Author

Topic: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It - page 734. (Read 3917468 times)

sr. member
Activity: 362
Merit: 250
Furthermore, there is a huge difference in electricity prices by region, something FC has not acted to take advantage of, but other actors have. This will encourage the overshoot scenario (in profit terms) for those individuals who have not exploited cheaper regions.

Just one comment in regards to the electricity prices: it won't be much of a factor for a little while still, it is more profitable to focus on pumping out hardware at the moment than worrying about electricity costs.

If you do the math, the electricity bill for AM hardware to produce 1 BTC is about $1.32. So "strategic positioning" with respect to power prices will come into play eventually, but it makes sense to focus on other areas first.

In other words, hashing with AM will have a positive marginal cost until the network difficulty is about 100x what it is today.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 501
Just did my second report here.

thanks for your efforts.
after quarrelling about my AM investment for last two weeks it felt good to read an objective summary which recalls the longterm perspective.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100

In traditional equity markets,

.. inexpensive to very valuable.
Are you a few dollars short of a bitcoin?
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
♫ the AM bear who cares ♫
The larger the growth rate, and the larger the time lag between the investment in growth and the return on that growth (relative to the growth rate), naturally the larger the overshoot.
... and we are headed for overshoot.
There will likely be an overshoot - but only if price levels grow slower than hashrate. One scenario where an overshoot may be avoided is when the friction to scale is sufficiently large and/or jurisdictions interfere with the deployment or the sale of new hardware. Companies who are able to minimize this friction will be the ones who benefit the most from the network growth.

Since BTC mining is an "embarrassingly parallel" computational problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embarrassingly_parallel), and since the hardware manufacturing requirements for miners pale in comparison to the size of the market for traditional electronic devices, I cannot anticipate much friction to scale. Perhaps single entities - like AM or ActiveMining or whatever - will be unable to scale because of logistical reasons, but the thousands of individuals buying Baby Jets or Bitfury boards will have no trouble.

Furthermore, there is a huge difference in electricity prices by region, something FC has not acted to take advantage of, but other actors have. This will encourage the overshoot scenario (in profit terms) for those individuals who have not exploited cheaper regions.

I agree that there is the possibility of regulatory interference, but predicting that is nigh impossible, and I seriously doubt a single region's regulation can stop this train.

In industry, we deal with overshoot in situations where the setpoint (difficulty) is changing with cascaded PID controllers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller). That produces a damped scenario. The controls in the ASIC market (rational actors) are equivalent to a single PID controller, and we are headed for overshoot.
I disagree. I think there is solid proof out there that a great portion of the mining community has different assumptions about the market - ranging from expert to naive, from optimistic to pessimistic. This causes the mining investments to more or less experience an expectation value, i.e. the smart money is moving in or out first in the right direction.

Supplier companies like ASICMINER are facilitators in the market and just need to make sure that
a) they are a competitive option for getting invested in mining
b) survive times of depression in mining (hibernation ability), e.g. caused by the bitcoin price to collapse below production costs

I see a lot of companies out there striving for a). It will be interesting to see how many companies are prepared for b).

This market is irrational and I do not believe it reaches reasonable equilibrium expectation values. Here is why:

In traditional equity markets, the "expert investors" control a much larger portion of the equity, because they have been previously successful and profited, whereas the novices tend to lose money and do not exert as much force.

However, BTC is an immature currency, and AM shares have exploded from very inexpensive to very valuable. Many of the people who bought in at AM's IPO (or early in the run-up) were unsophisticated. Now they control a large amount of equity and fail to price things in - especially because they are going to be in an extremely optimistic mindset after such a large return on their investments. We are witnessing a strange irrational market that is the product of a non-equilibrium state. It will eventually adjust as more sophisticated actors profit from the irrationality.

I do not believe AM will stop benefiting from its position as a market facilitator, but it is vastly overvalued.
donator
Activity: 994
Merit: 1000
The larger the growth rate, and the larger the time lag between the investment in growth and the return on that growth (relative to the growth rate), naturally the larger the overshoot.
... and we are headed for overshoot.
There will likely be an overshoot - but only if price levels grow slower than hashrate. One scenario where an overshoot may be avoided is when the friction to scale is sufficiently large and/or jurisdictions interfere with the deployment or the sale of new hardware. Companies who are able to minimize this friction will be the ones who benefit the most from the network growth.

In industry, we deal with overshoot in situations where the setpoint (difficulty) is changing with cascaded PID controllers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller). That produces a damped scenario. The controls in the ASIC market (rational actors) are equivalent to a single PID controller, and we are headed for overshoot.
I disagree. I think there is solid proof out there that a great portion of the mining community has different assumptions about the market - ranging from expert to naive, from optimistic to pessimistic. This causes the mining investments to more or less experience an expectation value, i.e. the smart money is moving in or out first in the right direction.

Supplier companies like ASICMINER are facilitators in the market and just need to make sure that
a) they are a competitive option for getting invested in mining
b) survive times of depression in mining (hibernation ability), e.g. caused by the bitcoin price to collapse below production costs

I see a lot of companies out there striving for a). It will be interesting to see how many companies are prepared for b).
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
♫ the AM bear who cares ♫
Holy cat, I don't believe my own calculations!  But then I didn't believe them in July either, and the growth just keeps accelerating...
Calculate again (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmoid_function). The trick is to know where you are in the curve (hint: the asymptotic level depends on bitcoin production costs). Expect a conversion from exponential into linear growth after we cross 1-2 PH, given current price levels. (bitcoin price increases will move the asymptotic line and cause bitcoins to rotate back into mining investments, delaying the exponential to linear growth conversion).

Undamped and underdamped systems do not follow sigmoidal growth trajectories.

There is a huge impetus to increase hashrate, because the yearly block rewards are worth something like 100M USD. In the short run, models of the increase in hash power may cause the rational observer to consider mining hardware a good investment. The problem is, if every rational actor in the market sees an opportunity for profit, then the growth will necessarily exceed projections; there is a time lag between when the hardware is ordered and when it comes online (very large for preorders). Greed is considered a rational market response.

Here is a simple mathematical representation of overshoot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sine_integral.svg

The larger the growth rate, and the larger the time lag between the investment in growth and the return on that growth (relative to the growth rate), naturally the larger the overshoot.

This is the core of my bearish outlook on any mining security, as anyone who has been paying attention already knows.

The simplest example of overshoot in nature I can provide is the "rabbit example". Suppose you have rabbits in an ecosystem, and their population is stable over time, living in healthy balance with their food supply and their predators.

Suddenly, a plague wipes out their predators, which was previously the downward force on their population (here, the BTC/USD price exploded alongside the ASIC revolution). What happens, of course? The rabbits reproduce exponentially, vastly exceeding the carrying capacity of their environment - food (block rewards). Then, after all of these rabbits reach maturity (hardware delivery), starvation occurs (failure to meet ROI).

In industry, we deal with overshoot in situations where the setpoint (difficulty) is changing with cascaded PID controllers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller). That produces a damped scenario. The controls in the ASIC market (rational actors) are equivalent to a single PID controller, and we are headed for overshoot.
donator
Activity: 994
Merit: 1000
Holy cat, I don't believe my own calculations!  But then I didn't believe them in July either, and the growth just keeps accelerating...
Calculate again (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmoid_function). The trick is to know where you are in the curve (hint: the asymptotic level depends on bitcoin production costs). Expect a conversion from exponential into linear growth after we cross 1-2 PH, given current price levels. (bitcoin price increases will move the asymptotic line and cause bitcoins to rotate back into mining investments, delaying the exponential to linear growth conversion).
newbie
Activity: 10
Merit: 0
For guys that believe in Bitcoin, you have surprisingly little faith in the free market.
What? Huh

The capability of the competition to rapidly assemble and bring products to market has been a much-maligned topic in this thread in the past few months. The "everyone else is incompetent" mindset flies in the face of free market theories, which suggests that competent competition will arrive in any sector where there is profit to be made.

Clearly the evidence of competent competition is here and the opinion has shifted. But your surprise remains - did you really think this opportunity for profit wasn't going to get exploited? That isn't a very free-market way of thinking.

It seems to me that even free market people couldn't predict just how fast the network would grow. When even staunch supporters are proven to be too conservative, I think that shows just how powerful a free market is. And yes, it is surprising when the market out performs the expectations of pretty much everyone.
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
Just did my second report here.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
♫ the AM bear who cares ♫
For guys that believe in Bitcoin, you have surprisingly little faith in the free market.
What? Huh

The capability of the competition to rapidly assemble and bring products to market has been a much-maligned topic in this thread in the past few months. The "everyone else is incompetent" mindset flies in the face of free market theories, which suggests that competent competition will arrive in any sector where there is profit to be made.

Clearly the evidence of competent competition is here and the opinion has shifted. But your surprise remains - did you really think this opportunity for profit wasn't going to get exploited? That isn't a very free-market way of thinking.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
♫ the AM bear who cares ♫
If you think the network will reach 1 Petahash before the end of the year, then you're too naive.  The Petahash is quite likely to come even before October!  And by the end of 2013 it will likely go far beyond 2 PH, maybe even approach 3 PH.

Looks like I was too conservative! Shocked
We are going to hit 1PH way before October...  Like, within the next couple of weeks.
And then if the daily growth is kept around 2.5%, then we'll see 2PH in October, 4PH in November, 8PH in December and, possibly... 10PH in the last days of 2013.
Holy cat, I don't believe my own calculations!  But then I didn't believe them in July either, and the growth just keeps accelerating...



For guys that believe in Bitcoin, you have surprisingly little faith in the free market.
full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 100
If you think the network will reach 1 Petahash before the end of the year, then you're too naive.  The Petahash is quite likely to come even before October!  And by the end of 2013 it will likely go far beyond 2 PH, maybe even approach 3 PH.

Looks like I was too conservative! Shocked
We are going to hit 1PH way before October...  Like, within the next couple of weeks.
And then if the daily growth is kept around 2.5%, then we'll see 2PH in October, 4PH in November, 8PH in December and, possibly... 10PH in the last days of 2013.
Holy cat, I don't believe my own calculations!  But then I didn't believe them in July either, and the growth just keeps accelerating...

sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
Are we back or have we been getting lucky?   4 out of the last 8 blocks

probably just luck, it was shitty last 24 hours
FNG
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Are we back or have we been getting lucky?   4 out of the last 8 blocks
member
Activity: 91
Merit: 10
Keep in mind BitFunder and whoever is managing the PT now has been very unresponsive, late on dividends, etc.

The price difference isn't such a random thing.

would still be worth it to buy at 1.8!! and transfer out to direct shares

You can transfer out to direct shares only if you have at least 250 shares on the Bitfunder.
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 500
Keep in mind BitFunder and whoever is managing the PT now has been very unresponsive, late on dividends, etc.

The price difference isn't such a random thing.

would still be worth it to buy at 1.8!! and transfer out to direct shares
donator
Activity: 1064
Merit: 1000
Keep in mind BitFunder and whoever is managing the PT now has been very unresponsive, late on dividends, etc.

The price difference isn't such a random thing.
I am usually quite responsive Smiley
The PT has now been handed over to Ukyo.
Hopefully he will be able to offer faster dividends and better transfers in and out.
//DeaDTerra
full member
Activity: 194
Merit: 100
Bitfunder AM @ BTC1.8  Shocked

DAMMIT I hate missing stuff like that.  Whatever the arguments about whether AM was ever worth 5 BTC, to my mind, it's clearly worth in excess of 1.8.
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 500
Bitfunder AM @ BTC1.8  Shocked

That was a big sell. Back up to 2.0 now.
Yep, and excellent buying at that price.

1.8 is a steal - anyone offering direct shares at that price now?
hero member
Activity: 525
Merit: 500
Bitfunder AM @ BTC1.8  Shocked

That was a big sell. Back up to 2.0 now.
Yep, and excellent buying at that price.
Jump to: