[Aug 2022] Mempool empty! Use this opportunity to Consolidate your small inputs! - page 13.

tranthidung

legendary

Activity: 2520

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Farewell o_e_l_e_o

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on May 20, 2024, 11:28:22 AM

Bitcoin will survive, just not as magic Internet currency in the base layer. It might sound like too-Saylor, but it is true: the base layer is the asset layer. The bet is to produce a working layer on top of that base. A second layer like lightning is what I'd rather recognize as a "transaction layer". Lightning payments fit better the definition of a "transaction", because you'd expect from a transaction to complete instantly, very inexpensively and more importantly: to be feasible to make nearly infinite (small) transactions.

The biggest disadvantage and also barrier of Lightning Network is, people have to make an on-chain transaction to open their Lightning Network channel and start using Lightning Network for "small" transactions. The prerequisite step is not too attractive for people who simply want to save transaction fee at beginning and for people who don't usually make transactions. That first transaction is actually expensive if Bitcoin mempools are congested.

If people have to surpass this "barrier" by using centralized platforms that support Lightning Network, it sucks because they will have to give up control on their coins. These platforms might only broadcast transactions through Lightning Network sparsely within a day, it sucks again, it's not smooth experience.

BlackHatCoiner

legendary

Activity: 1512

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: LoyceV on May 20, 2024, 11:08:33 AM

And can you really call someone "a user" if he can't actually use it?

Bitcoin will survive, just not as magic Internet currency in the base layer. It might sound like too-Saylor, but it is true: the base layer is the asset layer. The bet is to produce a working layer on top of that base. A second layer like lightning is what I'd rather recognize as a "transaction layer". Lightning payments fit better the definition of a "transaction", because you'd expect from a transaction to complete instantly, very inexpensively and more importantly: to be feasible to make nearly infinite (small) transactions.

I'm absolutely not saying that lightning is ideal, not even working great. It's just an attempt to implement one such layer. It's good that we acknowledge that such layer is needed. I see a lot of altcoiners being proponents of big block sizes, and that this is the solution to sustainability and cheap fees, which is evidently false.

To answer your question, you can call someone a user, as long as they use bitcoin. Be it on the base layer, or not. The bet is to develop second layers, and depend on them when we want financial transactions.

Quote from: stompix on May 20, 2024, 11:17:37 AM

The same way Toyota does versus Ferrari, you sell 10 millions cars instead of 100, in bigger ~~batches~~..you know what I mean

If you increase the block size limit (which is what I presume you mean), you're destroying the fee market competition, and you're making less money as a miner. So, it's worse.

stompix

legendary

Activity: 2912

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Blackjack.fun

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on May 20, 2024, 10:21:02 AM

Honest question. I know you're a miner. How do you expect for the network to survive if the average transaction fee is not extremely expensive in the future?

The same way Toyota does versus Ferrari, you sell 10 millions cars instead of 100, in bigger ~~batches~~..you know what I mean Wink

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on May 20, 2024, 10:21:02 AM

What's the point of clogging up the network for a day? You'll be spending around a million dollars to force people rise their fee rates. So what? And how long can you retain this attack? If it's money waste, then it can't operate forever. There has to be profit for this to realistically occur.

Yup, like going long with 10x leverage on Solana Wink

Quote from: LoyceV on May 20, 2024, 11:08:33 AM

Allow me to inverse the question: How do you expect Bitcoin to survive if the average transaction fee is extremely expensive in the future?

Once the block reward is gone, simply, it won't! Grin

With fees not making a dent in the reward, the security of the network halves every for year compared to the sums of money it guards, fast forward 10 times in the future and you have Fort Knox guarded by an obese 90 yo armed with a pack of tic tacs.

LoyceV

legendary

Activity: 3290

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Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on May 20, 2024, 10:21:02 AM

How do you expect for the network to survive if the average transaction fee is not extremely expensive in the future?

Allow me to inverse the question: How do you expect Bitcoin to survive if the average transaction fee is extremely expensive in the future?

I admit, it's a bit of a rhetorical question. I don't expect Bitcoin to disappear because of fees, but the average Bitcoin user won't be able to make a transaction. And can you really call someone "a user" if he can't actually use it?

BlackHatCoiner

legendary

Activity: 1512

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: stompix on May 20, 2024, 07:03:41 AM

Oh, it might look for us as much, but when you take into consideration how many we are in this world and how some spend money it becomes peanuts.

What's the point of clogging up the network for a day? You'll be spending around a million dollars to force people rise their fee rates. So what? And how long can you retain this attack? If it's money waste, then it can't operate forever. There has to be profit for this to realistically occur.

Quote from: stompix on May 20, 2024, 07:03:41 AM

And even one block a day, that's close to 1% of the capacity, imagine the headlines and how much Bitcoiners would laugh if a kid were able to cut 5% of Visa capacity in day with $30k.

Honest question. I know you're a miner. How do you expect for the network to survive if the average transaction fee is not extremely expensive in the future? Comparing Visa with Bitcoin is like comparing apples with spacecrafts.

stompix

legendary

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Blackjack.fun

Quote from: LoyceV on May 20, 2024, 01:02:50 AM

I don't think that's how it works: the highest paying transactions in a block are much more expensive to replace than the average. To get the entire block, you must outbid the highest fee.

Pools can easily choose what transactions they want to include based on their requirements if there is enough demand for those and they see they can have either a full block at 10sat/vb or 99% of it at 1sat/vb and one tx at 100sat/vb they can choose the largest one, plus with income this low no pool will refuse and extra 5k on the block with a behind the curtain deal, remember that these are extra money they will not pay the miners for it Wink

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on May 19, 2024, 01:06:02 PM

$6k isn't nothing. It's $6k for just 10 minutes. That's $864k for one day with clogged up network, and that's without taking into consideration the fact that some people will simply choose to pay more than the spammer.

Oh, it might look for us as much, but when you take into consideration how many we are in this world and how some spend money it becomes peanuts. Ordinals have in the first wave managed to keep fees above 30sat/vb for 4 months, that's two years of tx at 5sat/vb and let's not forget that once the fees go down there are also genuine transactions and consolidations happening.

And even one block a day, that's close to 1% of the capacity, imagine the headlines and how much Bitcoiners would laugh if a kid were able to cut 5% of Visa capacity in day with $30k. Wink

LoyceV

legendary

Activity: 3290

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Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

Quote from: stompix on May 19, 2024, 07:55:05 AM

I wonder how much better it can get, current block rewards are:
Total fees ‎0.087 BTC $5,853
this means anyone willing to pay $6k to have his own block all by himself can do so

I don't think that's how it works: the highest paying transactions in a block are much more expensive to replace than the average. To get the entire block, you must outbid the highest fee.

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on May 19, 2024, 01:06:02 PM

Quote from: stompix on May 19, 2024, 07:55:05 AM

Somebody moving his inscriptions
It's those things:

Got it. So trash.

Yep. Create dust, move dust. Madness.

BlackHatCoiner

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 7340

Farewell, Leo

Quote from: stompix on May 19, 2024, 07:55:05 AM

Somebody moving his inscriptions
It's those things:

Got it. So trash.

Quote from: stompix on May 19, 2024, 07:55:05 AM

this means anyone willing to pay $6k to have his own block all by himself can do so, if we go even lower at 4 cents it's half of that, and we know there are guys willing to pay 2 million for a satoshi...

Two things:

If someone broadcasts 4 MB with the highest priority, it doesn't mean they are immediately mined. Such action would simply abruptly rise the high priority fee rate.
$6k isn't nothing. It's $6k for just 10 minutes. That's $864k for one day with clogged up network, and that's without taking into consideration the fact that some people will simply choose to pay more than the spammer.

stompix

legendary

Activity: 2912

Merit: 6403

Blackjack.fun

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on May 19, 2024, 07:27:18 AM

I stumbled across this transaction: fed7f8dec7952a16c2130c882bd0b01678eef967d32542e6d551ea0af64410c4. Does anyone know what's that? I have never seen it before. Seems like a bad coinjoin with dust amounts and address reuse. It isn't Ordinals, as far as I can see. It's neither an experimental Tapscript, just an ordinary Segwit, which spends 451 inputs and creates 451 outputs with approximately the same values.

Somebody moving his inscriptions
It's those things:
https://www.ord.io/bc1qu2em6g2zaeqkluvxvjpa7zvesafu44u7ug2un0

Quote from: LoyceV on May 19, 2024, 01:34:07 AM

Bump: fees are a bit better again

I wonder how much better it can get, current block rewards are:
Total fees ‎0.087 BTC $5,853
this means anyone willing to pay $6k to have his own block all by himself can do so, if we go even lower at 4 cents it's half of that, and we know there are guys willing to pay 2 million for a satoshi...

BlackHatCoiner

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 7340

Farewell, Leo

You can have high priority with just 8 sat/vb, so better consolidate or make important trades today.

I stumbled across this transaction: fed7f8dec7952a16c2130c882bd0b01678eef967d32542e6d551ea0af64410c4. Does anyone know what's that? I have never seen it before. Seems like a bad coinjoin with dust amounts and address reuse. It isn't Ordinals, as far as I can see. It's neither an experimental Tapscript, just an ordinary Segwit, which spends 451 inputs and creates 451 outputs with approximately the same values.

LoyceV

legendary

Activity: 3290

Merit: 16489

Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

Bump: fees are a bit better again

philipma1957

legendary

Activity: 4382

Merit: 9330

'The right to privacy matters'

Quote from: Synchronice on May 12, 2024, 09:23:50 AM

There is an interesting thing that happened 23 days ago. Guys, as you know, when someone pays enormously high fees, I mean some Bitcoins, they usually contact the miner who included this transaction in their block and ask them for refunds. The fee that many miners paid in this block are definitely out of this world, one miner paid up to 6.72 BTC, there are many others who paid up to a Bitcoin or more. As I understood, they wanted their transaction to be ranked top in halving block, so that's why paid such a high transaction fees but on another hand, I wonder, did they contact ViaBTC and asked for a refund? Did they claim that it was a mistake to pay such a high transaction fees? I ask this because in past people have made mistake, contacted miner and got refund. I really wonder if ordinals spammers did something like that.

it was intentional as it was the ½ ing block. So that will not be getting refunded.

un_rank

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 661

- Jay -

Quote from: LoyceV on May 12, 2024, 10:26:05 AM

I have no idea what's with the 4999 sat amounts.

That user has done that previously with 546 sats and 294 sats. They may be holding out hope that those numbers will become significant in the future or they like the symmetry that comes with it.

- Jay -

LoyceV

legendary

Activity: 3290

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Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

Quote from: un_rank on May 12, 2024, 06:47:44 AM

What will be the purpose of spamming consolidations?

I've rephrased my statement. I think they're now consolidating the many small inputs they created in the past. I have no idea what's with the 4999 sat amounts.

Quote from: Synchronice on May 12, 2024, 09:23:50 AM

Did they claim that it was a mistake to pay such a high transaction fees?

I don't think miners will fall for that. It obviously wasn't a mistake, just a crazy weird idea Tongue

Synchronice

hero member

Activity: 882

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Watch Bitcoin Documentary - https://t.ly/v0Nim

There is an interesting thing that happened 23 days ago. Guys, as you know, when someone pays enormously high fees, I mean some Bitcoins, they usually contact the miner who included this transaction in their block and ask them for refunds. The fee that many miners paid in this block are definitely out of this world, one miner paid up to 6.72 BTC, there are many others who paid up to a Bitcoin or more. As I understood, they wanted their transaction to be ranked top in halving block, so that's why paid such a high transaction fees but on another hand, I wonder, did they contact ViaBTC and asked for a refund? Did they claim that it was a mistake to pay such a high transaction fees? I ask this because in past people have made mistake, contacted miner and got refund. I really wonder if ordinals spammers did something like that.

un_rank

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 661

- Jay -

Quote from: LoyceV on May 12, 2024, 12:31:37 AM

Currently, there are many 11.0 sat/vbyte consolidations. But those all have 4999 sat inputs, and it looks like it's the Ordinal spammers that are now spamming consolidations. So one way or another, they occupy most block space.

What will be the purpose of spamming consolidations? All I can think of is they will want the fee to be cheaper when they make a transaction at a later time, does not sound much like spamming. If we have more of them conscious of how much are paid in fees, the feerate should not be all over the place as it has been since the halving and some months before that.

- Jay -

LoyceV

legendary

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Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

What do you know, 12 sat/vbyte is currently enough for a fast confirmation. That's the lowest I've seen in a month.
The data-spam still continues though. Without that, I'd expect lots of consolidations at 1 sat/vbyte.

Currently, there are many 11.0 sat/vbyte consolidations. But those all have 4999 sat inputs, and it looks like it's the Ordinal spammers that are now ~~spamming consolidations~~ consolidating the result of their previous spam. So one way or another, they occupy most block space.

ABCbits

legendary

Activity: 2870

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Crypto Swap Exchange

Quote from: NotATether on May 09, 2024, 01:11:07 AM

Quote from: Cricktor on May 07, 2024, 04:53:25 PM

And the shitheads don't care a f*** bloating the UTXO set. It's unlikely Satoshi will come to rescue and consolidate all the coins thrown at the Genesis block and others. Sadly, it's pure madness.

I was told that Bitcoin Core at least culls provably unspendable UTXOs from its UTXO set in order to save memory.

IIRC it's limited to OP_RETURN. Meanwhile, address which mine genesis block receive many dust.

Quote from: NotATether on May 09, 2024, 01:11:07 AM

*Maybe* it might also be possible for a node operator to manually specify the kind of UTXOs that it wants excluded from the UTXO set.

That's just wasting their time.

LoyceV

legendary

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Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

Quote from: NotATether on May 09, 2024, 01:11:07 AM

*Maybe* it might also be possible for a node operator to manually specify the kind of UTXOs that it wants excluded from the UTXO set.

If your node excluded an UTXO, and a miner includes it anyway, your node will reject the valid block.

NotATether

legendary

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bitcoincleanup.com / bitmixlist.org

Quote from: Cricktor on May 07, 2024, 04:53:25 PM

And the shitheads don't care a f*** bloating the UTXO set. It's unlikely Satoshi will come to rescue and consolidate all the coins thrown at the Genesis block and others. Sadly, it's pure madness.

I was told that Bitcoin Core at least culls provably unspendable UTXOs from its UTXO set in order to save memory.

*Maybe* it might also be possible for a node operator to manually specify the kind of UTXOs that it wants excluded from the UTXO set. I'm not sure how that would be done if it is even possible. Compact block filters maybe? Huh

Topic: [Aug 2022] Mempool empty! Use this opportunity to Consolidate your small inputs! - page 13. (Read 89029 times)