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Topic: Ayn Rand - page 2. (Read 5193 times)

sr. member
Activity: 310
Merit: 250
In Crypto I trust.
April 25, 2013, 05:17:56 PM
Any fans of Rand's philosophy here?

I just finished reading Atlas Shrugged.  I liked it even though it was a bit long winded.  I heard that Rand's father had a small business that was destroyed by the Bolshevik's and that might have influenced her philosophy.

Will bitcoin become "the motor of the world"? Wink
hero member
Activity: 717
Merit: 501
April 25, 2013, 01:16:51 PM
Actions speak louder than words.  Ayn Rand may have put on appearances of free-thinking and libertarianism, but the "cult" she organized around her was authoritarian and relied heavily on group think (insofar as, you were OUT if you didn't tow the randian line).  For further reading I'd direct you to this short and entertaining Murry Rothbard essay:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard23.html

+1 - Rothbard doesn't buy her brand of crap. Currently reading his "For a New Liberty".

MANY Randkooks don't really know that much about her. There is also the matter of her diary entries praising a serial killer:
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/08/mark-ames-paul-ryans-guru-ayn-rand-worshipped-a-serial-killer-who-kidnapped-and-dismembered-little-girls.html
You can't make this stuff up.

I believe she said she was investigating the serial killer, she never worshiped a serial killer.  She wrote a book on a polish actress. That what these anti-rand morons always go to.  They will say she collected social security, well duh they offered it to her.  Just so stupid.  They will say Ryan and Rand were followers, they fail to mention Steve Jobs and Mark Cuban are too.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 253
April 25, 2013, 01:04:15 PM
And every human is flawed and makes many mistakes throughout their life.  Just most of us don't have our thoughts at any particular time down on paper to be criticised by everyone later.  Maybe she realised her mistakes and changed her mind.  Who knows? 

I just take what I perceive to be good ideas and leave the bad ones.  Where they came from is ultimately irrelevant.

I didn't read through the Rothbard piece, but a quick skim seemed to me he was criticising cult thinking more than anything.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
April 25, 2013, 12:33:03 PM
Actions speak louder than words.  Ayn Rand may have put on appearances of free-thinking and libertarianism, but the "cult" she organized around her was authoritarian and relied heavily on group think (insofar as, you were OUT if you didn't tow the randian line).  For further reading I'd direct you to this short and entertaining Murry Rothbard essay:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard23.html

+1 - Rothbard doesn't buy her brand of crap. Currently reading his "For a New Liberty".

MANY Randkooks don't really know that much about her. There is also the matter of her diary entries praising a serial killer:
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/08/mark-ames-paul-ryans-guru-ayn-rand-worshipped-a-serial-killer-who-kidnapped-and-dismembered-little-girls.html
You can't make this stuff up.

And Hitler was a vegetarian who loved to paint. Surprise! People are more than 2-dimensional drawings!

But if you're reading For a New Liberty, you're on the right track. Let me know when you're ready for Sam Konkin.
full member
Activity: 159
Merit: 100
April 25, 2013, 12:23:52 PM
Actions speak louder than words.  Ayn Rand may have put on appearances of free-thinking and libertarianism, but the "cult" she organized around her was authoritarian and relied heavily on group think (insofar as, you were OUT if you didn't tow the randian line).  For further reading I'd direct you to this short and entertaining Murry Rothbard essay:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard23.html

+1 - Rothbard doesn't buy her brand of crap. Currently reading his "For a New Liberty".

MANY Randkooks don't really know that much about her. There is also the matter of her diary entries praising a serial killer:
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/08/mark-ames-paul-ryans-guru-ayn-rand-worshipped-a-serial-killer-who-kidnapped-and-dismembered-little-girls.html
You can't make this stuff up.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
April 25, 2013, 11:38:29 AM
Quote
Well, Myrkul? I take your inability to answer my question as an admission that you're wrong.
You don't usually give up so easily...

You have to understand  Nietzsche to see why there is judgment in the begining of your perception. I will try to make it simple.

EPIC post from the new guy!  Smiley

(and yes, Übermensch translates to superman. In fact, the Superman comic was almost a very different thing...)
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1019
Be A Digital Miner
April 25, 2013, 11:00:32 AM
Has anyone read We the Living?   Personally, I think that is her best work considering where she was when it was written and WHEN it was written.    Atlas seemed more like an attempt to explain the same concept over and over and over again because she assume people are so stupid they need to read the same point 1000x to just begin to "get" it.    
newbie
Activity: 42
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April 25, 2013, 10:59:26 AM
Actions speak louder than words.  Ayn Rand may have put on appearances of free-thinking and libertarianism, but the "cult" she organized around her was authoritarian and relied heavily on group think (insofar as, you were OUT if you didn't tow the randian line).

It's not really authoritarianism if you just don't want to associate with people you don't have much in common with. For example, the group of friends I hang out with doesn't include white supremacists or religious nutcases.

It goes far beyond merely "picking who you hang out with".  She cultivated an organized form of group-think around her.  READ the essay... it's short and entertaining  Smiley.
hero member
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April 25, 2013, 10:57:12 AM
I see. So the reason why every action should be decided based on a "value judgement", is because...

Because if you, and a long line of ancestors back to the simplest single-celled organism didn't make decisions in this manner, you wouldn't be here to argue this with me.

Every decision is an economic one, even those you claim aren't.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
April 25, 2013, 10:46:20 AM
I see. So the reason why every action should be decided based on a "value judgement", is because... you gave an example of walking past a donation kettle and making an economic decision.

Since every decision is economic in basis, I guess there's no such thing as non-economic decisions.


I'd like to hear your side of this. What do you believe decisions that are not economic/value-judgement type are based on?
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
April 25, 2013, 10:44:42 AM
Actions speak louder than words.  Ayn Rand may have put on appearances of free-thinking and libertarianism, but the "cult" she organized around her was authoritarian and relied heavily on group think (insofar as, you were OUT if you didn't tow the randian line).

It's not really authoritarianism if you just don't want to associate with people you don't have much in common with. For example, the group of friends I hang out with doesn't include white supremacists or religious nutcases.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
April 25, 2013, 10:34:46 AM
Actions speak louder than words.  Ayn Rand may have put on appearances of free-thinking and libertarianism, but the "cult" she organized around her was authoritarian and relied heavily on group think (insofar as, you were OUT if you didn't tow the randian line).  For further reading I'd direct you to this short and entertaining Murry Rothbard essay: http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard23.html

(also Hannah Arendt>Ayn Rand)
hero member
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April 25, 2013, 09:57:38 AM
Well, Myrkul? I take your inability to answer my question as an admission that you're wrong.
You don't usually give up so easily...

I answered your question. Every decision is an economic one. "Is it worth it?" Including your "decision" to not pay enough attention to the donation kettle to determine what it is. Just because you don't like the answer, doesn't mean I haven't answered you.
newbie
Activity: 14
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April 25, 2013, 05:55:27 AM
Quote
Well, Myrkul? I take your inability to answer my question as an admission that you're wrong.
You don't usually give up so easily...

You have to understand  Nietzsche to see why there is judgment in the begining of your perception. I will try to make it simple.

One of the big thesis in Nietzsche thinking is this : well before your instinct, your sensation there is a judgment, which mean an operation of the intellect.
Because he is appearing at the begining of the knowledge processus we can state that it's not a conscious judment. We can see it as the condition of possibility for perception to occur.
But how can we say that  such a judment exist? Philosopher just don't throw proposition like that.
You have to come back to Kant.
Usually before him, we thought that we could gain some knowledge about an object, just by studying  it.
But Kant come into play and yield : BULLSHIT if you want to be able to see an object you have to put something from you : which are the intuition of time and space.
We can agree, that time and space are not properties of an object. So they must come from something else, which is the subject.

It's the same for the causation categorie (for example : if a ball (A) touch another ball (B), the other ball will move). To be able to say that A cause B  you have to make the link between A and B, an intellect opération which come from the subject and not from the object.

Now time, space and causation are what Kant call the condition of possibility of experience. Which mean, that before an object appear in your perception, these three things have come to play. They are the intuition that make you able to give you the form of the experience.

These form that are the possibility of experience are what we call an a priori. Which mean something that is independ from the experience, and so are what is really objective in the world.


And then Nietzsche come into play and yield : BULLSHIT there is not such thing as a priori.
What nietzsche is saying when he put critics on the concept of kantian "a priori" it's not that they do not exist. What he can accept, it's there property of a priori. For nietzsche there is not such thing as an objectiv truth, because  everything is in "becoming". This "becoming" is not perceptible without an opération of the intellect which "fixe" (put a limitation in english?) this becoming and give something stable. Here we go the place where the first judgment apply.

You have to understand that this "becoming" threaten the organism. For two reason :
-The sensation in the world of becoming are always new. Which mean that for someone they are essentially unknown
-In order to go away of this unknown, you have to put something that you already knew. To be more clear, if sensation at there first apparition are always new, this novelty is shut down by putiting a sensation you already, know which is less powerful.
This operation is necessary because the world of becoming threaten the organism.


This is why the essence of the world for Nietzsche is suffering, and the essence of the superman (i hope it how you said it in english ^^) it's the man who can bear a lot of suffering.
The world of the becoming make men suffer because it's just to intense for the organism to bear it. To reduce this suffering, men have to logicise the world. Reduce the unknown to the known. Put old thing on what is always new. The will to power is essentialy this. Not some kind of domination bullshit, but the power to see a lot of new sensation. Sensation that transcends the sensation of the everyday life which have been drain from there intensity.

To come back to the kantian critics. The "a priori" have been a way for the organism to stabilise the "becoming" to reduce his power. Here is why we say later, that Nietzsche accept the "a priori" as something which put form to the becoming. But they are totallu empiristic.

So here what we got :
"Time, space and causation are what we use to be able to fixe the world of the becoming
They are not a priori because for them to become, they have to make there proof for the conservation of the organism. If they weren't able to maintain the organism, the way we shape your experience would be totally différent.
So something as to decide that the things are good for the organism to live.
So something judge these category as good.
And if the category are what your intellect is using to shape the experience.
There is a judgment at the begining of the experience. Before you know it.

(it's more complex because in those judgment there is all the history of manking coming into play.)

newbie
Activity: 42
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April 25, 2013, 01:39:34 AM
Man, everything I know about Ayn Rand came from watching the 1950s film adaptation of the fountainhead...  The entire movie was 2 hours of people who couldn't deal with their feelings.
hero member
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April 24, 2013, 10:23:14 PM
Moon is a Harsh Mistress, 1966 IIRC, shows strong influences from AS.
I definitely see similarities. It might have been his response to it.

I'll tell you this: Moon definitely influenced me more than Shrugged
legendary
Activity: 2912
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April 24, 2013, 10:17:45 PM
Moon is a Harsh Mistress, 1966 IIRC, shows strong influences from AS.
hero member
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April 24, 2013, 10:11:39 PM
So ... did Rand set this up to show that each of these lovers acted immorally?

I don't believe so. I think she set that up to show the truth of this quote:

“Love is that condition in which the happiness of another person is essential to your own.”

― Robert A. Heinlein, Stranger in a Strange Land

Though Atlas Shrugged was published 4 years before Stranger in a Strange Land, so it wasn't intended as a direct example, more as illustrating the same premise.
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 1386
April 24, 2013, 10:03:40 PM

Assume someone aggresses against me.  I'd be well within my rights to defend myself, but I can choose not to.  I can put someone else's self-interest above my own out of love for them.

As I understand objectivism, I would be acting immorally since I am not acting in my own self-interest, but I see it otherwise.
Great question.

In Atlas Shrugged, Reardon put his self interest aside when blackmailed and signed his patent over to the evil government. 

How was he blackmailed?  They threatened to make public his affair with Dagney.

Dagney put her self interest aside, in turn, and publicly stated that she had this affair on national radio.

So ... did Rand set this up to show that each of these lovers acted immorally?

(I'm stopping at this point for discussion purposes)

legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 1386
April 24, 2013, 09:56:00 PM
There are many who enter government determined to destroy it.  
True, but that rather puts the lie to the comment that started this all:

The fact that so many government officials and economists are Randians
just makes her ideas more creepy.

Unless, of course, he is frightened by the collapse of the state?
Did we get to "many" yet?

Many of Rand's supposedly radical ideas can be traced back to Nietzsche.
She dumbed down many of his ideas and used them as starting points for her novels.
No, Rand has a deal of very original thinking.  And where can many of her ideas be traced to?  Aristotle.

...Yet ANOTHER abuse of the "many"...

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