ASICMiner USB group buy- orders closed, pay for extra! - page 104.

twobits

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Quote from: arklan on May 07, 2013, 11:28:34 PM

i am beginning to regret not thinking this all out more clearly (regarding escrow) from the get go... ugh.

also, i heard from one of the blade buyers. apparently there were no customs fees.

Customs is a weird thing. I have gotten many things with no fees. Seems at least one Chinese person in my household, gets a lot of 'gifts' from Hong Kong lately. These also have had no fees. I had one time they insisted on $30 for a $10 battery. A shipment of a single item gets a lot less attention then a bulk shipment does. I do hope we get no fees, but I would not count on it. So, fingers crossed but think about what to do if you do get hit with customs fees I guess?

tvbcof

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Quote from: twobits on May 07, 2013, 11:21:22 PM

Quote from: tvbcof on May 07, 2013, 11:16:24 PM

I'm covering my share. It was pretty clear how things worked when I signed up and I was happy enough with it. If the rules have changed on me and I didn't like it I'd just bail right now before forking over any funds. I think I noticed that John K is also participating in some of the tactical and communication issues (by his own graces?) and it has value to me to have someone who is fluent in Chinese helping out here.

I have household members who are fluent in a few Chinese dialects. I can not see any advantage to having access to this resource given the entire deal is being done in English. Why do you have to reach so far to try and justify an escrow fee that is not escrow.

Also, it was clear when I signed up as well. So the rules that different people consider the original seem to be different for different people. So yes, if they get changed back to the original offer and you don't like it you would bail. Got it.

I cannot honestly say that I studied the fine print at the time I signed up. But I also don't give a shit. I've hardly put my financial statement at risk fucking around with what will very likely end up being a laughably overpriced trinket within a few months due to either a rise in BTC values or competition from more powerful devices. I stated '2.1-ish BTC' to allow for some flexibility.

I figured that John K is going to send the funds to ~friedcat and ~arklan won't touch them. That ~friedcat and John K could communicate about issues in their mother tongue may help get over shipping and customs stuff, or might provide an opportunity for collusion. That John K has some credibility makes the second option less likely.

arklan

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i am beginning to regret not thinking this all out more clearly (regarding escrow) from the get go... ugh.

also, i heard from one of the blade buyers. apparently there were no customs fees.

twobits

sr. member

Activity: 574

Merit: 250

Quote from: tvbcof on May 07, 2013, 11:16:24 PM

Quote from: twobits on May 07, 2013, 11:08:59 PM

Quote from: tvbcof on May 07, 2013, 10:39:25 PM

John K has put a huge amount of effort into this forum and has demonstrated good judgement. Also, he seems to have taken the job of cross-referencing the ~arklan seriously and done good work. 12 BTC is fine with me. I'm paying for his reputation more than anything.

If you are covering it for us, then great. I do think it should be clear to everyone that whatever the service is, it is not really escrowed in the traditional sense. Given some peoples replies to others questions, I am not sure all are clear on this.

I'm covering my share. It was pretty clear how things worked when I signed up and I was happy enough with it. If the rules have changed on me and I didn't like it I'd just bail right now before forking over any funds. I think I noticed that John K is also participating in some of the tactical and communication issues (by his own graces?) and it has value to me to have someone who is fluent in Chinese helping out here.

If you just meant your share I would have thought you would have said you have no issue with a 2% fee. You said you have no issue with 12 btc, so it seemed you would be fine covering that.

I have household members who are fluent in a few Chinese dialects. I can not see any advantage to having access to this resource given the entire deal is being done in English. Why do you have to reach so far to try and justify an escrow fee that is not escrow.

Also, it was clear when I signed up as well. At that time no escrow was mentioned in the OP. So the rules that different people consider the original seem to be different for different people. So yes, if they get changed back to the original offer and you don't like it you would bail. Got it.

arklan

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yea, USPS will be the carrier.

i pm'd friedcat, and he has said we can pay anytime.

as to a hard stop: 48 hours from now, i will stop accepting orders. 7 days from then, payments to escrow will be expected to be completed and all money gathered.

so we'll send payment to friedcat in 9 days, basically.

i'll update the OP accordingly.

tvbcof

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Activity: 4690

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Quote from: twobits on May 07, 2013, 11:08:59 PM

Quote from: tvbcof on May 07, 2013, 10:39:25 PM

John K has put a huge amount of effort into this forum and has demonstrated good judgement. Also, he seems to have taken the job of cross-referencing the ~arklan seriously and done good work. 12 BTC is fine with me. I'm paying for his reputation more than anything.

If you are covering it for us, then great. I do think it should be clear to everyone that whatever the service is, it is not really escrowed in the traditional sense. Given some peoples replies to others questions, I am not sure all are clear on this.

I'm covering my share. It was pretty clear how things worked when I signed up and I was happy enough with it. If the rules have changed on me and I didn't like it I'd just bail right now before forking over any funds. I think I noticed that John K is also participating in some of the tactical and communication issues (by his own graces?) and it has value to me to have someone who is fluent in Chinese helping out here.

twobits

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Activity: 574

Merit: 250

Quote from: logicbomb666 on May 07, 2013, 10:54:53 PM

I am aware of the gap of escrow protection in this group buy, but am still fine with everything that has already been agreed on. I think it would be more of a negative impact if we started changing the agreement. I vote against changing the agreement in any way, I vote for keeping everything the same to keep things simple.

If you vote against changing it that would be a vote against the escrow right? As that was a change from when many of us first posted in.

Quote

Now that this group buy has reached >300 : I think it would be wise to set a hard stop date. For example, We will allow orders to continue until XX/XX/XXX @ XX:XXam/pm. After this, no more orders will be accepted for this group buy. If there is no stop date, there will be orders coming in forever. How to determine that stop date? I have no idea.

Also need to set a hard stop date on when funds should be cleared to escrow, anything after shall be refunded and kicked out of this group buy.

Also to consider - Must get certain % over 300 to account for anybody that is unable or chooses not to send funds to escrow in time.

Are they even taking orders yet for these? Guess the stop date should be as soon as we can place the actual order and get in the queue for these.

PeZ

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Quote from: arklan on May 07, 2013, 10:44:13 PM

also, does anyone have any ideas on estimating the potential customs charges? i tihkn it's dependant entirely on the declared value and what it's declared as, both things we can only guess. hmm. i'll ask the blade buyers.

Can't use UPS for Canada - they have heavy customs charges.

twobits

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Quote from: tvbcof on May 07, 2013, 10:39:25 PM

John K has put a huge amount of effort into this forum and has demonstrated good judgement. Also, he seems to have taken the job of cross-referencing the ~arklan seriously and done good work. 12 BTC is fine with me. I'm paying for his reputation more than anything.

If you are covering it for us, then great. I do think it should be clear to everyone that whatever the service is, it is not really escrowed in the traditional sense. Given some peoples replies to others questions, I am not sure all are clear on this.

Quote

~arklan has been active and professional so far. $700-ish for all this work and the shipping hassles and all that seem like, if anything, to little to me. If ~arklan wishes to somehow discount bulk shipments for those who ordered multiple pieces, that seem fair.

I actually agree with you. My issue is more that the way it came about was a fee to insure delivery. It does no such thing, and this should be made a bit clearer.

twobits

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Quote from: aspeer on May 07, 2013, 10:54:08 PM

usps works for me

i would recommend not changing terms as well and just retaining the escrow as it was laid out.

The change to escrow was a change in terms at least from when the first of us bid in.

logicbomb666

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Activity: 260

Merit: 250

I am aware of the gap of escrow protection in this group buy, but am still fine with everything that has already been agreed on. I think it would be more of a negative impact if we started changing the agreement. I vote against changing the agreement in any way, I vote for keeping everything the same to keep things simple.

Now that this group buy has reached >300 : I think it would be wise to set a hard stop date. For example, We will allow orders to continue until XX/XX/XXX @ XX:XXam/pm. After this, no more orders will be accepted for this group buy. If there is no stop date, there will be orders coming in forever. How to determine that stop date? I have no idea.

Also need to set a hard stop date on when funds should be cleared to escrow, anything after shall be refunded and kicked out of this group buy.

Also to consider - Must get certain % over 300 to account for anybody that is unable or chooses not to send funds to escrow in time.

aspeer

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Activity: 102

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usps works for me

i would recommend not changing terms as well and just retaining the escrow as it was laid out.

arklan

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so i just did some price guessing for shipping - sending one 5 ounce package priority mail via the post office isn't even 3 dollars. where as UPS was more like 18. ...it's been a while since i've mailed a package... yeesh. postal service it is, unless someone has a very good reason as to why not. still insured, with tracking, of course.

also, does anyone have any ideas on estimating the potential customs charges? i tihkn it's dependant entirely on the declared value and what it's declared as, both things we can only guess. hmm. i'll ask the blade buyers.

AForceNinja

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Quote from: arklan on May 07, 2013, 10:22:27 PM

what are group thoughts on shipping? insurance and tracking are obviously something i expect to include. but carrier? i presonally like UPS or USPS. i'm looking into what the cost would be per unit, based on a guess at weight. i'll get that posted here later.

I would prefer USPS, as I live in a rural area in Canada, UPS would be difficult.

Xian01

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Christian Antkow

I vote we keep with the current escrow plan, and use those funds to handle customs costs if necessary.

Lets get this order rolling !

tvbcof

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John K has put a huge amount of effort into this forum and has demonstrated good judgement. Also, he seems to have taken the job of cross-referencing the ~arklan seriously and done good work. 12 BTC is fine with me. I'm paying for his reputation more than anything.

~arklan has been active and professional so far. $700-ish for all this work and the shipping hassles and all that seem like, if anything, to little to me. If ~arklan wishes to somehow discount bulk shipments for those who ordered multiple pieces, that seem fair.

I have no experience with a task like these guys are undertaking, but I bet it would be quite easy to under-estimate the amount of work. Especially if they do a good job of dealing with the various things that will likely come up.

twobits

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Quote from: fpgaminer on May 07, 2013, 10:35:54 PM

Quote

Especially since it really prevents none of the risk. I propose we skip this escrow.

John is holding arklan's verified identity in escrow. That has value if the fan muck spreads. I couldn't guess as to how much John should be paid for that kind of service, but I think it is needed regardless.

He had already offered to give this out to those who asked. It would be worth even more to me if I had it as well. The escrow has zero value in ensuring us we get the item vs not having it, if the OP had the intent to not deliver.

fpgaminer

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Quote

Especially since it really prevents none of the risk. I propose we skip this escrow.

John is holding arklan's verified identity in escrow. That has value if the fan muck spreads. I couldn't guess as to how much John should be paid for that kind of service, but I think it is needed regardless.

arklan

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i haven't the slightest clue how customs would treat this sort of thing coming in from china, nor how ASICMINER will label it. thus, planning the potential customs cost in is something haven't a clue how to do.

as to the reward part - you're right, it is wonky.

escrow - obviously my identity verification is already in john's hands, so, as you say, the point of the escrow may be ...less. but obviously, i'm not the one to call for dropping it. not my place. i leave it to you guys to discuss. if necessary i'll send out pm's asking for opinion on the subject.

hmm. maybe, since everyones built the escrow fee into their plan as is, if we decide to drop it, we leave the price where it's at in case of customs fees? then if any of that 2% remains i could send it back perhaps? the customs thing really throws a wrench in, since i don't know how to estimate the cost of it.

twobits

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Quote from: oaxaca on May 05, 2013, 02:36:25 PM

OK,

I'm not trying to be a wet blanket or anything. I'm just trying to get it straight.

John gets 12 BTC for "assuming the risk of holding the escrowed Bitcoins".

(Seems like a lot)

Especially since it really prevents none of the risk. I propose we skip this escrow.

Quote

Arklan gets 6 BTC (in kind) for assembling and posting something like 50 packages.

(Seems like a hell of an hourly wage)

Funny things was the person who proposed this, proposed it to be given after the units got shipped. I already posted how that fails. Now it is even odder, that a payment that was supposed to be given after proof of shipping of the individual units, somehow is able to be used ahead of time to take the payment in units of the device?

Quote

There is a fee of .05 BTC each to cover shipping.

(Seems low to me, but ...)

Again, nothing personal against anybody.

Yep... and packaging.

Also, I am not sure anyone has mentioned the elephants in the room. Firstly I am guessing there is going to be customs fees charged on these. Those are going to need to be added in or the OP is going to take a loss on those. Secondly, I am guessing these devices are not fcc certificated or anything else. This gives us a risk of seizure.

Given that we still have these very real risks, I propose that we drop the meaningless escrow and the fees it adds, and have a plan to deal with the other contingencies in place as well.

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