) and then if ASICMINER starts to approach 50% they should either delay implementing new hardware (actively attempting to avoid >50%) and announce the delay, or sell hardware to another party in sufficient quantity to ensure that they cannot gain >50% share.

Either way, you are correct that the planning for this scenario is important, so that the resultant policy can be shared and used as (a critical) part of the valuation of the company. Similar plans for fire/flood/power outage and other disasters should happen at some point too, but I'm willing to wait 3-6 months for them to hit their stride with "production" hardware before I start insisting on answers to these and other issues. After all, the company needs to survive before it can protect itself or us.

Having two exchanges do it is great for us - as it forces them to compete both on terms and on price: they both want to attract users more than make a profit on ASICMINER, so we get pass-throughs at no cost (BitFunder) or very small cost (BTC.CO).

Better yet, don't pick one exchange, diversify across both and you will reduce your risk in the case of another GLBSE-style event.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
Is an ASICMiner share any different from one that is in a PT? friedcat mentioned they would make one eventually. Dividends are paid out the same, right?

On Bitfunder it's the same since DT doesn't take any fees. You can even get your shares out of the PT if you have 250 shares or more.

BTC.CO one takes a small management fee from dividends (2% now I believe).  Transfers in/out of it are free as well.

So right now if prices are the same you're better off buying on Bitfunder.  If you can get them 2% or more cheaper on BTC.CO then you should buy there.

If looking to sell shares then it's other way round - you'd want prices to be 2% or more higher on BTC.CO for it to be better value for you to deposit your shares there to sell.

Obviously if you already prefer one platform to the other then you should use the one you prefer unless the price difference is heavily in favour of the other.  I use both - and they each have their strengths and weaknesses.

I expect prices to remain fairly close on both - as if there's any big difference between them people who use both will withdraw from one and deposit into the other.

Having two exchanges do it is great for us - as it forces them to compete both on terms and on price: they both want to attract users more than make a profit on ASICMINER, so we get pass-throughs at no cost (BitFunder) or very small cost (BTC.CO).
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
Is an ASICMiner share any different from one that is in a PT? friedcat mentioned they would make one eventually. Dividends are paid out the same, right?

On Bitfunder it's the same since DT doesn't take any fees. You can even get your shares out of the PT if you have 250 shares or more.

And at no charge. Wink
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 1000
Is an ASICMiner share any different from one that is in a PT? friedcat mentioned they would make one eventually. Dividends are paid out the same, right?

On Bitfunder it's the same since DT doesn't take any fees. You can even get your shares out of the PT if you have 250 shares or more.
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
Is an ASICMiner share any different from one that is in a PT? friedcat mentioned they would make one eventually. Dividends are paid out the same, right?
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
Lead Blockchain Developer
at this point I pretty much missed the boat, but still would like to see if anyone still selling shares and about the expected ROI.

https://btct.co/security/ASICMINER-PT

no PT. thats why I came to this topic. thanks!

There seems to be good activity here too: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=73.0
legendary
Activity: 1064
Merit: 1000
at this point I pretty much missed the boat, but still would like to see if anyone still selling shares and about the expected ROI.

https://btct.co/security/ASICMINER-PT

no PT. thats why I came to this topic. thanks!
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
Lead Blockchain Developer
at this point I pretty much missed the boat, but still would like to see if anyone still selling shares and about the expected ROI.

https://btct.co/security/ASICMINER-PT
legendary
Activity: 1064
Merit: 1000
at this point I pretty much missed the boat, but still would like to see if anyone still selling shares and about the expected ROI.
hero member
Activity: 607
Merit: 500
yes, i know what you mean, this is a free market Smiley
that is why i made also a post about BTC's future since #2 is unavoidable  Wink
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1604973
vip
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1043
👻
2. huge hashing power to an "elit" of people will destroy BTC
(the same goes if a few people own huge BTC ammounts)

I think there are already an elite group of ppl holding huge amounts of btc. Wink
Also, how much BTC does Satoshi hold again? A million?
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
2. huge hashing power to an "elit" of people will destroy BTC
(the same goes if a few people own huge BTC ammounts)

I think there are already an elite group of ppl holding huge amounts of btc. Wink
hero member
Activity: 607
Merit: 500
i vote also for hardware selling:
1. perhaps in the future, ASIC mining will not be that much of a profit if "free" electricity is not available Wink
why not selling rigs to people with free electricity?
2. huge hashing power to an "elit" of people will destroy BTC
(the same goes if a few people own huge BTC ammounts)
donator
Activity: 994
Merit: 1000
The closest thing to "danger" from a majority miner is that they can create a side chain in secret and release it to overturn a bunch of history.  Being a majority miner in full public view is no danger to anyone, regardless of what the trolls and noobs on the forums think.
With >10% hashing power in one facility you may as well put yourself a crosshair on the T-shirt and jump the border between pakistan and india back and forth. While I approve of bitfountains plan to benefit from the technological transition and temporarily maintain a 30% hashing power, holding that much hashing power longterm is an invitation for a malicious takeover. And yes - they will come.

Getting the hardware ready for selling is the No 1. thing on the todo list, once you hit 25% hashing power, because by selling hardware you create income from anticipated future mining profits which do not increase your operational risk. Bitfountain can not rely on competitors to sell enough hashing power so that Bitfountain doesn't have to do it.
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1026
The closest thing to "danger" from a majority miner is that they can create a side chain in secret and release it to overturn a bunch of history.  Being a majority miner in full public view is no danger to anyone, regardless of what the trolls and noobs on the forums think.

Hashing power on the network is safe hashing power.
vip
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1043
👻
I didnt suggest to scam the shareholders, only to save the money and give it out as dividend later. I only know that there are people that fear 51% attacks regardless if it would make sense to attack or not. And i only wrote this to fight these fears because i trust friedcat and his team very much. He proved that they are trustworthy so i wouldnt fear any loss if he would handle it this way to circumvent the fear of some people.
But ok, one could feel unease about this. Bitfountain most probably wont ever get to this point.
Suppressing information to create fake confidence isn't a good idea. We'll never get to that point through.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 1083
Legendary Escrow Service - Tip Jar in Profile
I didnt suggest to scam the shareholders, only to save the money and give it out as dividend later. I only know that there are people that fear 51% attacks regardless if it would make sense to attack or not. And i only wrote this to fight these fears because i trust friedcat and his team very much. He proved that they are trustworthy so i wouldnt fear any loss if he would handle it this way to circumvent the fear of some people.
But ok, one could feel unease about this. Bitfountain most probably wont ever get to this point.
donator
Activity: 994
Merit: 1000
In case that you get near 51%... just in case... i would suggest to partly mine solo in a hidden way.
Please learn about what bitcoin represents and try to understand why that is a stupid suggestion. There is something like too much hashing power. Unless you're evil, then 100% is just enough.
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