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Topic: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It - page 733. (Read 3917468 times)

legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1000
Varanida : Fair & Transparent Digital Ecosystem
Why do you guys love this pointless guessing game? It will not make you in to a financial analyst, securities analyst nor equity analyst and  definitely not in to a investment analyst. Smiley

To have a better understanding, what is happening, all you need to do, is look at the ASICMINER project plan, compare the actual to base line and see, how the estimated numbers fit with CF, PL statements and voilà...
To figure out ASICMINER's value, you only need to look at their balance sheet and go form there...
+1

then the price was overvalued.
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 500
2014 will be interesting for sure. AM has a headstart on everything + a good reputation compared to other companies ("bitfury" is catching up)
legendary
Activity: 910
Merit: 1000
Quality Printing Services by Federal Reserve Bank
Why do you guys love this pointless guessing game? It will not make you in to a financial analyst, securities analyst nor equity analyst and  definitely not in to a investment analyst. Smiley

To have a better understanding, what is happening, all you need to do, is look at the ASICMINER project plan, compare the actual to base line and see, how the estimated numbers fit with CF, PL statements and voilà...
To figure out ASICMINER's value, you only need to look at their balance sheet and go form there...
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
♫ the AM bear who cares ♫
I don't know where you got those numbers, but if that is an accurate schedule of Asicminer, we are pretty much fucked.
CoinTerra 2 PetaHashes by December, BitMine will bring 4 Petahashes by March, FastHash and KnCMiner who knows how much more.
CoinTerra and KnC are both already going full throttle using 28nm.

IF AsicMiner doesn't put their shit together bringing a couple of petahashes to the network, even 2 BTC per share will be overpriced.
There is no more reason to be holding back, being the most capitalized company in the bitcoin world, they should be leading this fierce competition.

Cointerra - doesn't have anything yet
BitMine - doesn't have anything yet
FastHash - doesn't have anything yet
KnCMiner - doesn't have anything yet

I don't know where is the informatino that CoinTerra and KnC are going full throttle using 28 nm, but I haven't seen proof of such a thing.

Asicminer has already experience with 130 nm chips and the new generation will be produced pretty soon afaik. You should walk before you start running.

Correct me if I'm wrong in anything



There is also Avalon, BitFury and BFL.

Cointerra founders claim they have previous experience in 28nm fab.

That is correct. Ravi Iyengar (CoinTerra lead) was a big shot at Samsung (CPU Lead Architect at Samsung Austin Research Center). The star power is even greater on CoinTerra's advisory board - their chairman, Naveed Sherwani, is also the chair of the Global Semiconductor Association Technical Steering Committee.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7246/the-rush-to-bitcoin-asics-ravi-iyengar-launches-cointerra

http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/08/chip-veterans-form-new-startup-will-sell-high-end-bitcoin-miner-for-16000/

Even more important than the experience is the industry connections. Nothing gets done without knowing the right people.
full member
Activity: 160
Merit: 100
I don't know where you got those numbers, but if that is an accurate schedule of Asicminer, we are pretty much fucked.
CoinTerra 2 PetaHashes by December, BitMine will bring 4 Petahashes by March, FastHash and KnCMiner who knows how much more.
CoinTerra and KnC are both already going full throttle using 28nm.

IF AsicMiner doesn't put their shit together bringing a couple of petahashes to the network, even 2 BTC per share will be overpriced.
There is no more reason to be holding back, being the most capitalized company in the bitcoin world, they should be leading this fierce competition.

Cointerra - doesn't have anything yet
BitMine - doesn't have anything yet
FastHash - doesn't have anything yet
KnCMiner - doesn't have anything yet

I don't know where is the informatino that CoinTerra and KnC are going full throttle using 28 nm, but I haven't seen proof of such a thing.

Asicminer has already experience with 130 nm chips and the new generation will be produced pretty soon afaik. You should walk before you start running.

Correct me if I'm wrong in anything



There is also Avalon, BitFury and BFL.

Cointerra founders claim they have previous experience in 28nm fab.
hero member
Activity: 752
Merit: 500
bitcoin hodler
I don't know where you got those numbers, but if that is an accurate schedule of Asicminer, we are pretty much fucked.
CoinTerra 2 PetaHashes by December, BitMine will bring 4 Petahashes by March, FastHash and KnCMiner who knows how much more.
CoinTerra and KnC are both already going full throttle using 28nm.

IF AsicMiner doesn't put their shit together bringing a couple of petahashes to the network, even 2 BTC per share will be overpriced.
There is no more reason to be holding back, being the most capitalized company in the bitcoin world, they should be leading this fierce competition.

Cointerra - doesn't have anything yet
BitMine - doesn't have anything yet
FastHash - doesn't have anything yet
KnCMiner - doesn't have anything yet

I don't know where is the informatino that CoinTerra and KnC are going full throttle using 28 nm, but I haven't seen proof of such a thing.

Asicminer has already experience with 130 nm chips and the new generation will be produced pretty soon afaik. You should walk before you start running.

Correct me if I'm wrong in anything

donator
Activity: 994
Merit: 1000
IF AsicMiner doesn't put their shit together bringing a couple of petahashes to the network, even 2 btc per share will be expensive.
The only thing which seems to inflate more drastically than hashpower are hashpower expectations. It seems that people look at growth slopes and then extrapolate half a year into the future. Beware that slope changes can have dramatic effect on timing, it's easy to get the expected hashpower wrong by a factor of 2-5 over a period of 6 months just based on slope analysis.

Certainly there will be a need to bring petahashes to the network. That's why one of the most important aspect of suppliers is to optimize production and deployment scalability. Failure at that stage can lead to loosing competitiveness either from a fiscal and/or a reputation point. Just having a fancy chip won't cut it.
donator
Activity: 714
Merit: 510
Preaching the gospel of Satoshi
The "leaked" slides talk of the second large scale deployment (~1 PH/s)

I thought I see the official update saying 200Th in the new few months?

200TH is nothing. At least 1PH makes more sense in the near future.

200TH is being used (deployed, franchised, sold) right now (first two batches were 62TH/s, i believe our current hashrate is around 45TH/s and AM sold around 20TH/s).

Fourth (and probably final) batch of 130nm technology will be ready later (probably start of october?) - 1000TH/s. Then around december/january first batch of 2nd gen chips. (55 or 65nm)

At least that's my view of things. I am not sure of anything 'cause of lack of updates from FC

I don't know where you got those numbers, but if that is an accurate schedule of Asicminer, we are pretty much fucked.
CoinTerra 2 PetaHashes by December, BitMine will bring 4 Petahashes by March, FastHash and KnCMiner who knows how much more.
CoinTerra and KnC are both already going full throttle using 28nm.

IF AsicMiner doesn't put their shit together bringing a couple of petahashes to the network, even 2 BTC per share will be overpriced.
There is no more reason to be holding back, being the most capitalized company in the bitcoin world, they should be leading this fierce competition.
newbie
Activity: 27
Merit: 0
I would like to purchase 1 direct ASICMINER share - PM me for details.
hero member
Activity: 525
Merit: 500
Will price ever rise above 3.5 again? Sad
No one can predict the future, but personally it's worth at least 5.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
The "leaked" slides talk of the second large scale deployment (~1 PH/s)

I thought I see the official update saying 200Th in the new few months?

200TH is nothing. At least 1PH makes more sense in the near future.

200TH is being used (deployed, franchised, sold) right now (first two batches were 62TH/s, i believe our current hashrate is around 45TH/s and AM sold around 20TH/s).

Fourth (and probably final) batch of 130nm technology will be ready later (probably start of october?) - 1000TH/s. Then around december/january first batch of 2nd gen chips. (55 or 65nm)

At least that's my view of things. I am not sure of anything 'cause of lack of updates from FC
full member
Activity: 131
Merit: 100
Will price ever rise above 3.5 again? Sad
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
Bitcoin is new, makes sense to hodl.
The "leaked" slides talk of the second large scale deployment (~1 PH/s)

I thought I see the official update saying 200Th in the new few months?

200TH is nothing. At least 1PH makes more sense in the near future.
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
vycid thank you for helping keep the price down
hero member
Activity: 525
Merit: 500
Under no honest appraisal can his initial expectation/estimate be called "anemic."
Correct.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
♫ the AM bear who cares ♫
None of these statements are incompatible. The market is irrational, despite the actors acting rationally (from their perspectives).

You seem to be talking in circles.

Are you now saying that these unsophisticated AM investors who fail to price in risks (and thereby maximize utility) are acting rationally? Your earlier post strongly implied that they are not.


Those investors are acting rationally, yes. They don't know any better so it isn't irrational. I apologize if I made that unclear somehow.

It is the market that is not rational.

My point is that an expectation of anemic hashrate growth is a lack of belief that the free market can quickly and easily produce the competition that all free-market philosophies depend on.

Here you are being obtuse. Under no honest appraisal can his initial expectation/estimate be called "anemic."

Then you're calling my appraisal dishonest and there's no more discussion to be had. I have defended the reasoning behind my projections much more thoroughly than an exponential trend on an Excel spreadsheet.

By the way, the difficulty rate increase started showing double-exponential curvature about a month ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_exponential_function
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
None of these statements are incompatible. The market is irrational, despite the actors acting rationally (from their perspectives).

You seem to be talking in circles.

Are you now saying that these unsophisticated AM investors, who fail to price in risks (and thereby maximize utility), are acting rationally? Your earlier post strongly implied that they are not.

My point is that an expectation of anemic hashrate growth is a lack of belief that the free market can quickly and easily produce the competition that all free-market philosophies depend on.

Here you are being obtuse. Under no honest appraisal can his initial expectation/estimate be called "anemic."
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
♫ the AM bear who cares ♫
Vycid, on the last page, you mocked a gentlemen for his surprise over the velocity of hashrate increase, framing it as a lack of faith in the free market. Presumably because...

...if every rational actor in the market sees an opportunity for profit, then the growth will necessarily exceed projections; there is a time lag between when the hardware is ordered and when it comes online (very large for preorders). Greed is considered a rational market response.

Then, you assert that, in fact, the market is not behaving rationally (mostly because of nouveau riche AM shareholders, but we'll leave that bit alone).

We are witnessing a strange irrational market that is the product of a non-equilibrium state. It will eventually adjust as more sophisticated actors profit from the irrationality.

So, don't you think you owe the gentleman an apology for maligning his inability to accurately predict hashrate growth in this greedy, but unsophisticated, rational, but probably irrational market environment?

None of these statements are incompatible. The market is irrational, despite the actors acting rationally (from their perspectives).

My point is that an expectation of anemic hashrate growth is a lack of belief that the free market can quickly and easily produce the competition that all free-market philosophies depend on.

I do not believe AM will stop benefiting from its position as a market facilitator, but it is vastly overvalued.
That begs the question of HOW to value a company.

The way I see it is that in an informed and transparent market, valuation is easy and players have a clear understanding on where the fair market value lies. However, in an unpredictable or opaque market, valuation is difficult and players tend to try to "position" themselves, instead of maximizing profits. (e.g. look at the dynamics in the gold market right now).

It it my understanding that the ASICMINER equity derives a majority of its valuation from it's role as a strategic asset class, because of the difficulty in the market to predict the future.

I admit that nobody can value a security with perfect accuracy, and certainly not myself.

My methodology essentially consists of: what is the current shareholder's equity, plus the annualized IRR expectation value - discount rate (the discount varies based on industry) over ten years forward, with appropriate adjustments for certain risk types. Basically, it's a discounted cash flow method. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discounted_cash_flow

Based on my observations that the hashrate growth is being constantly underestimated, it is not difficult to arrive at how AM has become so overvalued - forward projections of revenue are unreasonably optimistic. Furthermore, I see reductions in margin coming much sooner than most. Within a couple of years I suspect we will see margins of 20-30% for companies operating in the cheapest electricity regions.

In light of this, and because AM has little shareholder's equity, I believe it must return its market cap within the next few years to be fairly valued. In combination with more pessimistic growth models for the hashrate, I obviously do not see that happening.

Normally, the expectation value calculation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value) lends itself well to risky companies. For example, I own a significant position in Allied Nevada Mining (http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=ANV) which I mentioned a while back. I believe it is undervalued on shareholder's equity alone, but the real key is the expectation value element. Here is a very simple (and therefore inaccurate) demonstration:

  • We suppose there is a 20% chance that gold goes below ANV's cost per ounce at ~$1250, and ANV goes out of business;
  • a 70% chance that gold stays around ~$1400/oz, and ANV's price level does not change because ANV is fairly valued at a P/E of ~10;
  • and a 10% chance that gold returns to $2000/oz, and ANV quadruples in price based on the enormous profits per ounce.

If for ease of calculation we arbitrarily set the price level with a current P/E of 10 at $5/share (this is pretty close to the actual one), then our expectation value is (0.2 * 0 + 0.7 * 5 + 0.2 * 25) = $8.50/share. Therefore we consider ANV undervalued.

(A more sophisticated approach uses the premiums on gold options to calculate the odds. The P/E is easy to obtain for a given gold price based on published figures for costs per ounce and capacity.)

So why can't I apply this thinking to AM? Because the underlying "commodity" for AM (the Bitcoin) is a currency denominated in BTC. By contrast ANV is denominated in dollars, not in ounces of gold. The opportunity cost of buying AM is Bitcoin-denominated, so even if bitcoin goes to $10,000/BTC and AM maintains 10% of the hashrate, you don't make much profit over BTC.

I am making no commentary on the valuation of BTC here. I do not know. But AM is overvalued.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
Vycid, on the last page, you mocked a gentlemen for his surprise over the velocity of hashrate increase, framing it as a lack of faith in the free market. Presumably because...

...if every rational actor in the market sees an opportunity for profit, then the growth will necessarily exceed projections; there is a time lag between when the hardware is ordered and when it comes online (very large for preorders). Greed is considered a rational market response.

Then, you assert that, in fact, the market is not behaving rationally (mostly because of nouveau riche AM shareholders, but we'll leave that bit alone).

We are witnessing a strange irrational market that is the product of a non-equilibrium state. It will eventually adjust as more sophisticated actors profit from the irrationality.

So, don't you think you owe the gentleman an apology for maligning his inability to accurately predict hashrate growth in this greedy, but unsophisticated, rational, but probably irrational market environment?
donator
Activity: 994
Merit: 1000
I do not believe AM will stop benefiting from its position as a market facilitator, but it is vastly overvalued.
That begs the question of HOW to value a company.

The way I see it is that in an informed and transparent market, valuation is easy and players have a clear understanding on where the fair market value lies. However, in an unpredictable or opaque market, valuation is difficult and players tend to try to "position" themselves, instead of maximizing profits. (e.g. look at the dynamics in the gold market right now).

It it my understanding that the ASICMINER equity derives a majority of its valuation from it's role as a strategic asset class, because of the difficulty in the market to predict the future.
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