ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It - page 1313.

Jutarul

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Quote from: DutchBrat on October 09, 2012, 03:01:17 PM

And if you dont have a csv file...
We cant log in anymore to download one....

Yes. Then you should at least submit your claimed amount and your user ID.
Anybody who does not have a csv file should keep that a secret. Otherwise people with CSV file could erase their corresponding entries, which complicates things.

I am not claiming that the procedure is perfect, but its better than nothing.

DutchBrat

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Quote from: Jutarul on October 09, 2012, 02:56:44 PM

Quote from: lame.duck on October 09, 2012, 02:10:01 PM

Quote from: Jutarul on October 09, 2012, 12:01:19 PM

If you don't have a csv backup and timestamps for your asicminer transactions, naturally you're second in line.

How should this work? If someone has bought some A shares and later sold some B and bought later some C shares again and would delete the line with (B) would the get how many shares? And i am not aware if there are/were GLBSE trade data avaiable on the net that could be used to fake CSV files. Or other than that, i someone made his last backab after B. Given that B were smaller than C would it morally legit to delete the sell line to get at least A shares instead the fewer A-B shares?

The result of such a puzzle would be that the data will be containing a lot of questionable data.

Yes. That's why you have to construct a tree. You assume that the ASICMINER csv file is accurate, then you have to traverse the tree down. Each transaction involves two parties, thus each sell has to correspond to a buy in another CSV file with the correct amount and timestamp. If a CSV record has been altered you should detect that by not being able to match the corresponding transaction with the remainder of the network. It's a hell of a job, but that's the most reliable thing you can do. If a certain branch clears without contradictions with the remainder of the tree, you have high confidence that the data is correct.

Let's only do that if GLBSE doesn't provide any means to resolve the claims. In the meantime, please make sure that you have a recent copy of your csv transaction file. Of course, there will be a lot of dispute for trades which were done a few days before GLBSE closed down. But if you have a sufficiently complete copy of the CSV file history you can work your way towards a reliable version of the shareholder database. May take a month though...

And if you dont have a csv file...

We cant log in anymore to download one....

Jutarul

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Quote from: lame.duck on October 09, 2012, 02:10:01 PM

Quote from: Jutarul on October 09, 2012, 12:01:19 PM

If you don't have a csv backup and timestamps for your asicminer transactions, naturally you're second in line.

How should this work? If someone has bought some A shares and later sold some B and bought later some C shares again and would delete the line with (B) would the get how many shares? And i am not aware if there are/were GLBSE trade data avaiable on the net that could be used to fake CSV files. Or other than that, i someone made his last backab after B. Given that B were smaller than C would it morally legit to delete the sell line to get at least A shares instead the fewer A-B shares?

The result of such a puzzle would be that the data will be containing a lot of questionable data.

Yes. That's why you have to construct a tree. You assume that the ASICMINER csv file is accurate, then you have to traverse the tree down. Each transaction involves two parties, thus each sell has to correspond to a buy in another CSV file with the correct amount and timestamp. If a CSV record has been altered you should detect that by not being able to match the corresponding transaction with the remainder of the network. It's a hell of a job, but that's the most reliable thing you can do. If a certain branch clears without contradictions with the remainder of the tree, you have high confidence that the data is correct.

Let's only do that if GLBSE doesn't provide any means to resolve the claims. In the meantime, please make sure that you have a recent copy of your csv transaction file. Of course, there will be a lot of dispute for trades which were done a few days before GLBSE closed down. But if you have a sufficiently complete copy of the CSV file history you can work your way towards a reliable version of the shareholder database. May take a month though...

lame.duck

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Quote from: Jutarul on October 09, 2012, 12:01:19 PM

In that case we should get all the csv backups from the shareholders and someone has to do a timestamp analysis of the involved transactions. This way you can reconstruct a tree and identify false claims.

If you don't have a csv backup and timestamps for your asicminer transactions, naturally you're second in line.

How should this work? If someone has bought some A shares and later sold some B and bought later some C shares again and would delete the line with (B) would the get how many shares? And i am not aware if there are/were GLBSE trade data avaiable on the net that could be used to fake CSV files. Or other than that, i someone made his last backab after B. Given that B were smaller than C would it morally legit to delete the sell line to get at least A shares instead the fewer A-B shares?

The result of such a puzzle would be that the data will be containing a lot of questionable data.

niko

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There is more to Bitcoin than bitcoins.

I second what matauc12 said above. You could have moved the remaining coins from glbse into your local client. If your computer got hacked and these coins stolen, then by your logic you should be held responsible for not keeping coins on glbse. It doesn't make sense. All we know is, the funds are currently held hostage due to unknown, possibly legal, issues in glbse, and due to interpersonal issues in their management. Let's wait for more information before discussing options.

matauc12

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Quote from: friedcat on October 09, 2012, 07:53:23 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

How much BTC do you have in glbse still?
If glbse doesnt pay it would be a hurt for shareholders too. Because its money that is lost to the company. And that money has to be earned first again. I hope its not so very much.
The same goes for local loans. The interest and the loan itself would have to be earned first. But anyway... the outcome of this all probably cant be changed.

It's not very much. We already sold another batch of Bitcoins to fiat after our first release of financial report to increase our fiat reserve to deal with emergent situations.

But if at last, the money is indeed lost with the GLBSE default, it will be like this:

--When we have to borrow some money to fill the gap
1. We use the company identity to borrow money because it will be more feasible than personal loans.
2. However, the reliability of returning the money lies only on me the individual.
3. I pay them back using my earnings from my shares of Bitfountain and other sources.

--When we don't have to borrow any money
1. I mark myself of owing the company the same amount of Bitcoins
2. The board members decide an interest rate for my debt, then make the corresponding motion, if not passed, iterate.
3. I pay them back using my earnings from my shares of Bitfountain and other sources.

It's my management fault to keep the rest of the funds within GLBSE and trust it like trusting our company's bank account. The shareholders of ASICMINER should not take the consequences.

it is not because a corner store owner didn't install cameras that he should be held responsible for theft. As I see it, this is not a management failure. You used the tools at your disposition and it didn't turn out well. Every shareholder takes responsibility for success or failure, that's usually how it works. I think at least if it comes to that point a motion could be raised to gauge the shareholders feeling about who's accountable for the loses if it really comes to that point. I know its not conventional, but that's my opinion on the matter. But nonetheless, let's only talk about a problem once we know its a problem I guess.

Jutarul

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Quote from: friedcat on October 09, 2012, 07:03:15 AM

Quote from: SebastianJu on October 09, 2012, 06:46:42 AM

Does that mean sell more shares? I mean there are still available public shares. Otherwise i wouldnt like the idea because it would devalue the value of the already sold shares because more people would have to get their part of the shares.

No. It means that if we will need emergent money, we would rather borrow RMB locally from banks or loaning companies and pay the them principals and interests on time, without giving up shares. When the chips are out, the risk become much lower and borrowing would be better than diluting shares.

If the chips are out and proven to work, Bitfountain can take preorders. That's the way to do it.

Quote from: friedcat on October 09, 2012, 07:03:15 AM

We are talking about the most extreme case already. In that case we either do nothing or do something imperfect. If with an insignificant probability that the number adds up without an insane result, it would be at least a better solution than doing nothing.

In that case we should get all the csv backups from the shareholders and someone has to do a timestamp analysis of the involved transactions. This way you can reconstruct a tree and identify false claims.

If you don't have a csv backup and timestamps for your asicminer transactions, naturally you're second in line.

DutchBrat

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Quote from: friedcat on October 09, 2012, 09:18:12 AM

Quote from: DutchBrat on October 09, 2012, 09:05:56 AM

Friedcat, from the above conversation I understand that Nefario has not contacted ASICMINER (i.e. you) yet with how to proceed

Makes it all seems very dodgy as the GLBSE website says they are closing accounts and refunding BTC since late last night UK time

Obviously they should talk to asset issuers first !

We mailed the information listed on the requirements on the announce page when it was first displayed. Till now no information is received
from GLBSE. There are two possibilities:

1. They will release an automatic claiming system so they don't process mail requests.
2. They haven't started refunding yet.

Fingers crossed !

friedcat

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Quote from: DutchBrat on October 09, 2012, 09:05:56 AM

Friedcat, from the above conversation I understand that Nefario has not contacted ASICMINER (i.e. you) yet with how to proceed

Makes it all seems very dodgy as the GLBSE website says they are closing accounts and refunding BTC since late last night UK time

Obviously they should talk to asset issuers first !

We mailed the information listed on the requirements on the announce page when it was first displayed. Till now no information is received
from GLBSE. There are two possibilities:

1. They will release an automatic claiming system so they don't process mail requests.
2. They haven't started refunding yet.

DutchBrat

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Activity: 868

Merit: 1000

Friedcat, from the above conversation I understand that Nefario has not contacted ASICMINER (i.e. you) yet with how to proceed

Makes it all seems very dodgy as the GLBSE website says they are closing accounts and refunding BTC since late last night UK time

Obviously they should talk to asset issuers first !

SebastianJu

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Quote from: friedcat on October 09, 2012, 07:53:23 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

How much BTC do you have in glbse still?
If glbse doesnt pay it would be a hurt for shareholders too. Because its money that is lost to the company. And that money has to be earned first again. I hope its not so very much.
The same goes for local loans. The interest and the loan itself would have to be earned first. But anyway... the outcome of this all probably cant be changed.

It's not very much. We already sold another batch of Bitcoins to fiat after our first release of financial report to increase our fiat reserve to deal with emergent situations.

But if at last, the money is indeed lost with the GLBSE default, it will be like this:

--When we have to borrow some money to fill the gap
1. We use the company identity to borrow money because it will be more feasible than personal loans.
2. However, the reliability of returning the money lies only on me the individual.
3. I pay them back using my earnings from my shares of Bitfountain and other sources.

--When we don't have to borrow any money
1. I mark myself of owing the company the same amount of Bitcoins
2. The board members decide an interest rate for my debt, then make the corresponding motion, if not passed, iterate.
3. I pay them back using my earnings from my shares of Bitfountain and other sources.

It's my management fault to keep the rest of the funds within GLBSE and trust it like trusting our company's bank account. The shareholders of ASICMINER should not take the consequences.

That sounds dignified. Even more because you arent guilty about the things happening with glbse. You really want to keep away every possible harm from shareholders. I hope you can carry that weight but i think you own a good part of the company so its quite possible. But before you get in personal trouble i would prefer the whole company is carrying it with you. But im only a small shareholder.

Anyway... its a generous offer. Lets hope its not needed.

friedcat

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Quote from: ?? on ??

How much BTC do you have in glbse still?
If glbse doesnt pay it would be a hurt for shareholders too. Because its money that is lost to the company. And that money has to be earned first again. I hope its not so very much.
The same goes for local loans. The interest and the loan itself would have to be earned first. But anyway... the outcome of this all probably cant be changed.

It's not very much. We already sold another batch of Bitcoins to fiat after our first release of financial report to increase our fiat reserve to deal with emergent situations.

But if at last, the money is indeed lost with the GLBSE default, it will be like this:

--When we have to borrow some money to fill the gap
1. We use the company identity to borrow money because it will be more feasible than personal loans.
2. However, the reliability of returning the money lies only on me the individual.
3. I pay them back using my earnings from my shares of Bitfountain and other sources.

--When we don't have to borrow any money
1. I mark myself of owing the company the same amount of Bitcoins
2. The board members decide an interest rate for my debt, then make the corresponding motion, if not passed, iterate.
3. I pay them back using my earnings from my shares of Bitfountain and other sources.

It's my management fault to keep the rest of the funds within GLBSE and trust it like trusting our company's bank account. The shareholders of ASICMINER should not take the consequences.

friedcat

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Activity: 848

Merit: 1005

Quote from: SebastianJu on October 09, 2012, 06:46:42 AM

Quote from: friedcat on October 08, 2012, 11:46:19 PM

Quote from: punin on October 08, 2012, 03:57:36 PM

Does GLBSE going under affect the speed of the manufacturing process in any way?

Probably not. It may affect a little on the speed of deploying though. But as long as the
chips are out and proved working, private loans will be much easier and safer to get.
If we get enough loans, the process all the way up will not be delayed at all. If not, we
may deploy our products incrementally by using the cash flow from the initial boards to pay
for the rest.

Does that mean sell more shares? I mean there are still available public shares. Otherwise i wouldnt like the idea because it would devalue the value of the already sold shares because more people would have to get their part of the shares.

No. It means that if we will need emergent money, we would rather borrow RMB locally from banks or loaning companies and pay the them principals and interests on time, without giving up shares. When the chips are out, the risk become much lower and borrowing would be better than diluting shares.

Quote from: SebastianJu on October 09, 2012, 06:46:42 AM

Quote from: friedcat on October 08, 2012, 11:46:19 PM

Quote from: punin on October 08, 2012, 03:57:36 PM

What will happen to us shareholders if GLBSE fails to provide information on who's holding stock? Is there a plan B?

This will be a very unfortunate scenario. In this case we will ask for claims of ASICMINER share holdings from shareholders and have to rely on their honesty and other evidences. It's not a good solution as a plan B, but it's the only way we could think of, if we couldn't get the shareholders data out of GLBSE.

I dont think that will be necessary. I mean in the worst case, when nefario really takes the money and runs... he doesnt have a use for the shares. He could give them out for showing good will or when trying to optimize his scamresult could try to blackmail. Give me btc and i give you your details or so. Anyway... in every case the shares could be get... if the blackmailfee wouldnt be too high. Only saying. In fact i doubt that he wants to scam anyway.

Quote from: VeeMiner on October 09, 2012, 02:05:06 AM

now I wish I had a screenshot of my assets Sad

Quote from: burger on October 09, 2012, 05:11:15 AM

I used the GLBSE android app the day before GLBSE closed and all my assets are cached in that app.

Unfortunately that cant work. I mean screenshots can be manipulated easily. The same goes for cached files. If Bitfountain had to go this way it cant possibly work. I cant imagine how it should.
But i dont fear that this is needed anyway.

We are talking about the most extreme case already. In that case we either do nothing or do something imperfect. If with an insignificant probability that the number adds up without an insane result, it would be at least a better solution than doing nothing.

SebastianJu

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Quote from: friedcat on October 08, 2012, 11:46:19 PM

Quote from: punin on October 08, 2012, 03:57:36 PM

Does GLBSE going under affect the speed of the manufacturing process in any way?

Probably not. It may affect a little on the speed of deploying though. But as long as the
chips are out and proved working, private loans will be much easier and safer to get.
If we get enough loans, the process all the way up will not be delayed at all. If not, we
may deploy our products incrementally by using the cash flow from the initial boards to pay
for the rest.

Does that mean sell more shares? I mean there are still available public shares. Otherwise i wouldnt like the idea because it would devalue the value of the already sold shares because more people would have to get their part of the shares.

Quote from: friedcat on October 08, 2012, 11:46:19 PM

Quote from: punin on October 08, 2012, 03:57:36 PM

What will happen to us shareholders if GLBSE fails to provide information on who's holding stock? Is there a plan B?

This will be a very unfortunate scenario. In this case we will ask for claims of ASICMINER share holdings from shareholders and have to rely on their honesty and other evidences. It's not a good solution as a plan B, but it's the only way we could think of, if we couldn't get the shareholders data out of GLBSE.

I dont think that will be necessary. I mean in the worst case, when nefario really takes the money and runs... he doesnt have a use for the shares. He could give them out for showing good will or when trying to optimize his scamresult could try to blackmail. Give me btc and i give you your details or so. Anyway... in every case the shares could be get... if the blackmailfee wouldnt be too high. Only saying. In fact i doubt that he wants to scam anyway.

Quote from: VeeMiner on October 09, 2012, 02:05:06 AM

now I wish I had a screenshot of my assets Sad

Quote from: burger on October 09, 2012, 05:11:15 AM

I used the GLBSE android app the day before GLBSE closed and all my assets are cached in that app.

Unfortunately that cant work. I mean screenshots can be manipulated easily. The same goes for cached files. If Bitfountain had to go this way it cant possibly work. I cant imagine how it should.
But i dont fear that this is needed anyway.

Shadow383

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Quote from: matauc12 on October 09, 2012, 02:37:55 AM

Quote from: VeeMiner on October 09, 2012, 02:05:06 AM

Quote from: friedcat on October 08, 2012, 11:46:19 PM

This will be a very unfortunate scenario. In this case we will ask for claims of ASICMINER share holdings from shareholders and have to rely on their honesty and other evidences. It's not a good solution as a plan B, but it's the only way we could think of, if we couldn't get the shareholders data out of GLBSE.

now I wish I had a screenshot of my assets Sad

Out of all the possible reasons GLBSE was shut down, there isn't really one that comes to mind that would involve the impossibility or unwillingness of nefario to provide those codes (as its no expense to him to provide them or not).

If he's in trouble, there's the possibility that his handing over the codes to unknown people would be against all the AML stuff he'll now have to deal with.

burger

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Quote from: VeeMiner on October 09, 2012, 02:05:06 AM

Quote from: friedcat on October 08, 2012, 11:46:19 PM

This will be a very unfortunate scenario. In this case we will ask for claims of ASICMINER share holdings from shareholders and have to rely on their honesty and other evidences. It's not a good solution as a plan B, but it's the only way we could think of, if we couldn't get the shareholders data out of GLBSE.

now I wish I had a screenshot of my assets Sad

I used the GLBSE android app the day before GLBSE closed and all my assets are cached in that app.

memvola

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Quote from: matauc12 on October 09, 2012, 02:37:55 AM

Out of all the possible reasons GLBSE was shut down, there isn't really one that comes to mind that would involve the impossibility or unwillingness of nefario to provide those codes (as its no expense to him to provide them or not).

Besides, there presumably are older backups. There are plenty of people who would wreak havoc, so I'm assuming there is considerable expense to not resolve this problem rapidly. Codes are an odd way to deal with the situation, I'm guessing a more secure method is being devised. All in all, I'm worried about neither the funds nor the ownership info, but the delays.

matauc12

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Quote from: VeeMiner on October 09, 2012, 02:05:06 AM

Quote from: friedcat on October 08, 2012, 11:46:19 PM

This will be a very unfortunate scenario. In this case we will ask for claims of ASICMINER share holdings from shareholders and have to rely on their honesty and other evidences. It's not a good solution as a plan B, but it's the only way we could think of, if we couldn't get the shareholders data out of GLBSE.

now I wish I had a screenshot of my assets Sad

Out of all the possible reasons GLBSE was shut down, there isn't really one that comes to mind that would involve the impossibility or unwillingness of nefario to provide those codes (as its no expense to him to provide them or not).

Tachikoma

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Quote from: VeeMiner on October 09, 2012, 02:05:06 AM

Quote from: friedcat on October 08, 2012, 11:46:19 PM

This will be a very unfortunate scenario. In this case we will ask for claims of ASICMINER share holdings from shareholders and have to rely on their honesty and other evidences. It's not a good solution as a plan B, but it's the only way we could think of, if we couldn't get the shareholders data out of GLBSE.

now I wish I had a screenshot of my assets Sad

I'm so fucking (pardon my French) happy I actually made one the day before it went down. Although not sure how much good it would be as "evidence" it's something at least.

VeeMiner

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Activity: 752

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bitcoin hodler

Quote from: friedcat on October 08, 2012, 11:46:19 PM

This will be a very unfortunate scenario. In this case we will ask for claims of ASICMINER share holdings from shareholders and have to rely on their honesty and other evidences. It's not a good solution as a plan B, but it's the only way we could think of, if we couldn't get the shareholders data out of GLBSE.

now I wish I had a screenshot of my assets Sad

Topic: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It - page 1313. (Read 3917468 times)