Ayn Rand - page 3. | Bitcointalksearch.org

Rassah

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Quote from: Hawker on April 24, 2013, 04:45:46 AM

I'm not entirely sure why her supporters on this forum want to disavow those of her devotees that got elected or that got appointed to government. If the board members of the Ayn Rand Society aren't "pure" enough, then the whole thing seems a little pointless.

I don't think anyone here is disavowing anyone. On the contrary. The argument isn't, "yeah, there are a lot of Randians in government, but they're not "true Randians," the argument is that there are few (very few) Randians in government, not many, and not enough.

Quote from: abbyd on April 24, 2013, 09:01:14 AM

We can add Paul Ryan to her list of devotees (he had to backtrack during his campaign because of the atheism brand).
Ron Paul's son is named after Ayn Rand. Did we get to "many" yet?

We got to 3. Out of 541 members in house and senate, and 7 members of the Board at the Federal Reserve. I'm sure the actual number is more than 3, since a lot of them likely stay quiet, but I doubt it's much more than 3, or anywhere near "many." Especially since Democrats don't like Randian ideas because they are decidedly pro-capitalist/anti-socialist, and Republicans don't like her ideas because they are decidedly anti-religious/anti-corporate cronyism. Democrats need to keep getting elected by pushing more social programs, and Republicans need to keep pushing god, and getting corporate kickbacks and lobbying.

myrkul

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Quote from: wdmw on April 24, 2013, 11:02:59 AM

Assume someone aggresses against me. I'd be well within my rights to defend myself, but I can choose not to. I can put someone else's self-interest above my own out of love for them.

As I understand objectivism, I would be acting immorally since I am not acting in my own self-interest, but I see it otherwise.

Well, if they use force against you, and still you offer them what they wanted willingly, then I wouldn't say you're acting immorally. Perhaps unwisely, unless you make it clear to them that you're giving them what they wanted not because they forced you, but because you want to (don't want to encourage them).

For instance, the scene in Les Misérables where the priest gives Jean the silver, even though he had stolen it originally. That act of kindness enabled him to make a new life for himself. And the priest made him promise that he would use it for just that purpose.

Now, I don't know how Ayn Rand would have viewed that exchange, but I look at it as the priest giving up some silver (which the church surely has no shortage of) in exchange for saving a man's soul (to say nothing of his life). Both I, and assuredly the priest, view that as a worthwhile exchange. It all comes down to why you give up what you're giving up. If it's because you want to, that's not sacrifice. If it's because you're forced to, that is sacrifice, and immoral.

wdmw

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Quote from: myrkul on April 23, 2013, 06:26:27 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: myrkul on April 12, 2013, 12:04:25 PM

Quote from: wdmw on April 12, 2013, 11:48:28 AM

I agree with many of the premises of objectivism in how they relate to society, government, and forced collectivism. I reject it as the highest moral goal, since I believe there is some good in altruism and sacrifice that is done voluntarily.

If you do it willingly, it's not sacrifice. You're giving up one value - generally money, sometimes time - for something you value more: the knowledge that you have helped someone else. It's only sacrifice if you give up a greater value for a lesser, which necessarily requires coercion.

That people generally see the idea of not giving up a greater value for a lesser as rejecting helping others speaks poorly of them, not Rand.

Why should every action be decided based on a "value judgement"? How are those bars in that mental prison of yours? Are you still on the outside and managing to keep those evil ideas safely locked-up? Wink

The "value judgment" need not even be conscious. If you've ever walked past a goodwill kettle without dropping a coin in while your pockets were not empty, you've made the decision that you value whatever you would have to forgo in exchange for making that donation more than you value the feeling you would have gotten from donating.

Perhaps I can ask the question better this time.

Assume someone aggresses against me. I'd be well within my rights to defend myself, but I can choose not to. I can put someone else's self-interest above my own out of love for them.

As I understand objectivism, I would be acting immorally since I am not acting in my own self-interest, but I see it otherwise.

myrkul

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Quote from: Gordonium on April 24, 2013, 10:13:26 AM

Quote from: abbyd on April 24, 2013, 09:01:14 AM

I think any sane person is frightened of the collapse of the state - it almost always leads to massive violence due to a power vacuum.

"Randians" don't wont collapse the state, just to make goverment limited in power. Actually Randian fiscal policy would save state from collapsing.

Not to mention that he's assuming there would be a power vacuum in the first place. If the state collapses due to a libertarian evolution in political thinking, it will be because those in "power" no longer had that power. Thus, no power vacuum.

Gordonium

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Quote from: abbyd on April 24, 2013, 09:01:14 AM

I think any sane person is frightened of the collapse of the state - it almost always leads to massive violence due to a power vacuum.

"Randians" don't wont collapse the state, just to make goverment limited in power. Actually Randian fiscal policy would save state from collapsing.

myrkul

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Quote from: abbyd on April 24, 2013, 09:01:14 AM

Ron Paul's son is named after Ayn Rand.

No, he is not. Rand is short for Randal.

abbyd

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Quote from: myrkul on April 23, 2013, 05:26:27 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 05:23:16 PM

There are many who enter government determined to destroy it.

True, but that rather puts the lie to the comment that started this all:

Quote from: abbyd on April 23, 2013, 03:39:15 PM

The fact that so many government officials and economists are Randians
just makes her ideas more creepy.

Unless, of course, he is frightened by the collapse of the state?

I think any sane person is frightened of the collapse of the state - it almost always leads to massive violence due to a power vacuum.

We can add Paul Ryan to her list of devotees (he had to backtrack during his campaign because of the atheism brand).
Ron Paul's son is named after Ayn Rand. Did we get to "many" yet?

Many of Rand's supposedly radical ideas can be traced back to Nietzsche.
She dumbed down many of his ideas and used them as starting points for her novels.

Hawker

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Quote from: Spendulus on April 23, 2013, 10:19:20 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 05:23:16 PM

...snip...

There are many who enter government determined to destroy it.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0612/77834.html

Here's another couple for you.

Its not fun for either of us to manually list Ayn Rand supporters who got into positions of power or debate the meaning of "many." Its a matter of fact that they exist and that they don't see the contradiction in the way that you do. Lets just leave it there

Not, it's not fun. Because it's simply not the case that there are many people in government service who understand or agree with Rand's ideas. Listing a few people doesn't create the "many".

Note I said "understand or agree". One could understand but disagree.

Again, there would be few in goverment service with that attitude.

Lets not debate the meaning of "few" either as that also is not fun. I think we can agree Ayn Rand is one of the 25 most influential writers in US politics today. I'm not entirely sure why her supporters on this forum want to disavow those of her devotees that got elected or that got appointed to government. If the board members of the Ayn Rand Society aren't "pure" enough, then the whole thing seems a little pointless.

Hawker

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Quote from: steelhouse on April 24, 2013, 12:28:07 AM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 05:13:49 PM

The question was whether there were many Ayn Rand devotees in government. I provided one famous example. He happened to be a board member. I'm sure there are more; the lady has a following and of course there will be many who share her views in government.

There are very few Rand devotees in government because if they were they would end rule by majority and end the income tax. My favorite piece of hers is red army, white army, you can listen to it on youtube.

I think you are kidding yourself. Alan Greenspan never advocated either of those things. Ayn Rand herself applied for and took Social Security. If the members of the board of the Ayn Rand Society and Ayn Rand herself behave in this way, you must assume that you have misunderstood her work.

steelhouse

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Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 05:13:49 PM

The question was whether there were many Ayn Rand devotees in government. I provided one famous example. He happened to be a board member. I'm sure there are more; the lady has a following and of course there will be many who share her views in government.

There are very few Rand devotees in government because if they were they would end rule by majority and end the income tax. My favorite piece of hers is red army, white army, you can listen to it on youtube.

Spendulus

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Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 05:23:16 PM

Quote from: myrkul on April 23, 2013, 05:18:34 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 05:13:49 PM

Quote from: myrkul on April 23, 2013, 05:08:32 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 05:06:31 PM

Quote from: myrkul on April 23, 2013, 05:05:32 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 04:57:37 PM

Are you asking for a list? Google it or write to the Ayn Rand Society. I'm sure either way way works. The lady has a following and of course there will be many who share her views in government.

Have you read the books? Have you even looked at a wikipedia article about her views? Few who share them would seek government employ.

With respect, why would I? If your argument is that the Ayn Rand Society board members don't understand her books, then what's the point?

Well, your argument seems to be that the members of the Ayn Rand Society board share have a large overlap with people in government office. I suggested that I find that hard to credit.

The question was whether there were many Ayn Rand devotees in government. I provided one famous example. He happened to be a board member. I'm sure there are more; the lady has a following and of course there will be many who share her views in government.

And it is my contention that "of course there will be many who share her views in government" is unlikely, given her views, especially of government.

There are many who enter government determined to destroy it.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0612/77834.html

Here's another couple for you.

Its not fun for either of us to manually list Ayn Rand supporters who got into positions of power or debate the meaning of "many." Its a matter of fact that they exist and that they don't see the contradiction in the way that you do. Lets just leave it there

Not, it's not fun. Because it's simply not the case that there are many people in government service who understand or agree with Rand's ideas. Listing a few people doesn't create the "many".

Note I said "understand or agree". One could understand but disagree.

Again, there would be few in goverment service with that attitude.

myrkul

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: myrkul on April 12, 2013, 12:04:25 PM

Quote from: wdmw on April 12, 2013, 11:48:28 AM

I agree with many of the premises of objectivism in how they relate to society, government, and forced collectivism. I reject it as the highest moral goal, since I believe there is some good in altruism and sacrifice that is done voluntarily.

If you do it willingly, it's not sacrifice. You're giving up one value - generally money, sometimes time - for something you value more: the knowledge that you have helped someone else. It's only sacrifice if you give up a greater value for a lesser, which necessarily requires coercion.

That people generally see the idea of not giving up a greater value for a lesser as rejecting helping others speaks poorly of them, not Rand.

Why should every action be decided based on a "value judgement"? How are those bars in that mental prison of yours? Are you still on the outside and managing to keep those evil ideas safely locked-up? Wink

The "value judgment" need not even be conscious. If you've ever walked past a goodwill kettle without dropping a coin in while your pockets were not empty, you've made the decision that you value whatever you would have to forgo in exchange for making that donation more than you value the feeling you would have gotten from donating.

myrkul

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Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 05:23:16 PM

There are many who enter government determined to destroy it.

True, but that rather puts the lie to the comment that started this all:

Quote from: abbyd on April 23, 2013, 03:39:15 PM

The fact that so many government officials and economists are Randians
just makes her ideas more creepy.

Unless, of course, he is frightened by the collapse of the state?

Hawker

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Quote from: myrkul on April 23, 2013, 05:18:34 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 05:13:49 PM

Quote from: myrkul on April 23, 2013, 05:08:32 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 05:06:31 PM

Quote from: myrkul on April 23, 2013, 05:05:32 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 04:57:37 PM

Are you asking for a list? Google it or write to the Ayn Rand Society. I'm sure either way way works. The lady has a following and of course there will be many who share her views in government.

Have you read the books? Have you even looked at a wikipedia article about her views? Few who share them would seek government employ.

With respect, why would I? If your argument is that the Ayn Rand Society board members don't understand her books, then what's the point?

Well, your argument seems to be that the members of the Ayn Rand Society board share have a large overlap with people in government office. I suggested that I find that hard to credit.

The question was whether there were many Ayn Rand devotees in government. I provided one famous example. He happened to be a board member. I'm sure there are more; the lady has a following and of course there will be many who share her views in government.

And it is my contention that "of course there will be many who share her views in government" is unlikely, given her views, especially of government.

There are many who enter government determined to destroy it.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0612/77834.html

Here's another couple for you.

Its not fun for either of us to manually list Ayn Rand supporters who got into positions of power or debate the meaning of "many." Its a matter of fact that they exist and that they don't see the contradiction in the way that you do. Lets just leave it there

myrkul

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Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 05:13:49 PM

Quote from: myrkul on April 23, 2013, 05:08:32 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 05:06:31 PM

Quote from: myrkul on April 23, 2013, 05:05:32 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 04:57:37 PM

Are you asking for a list? Google it or write to the Ayn Rand Society. I'm sure either way way works. The lady has a following and of course there will be many who share her views in government.

Have you read the books? Have you even looked at a wikipedia article about her views? Few who share them would seek government employ.

With respect, why would I? If your argument is that the Ayn Rand Society board members don't understand her books, then what's the point?

Well, your argument seems to be that the members of the Ayn Rand Society board share have a large overlap with people in government office. I suggested that I find that hard to credit.

The question was whether there were many Ayn Rand devotees in government. I provided one famous example. He happened to be a board member. I'm sure there are more; the lady has a following and of course there will be many who share her views in government.

And it is my contention that "of course there will be many who share her views in government" is unlikely, given her views, especially of government.

Hawker

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Quote from: myrkul on April 23, 2013, 05:08:32 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 05:06:31 PM

Quote from: myrkul on April 23, 2013, 05:05:32 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 04:57:37 PM

Are you asking for a list? Google it or write to the Ayn Rand Society. I'm sure either way way works. The lady has a following and of course there will be many who share her views in government.

Have you read the books? Have you even looked at a wikipedia article about her views? Few who share them would seek government employ.

With respect, why would I? If your argument is that the Ayn Rand Society board members don't understand her books, then what's the point?

Well, your argument seems to be that the members of the Ayn Rand Society board share have a large overlap with people in government office. I suggested that I find that hard to credit.

The question was whether there were many Ayn Rand devotees in government. I provided one famous example. He happened to be a board member. I'm sure there are more; the lady has a following and of course there will be many who share her views in government.

myrkul

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Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 05:06:31 PM

Quote from: myrkul on April 23, 2013, 05:05:32 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 04:57:37 PM

Are you asking for a list? Google it or write to the Ayn Rand Society. I'm sure either way way works. The lady has a following and of course there will be many who share her views in government.

Have you read the books? Have you even looked at a wikipedia article about her views? Few who share them would seek government employ.

With respect, why would I? If your argument is that the Ayn Rand Society board members don't understand her books, then what's the point?

Well, your argument seems to be that the members of the Ayn Rand Society board share have a large overlap with people in government office. I suggested that I find that hard to credit.

Hawker

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Quote from: myrkul on April 23, 2013, 05:05:32 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 04:57:37 PM

Are you asking for a list? Google it or write to the Ayn Rand Society. I'm sure either way way works. The lady has a following and of course there will be many who share her views in government.

Have you read the books? Have you even looked at a wikipedia article about her views? Few who share them would seek government employ.

With respect, why would I? If your argument is that the Ayn Rand Society board members don't understand her books, then what's the point?

myrkul

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Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 04:57:37 PM

Are you asking for a list? Google it or write to the Ayn Rand Society. I'm sure either way way works. The lady has a following and of course there will be many who share her views in government.

Have you read the books? Have you even looked at a wikipedia article about her views? Few who share them would seek government employ.

Hawker

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Merit: 1001

Quote from: Rassah on April 23, 2013, 04:54:22 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 04:45:28 PM

Quote from: Rassah on April 23, 2013, 04:37:04 PM

Quote from: abbyd on April 23, 2013, 03:39:15 PM

The fact that so many government officials and economists are Randians
just makes her ideas more creepy.

Huh? Examples?

Alan Greenspan. Last Chairman of Federal Reserve. Member of Ayn Rand Institute and of the Atlas Society. Friend and admirer of Ayn Rand and convert to her obhectivism since the early 1950s.

Well, yeah, we know about him, and there's also Rand Paul and Paul Ryan... That's 3 well known ones out of the 100 senators, 500 members of house, 50 governors, and many other officials. Many of these people are very socialist (both republicans and democrats, with just their own brand of socialism) or religious ideologues. So... where is the "many" that are Randians?

Are you asking for a list? Google it or write to the Ayn Rand Society. I'm sure either way way works. The lady has a following and of course there will be many who share her views in government.

Topic: Ayn Rand - page 3. (Read 5193 times)