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Topic: Ayn Rand - page 5. (Read 5241 times)

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April 15, 2013, 11:40:54 PM
#65
An ideal ('night watchman') minimal state needn't fund itself through coercion.

This has been discussed endlessly (as you know  Wink) and my favorite proposed solution is to use fines collected from criminals (foreign and domestic) to fund national defense, courts, and police.  It's also arguable that a flat tax, imposed on all citizens equally, is a fair method of preventing the fraud/abuse of free riders.  I know ya'll AnCaps will never accept that, but want to put it out there to clarify where we differ.
The flat tax, I think, you can guess where my problem lies. Though it is "fair," it is still coercive.

As for the fines from criminals, I am here actually going to borrow from a Anarcho-syndicalist critique of AnCap. It was incorrect in applying it to AnCap, but by that same token, it applies perfectly to the "night watchman" State. In such a system (the State funded entirely from fines from criminals) there would be a drive, perhaps even a necessity, to both broaden the scope of fine-able offenses, and to steepen the fines. Compare the current practice of asset forfeiture, and you see my concern.

The only way to fund such a State without encroaching on rights is voluntarily, through subscriptions. And indeed, there may be (small, or sparsely populated) areas where it is natural for there to be only one provider... and though it would have a natural monopoly, the defining characteristic of a "State" is that it's monopoly is absolute... it brooks no competition on it's territory. A market provider of Security would not have the ability to force it's competitors out of the region, so while you might get something that looks very much like a State, it would actually be nothing of the sort.

Ok, we have a deal.  I'll read de Molinari and you read Nozick.  Then we'll compare notes and further demonstrate the narcissism of minor differences.   Cheesy

Looking forward to it. Smiley

My most glaring concern with Nozick's theory - albeit at first glance, without having yet read the book - echoes Rothbard's: Since Anarchy is required for such a "justified" state to develop, then proponents of the minimal state should be pushing just as hard for a market anarchy as the staunchest AnCaps. You have to take the flag all the way up, before bringing it back to half-mast.
legendary
Activity: 2156
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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
April 15, 2013, 11:09:12 PM
#64
An ideal ('night watchman') minimal state needn't fund itself through coercion.

This has been discussed endlessly (as you know  Wink) and my favorite proposed solution is to use fines collected from criminals (foreign and domestic) to fund national defense, courts, and police.  It's also arguable that a flat tax, imposed on all citizens equally, is a fair method of preventing the fraud/abuse of free riders.  I know ya'll AnCaps will never accept that, but want to put it out there to clarify where we differ.

Ok, we have a deal.  I'll read de Molinari and you read Nozick.  Then we'll compare notes and further demonstrate the narcissism of minor differences.   Cheesy

I've been responding to Rothbard's admirably intellectual position paper on Nozick for years.  Here we go again!   Roll Eyes

First, Nozick never intended AS&U to justify the existing (IE coercive) states.  His was an academic exercise, intended to demonstrate the theoretical ability (and desirability) of a minimal state to emerge and exist without initiating force.  IDK why Murry spends so much time fighting that strawman; Nozick never claimed to be an historian.

Second, although Murry's other critiques of Nozick's internal logic are all very pointed and well argued, none of them actually persuade me that, given that there is (empirically) a natural monopoly on police power, anything other than a minimal state will maximize liberty and asymptotically approach utopia.

However, these are all minor quibbles.  Both Rothbard and Nozick (as well as Ayn Rand) occupy places of high honor in my personal pantheon of heroes.

Can you imagine the conversations old Murray, Bob, and Ayn are having in Jewish Valhalla?  We are not worthy to argue in their stead.   Grin
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April 15, 2013, 10:55:09 PM
#63
The only alternative to intellectual property is intellectual socialism.

And yes, as a true champion of individual rights, she couldn't accept anarchy.

According to Walter Block, Rand called libertarians/anarchists "Hippies of the right."

I'm sure a lot of such people would blanch at the thought of being labeled "right-wing."

For a laugh, read:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/libertarian-my-ass-160726
sr. member
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April 15, 2013, 10:46:34 PM
#62
The only alternative to intellectual property is intellectual socialism.

And yes, as a true champion of individual rights, she couldn't accept anarchy.

According to Walter Block, Rand called libertarians/anarchists "Hippies of the right."

I'm sure a lot of such people would blanch at the thought of being labeled "right-wing."
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April 15, 2013, 08:35:12 PM
#61
"Coercive government" is not necessarily redundant.  Coercion only occurs when a government initiates force.
Which it necessarily does to acquire funding.

Retaliatory use of force, in response to a criminal initiation of violence, is not coercion.
Agreed, but this is not my complaint against government.

There is no government at all in AnCap.  What you are describing ("non-coercive, decentralized, minimal government") is the ideal libertarian state.
Indeed it is, and that state is AnCap.
I'll definitely read Nozick, But I'd like you to read de Molinari. It might clear some things up for you.

http://mises.org/document/2716

Edit: Oh, and while you're at it, don't forget Rothbard's response to Nozick:
http://www.mises.org/journals/jls/1_1/1_1_6.pdf
legendary
Activity: 2156
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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
April 15, 2013, 08:24:27 PM
#60
A coercive, centralized, non-minimal government or an arbitrary, subjective mob is the worst possible "arbiter for honest disagreements among men."

^^Fixed it for you.^^

Yeah, not really. Since "coercive government" is redundant, and "arbitrary, subjective mob" is pretty much the textbook definition of democracy, you've not really changed my statement much.

And if you want a non-coercive, decentralized, minimal government, then what you're looking for is AnCap.

"Coercive government" is not necessarily redundant.  Coercion only occurs when a government initiates force.

Retaliatory use of force, in response to a criminal initiation of violence, is not coercion.

There is no government at all in AnCap.  What you are describing ("non-coercive, decentralized, minimal government") is the ideal libertarian state.

Read Professor Nozick's classic treatise on the subject, and all will become clear.   Wink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy,_State,_and_Utopia

http://socioline.ru/files/5/315/nozick_robert_-_anarchy_state_and_utopia.pdf

http://www.amazon.com/Anarchy-State-Utopia-Robert-Nozick/dp/0465097200



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April 13, 2013, 06:38:58 AM
#59
Ayn Rand was a pretty terrible writer, in terms of her ability to use the English language or tell a story. She was extremely dogmatic, so people who like the dogma tend to like her book too- in the same way that Christians like dumb and boring passages of the Old Testament (disclaimer: I was one of them a few years back). This isn't a comment on her philosophy, just her storytelling ability.

Show me a fan of this book who identified with the union workers if you can find one, I haven't been able to: this tells you all you need to know about the book's literary merits. When people read this book, they imagine themselves to be the John Galt type, and enjoy reading about a dogma that puts them first in the food chain, atop the hierarchy of human life. One reason Ayn Rand isn't as good a storyteller as Dickens, is that even though you hate Scrooge or Miss Havisham you'll still identify and empathise with them and perhaps see some of yourself in them- because we're all human, and a good storyteller puts humanity on display; a good preacher dehumanises, which is why Rand fans no more identify with the Atlas Shrugged union bosses than Christians do with the antichrist.
newbie
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April 13, 2013, 02:40:03 AM
#58
I am a huge fan.
He's not kidding. I pulled this picture from his Facebook page:
hero member
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April 12, 2013, 10:37:02 PM
#57
Heh.
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Feel the coffee, be the coffee.
April 12, 2013, 10:24:17 PM
#56
From a web comic I follow. There is an epic Ayn Rand reference at the end.

https://www.spinnyverse.com/2011/04/20/04202011/

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April 12, 2013, 10:05:08 PM
#55

Thanks for this link, by the way. It shows that she had heard of Anarcho-capitalism, at least somewhat, though I don't think anyone ever sat down and explained it to her. Her Russian upbringing seems to have colored her views as to the "service" which Government provides, and I'm sure that didn't help, either.

Quote
A recent variant of anarchistic theory, which is befuddling some of the younger advocates of freedom, is a weird absurdity called “competing governments.” Accepting the basic premise of the modern statists—who see no difference between the functions of government and the functions of industry, between force and production, and who advocate government ownership of business—the proponents of “competing governments” take the other side of the same coin and declare that since competition is so beneficial to business, it should also be applied to government. Instead of a single, monopolistic government, they declare, there should be a number of different governments in the same geographical area, competing for the allegiance of individual citizens, with every citizen free to “shop” and to patronize whatever government he chooses.

Remember that forcible restraint of men is the only service a government has to offer. Ask yourself what a competition in forcible restraint would have to mean.

One cannot call this theory a contradiction in terms, since it is obviously devoid of any understanding of the terms “competition” and “government.” Nor can one call it a floating abstraction, since it is devoid of any contact with or reference to reality and cannot be concretized at all, not even roughly or approximately. One illustration will be sufficient: suppose Mr. Smith, a customer of Government A, suspects that his next-door neighbor, Mr. Jones, a customer of Government B, has robbed him; a squad of Police A proceeds to Mr. Jones’ house and is met at the door by a squad of Police B, who declare that they do not accept the validity of Mr. Smith’s complaint and do not recognize the authority of Government A. What happens then? You take it from there.

To which David Friedman responds:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=jTYkdEU_B4o#t=282s
hero member
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April 12, 2013, 08:47:33 PM
#54
Rand was jewish. people shouldn't touch her stuff with a 10 foot pole.
Nope.

Rand was an athiest.

More precisely, she viewed God or a belief in God as unnecessary.
This is a person who decides, that because you disagree with him about hating Jews, you must be a Jew yourself. Nothing you say will affect his calcified little brain.
legendary
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April 12, 2013, 08:40:30 PM
#53
Rand was jewish. people shouldn't touch her stuff with a 10 foot pole.
Nope.

Rand was an athiest.

More precisely, she viewed God or a belief in God as unnecessary.
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April 12, 2013, 07:23:09 PM
#52
A coercive, centralized, non-minimal government or an arbitrary, subjective mob is the worst possible "arbiter for honest disagreements among men."

^^Fixed it for you.^^

Yeah, not really. Since "coercive government" is redundant, and "arbitrary, subjective mob" is pretty much the textbook definition of democracy, you've not really changed my statement much.

And if you want a non-coercive, decentralized, minimal government, then what you're looking for is AnCap.
legendary
Activity: 2156
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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
April 12, 2013, 07:12:53 PM
#51
A coercive, centralized, non-minimal government or an arbitrary, subjective mob is the worst possible "arbiter for honest disagreements among men."

^^Fixed it for you.^^
hero member
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April 12, 2013, 07:03:06 PM
#50
The problem in a Rand world is that it doesn't account for irrational behaviour.

While its easy enough to be rational when you have very little to gain or lose, as soon as that formula changes, and your ego gets involved, then people will do the daftest things to maintain their lifestyles.

That is what socialism is all about!

I see... reduce everyone to a state where they have nothing to gain, and nothing to lose. Sounds boring.
legendary
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April 12, 2013, 06:53:53 PM
#49
The problem in a Rand world is that it doesn't account for irrational behaviour.

While its easy enough to be rational when you have very little to gain or lose, as soon as that formula changes, and your ego gets involved, then people will do the daftest things to maintain their lifestyles.

That is what socialism is all about!



Is socialism like Facebook and MySpace?

(Just kidding Grin)
sr. member
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April 12, 2013, 06:35:37 PM
#48
The problem in a Rand world is that it doesn't account for irrational behaviour.

While its easy enough to be rational when you have very little to gain or lose, as soon as that formula changes, and your ego gets involved, then people will do the daftest things to maintain their lifestyles.

That is what socialism is all about!

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April 12, 2013, 06:31:06 PM
#47
Which brings me to my other complaint with her.... She supported intellectual property. Probably why she couldn't quite accept getting rid of government entirely.

Scratch an Anarchist and a Fascist Bleeds...

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/anarchism.html

Quote
even a society whose every member were fully rational and faultlessly moral, could not function in a state of anarchy; it is the need of objective laws and of an arbiter for honest disagreements among men that necessitates the establishment of a government.

A government is the worst possible "arbiter for honest disagreements among men."
legendary
Activity: 2156
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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
April 12, 2013, 06:27:49 PM
#46
Which brings me to my other complaint with her.... She supported intellectual property. Probably why she couldn't quite accept getting rid of government entirely.

Scratch an Anarchist and a Fascist Bleeds...

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/anarchism.html

Quote
even a society whose every member were fully rational and faultlessly moral, could not function in a state of anarchy; it is the need of objective laws and of an arbiter for honest disagreements among men that necessitates the establishment of a government.
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