Topic: BetCoin.TM Bitcoin Casino | Poker | Slots | Sports | Live Dealers | And More! - page 44. (Read 49073 times)

Well, that's true, but it is calculated a bit differently for bonuses.

For dice, our house edge is 1.88%.

Say you deposit 1 BTC, and you stand to unlock 3.01. The wagering requirement would be 1555.88.

So, to calculate the EV,

1555.88 * 0.0188 = 29.25

Right, so the expected value of the bonus is negative if you were to continue to wager your own funds to unlock the bonus, but the fact of the matter is that the deposit itself is zero-risk.

If you're not happy with the outcomes of the games, then you can just cancel the bonus and play with your regular deposit. From the site:


The fact that it is zero-risk, to me, guarantees that no matter what, unlocking the bonus is a chance with expected (though unlikely) positive results that you take in order to get 301% of your deposit. When I talk about Expected Value in the case of a risk-free bonus, I'm talking about the face value of the unlocked amount. If the bonus had some risk involved, then obviously at these numbers 50-80x would make it more likely, but if you're looking to get 3x of small wagers, then just play the games. We are offering a way to get 3 times the total deposited amount while not taking on any risk - I don't see how this is unfair.

We're not looking to get people to keep depositing their money in order to unlock an unlikely bonus - you can stop at any time, and we don't hide any of the bonus information from anyone.

And we certainly aren't keeping your deposited funds tangled with the bonus amount, that would be ludicrous. We're giving a risk free shot to deposit money, try your luck to get 3x the deposit without taking any risks (unless you choose to).

I fail to see how this is unfair to anyone. The fact that it is extremely unlikely, to most of our players, is irrelevant. They have a fair shot at doing it - just as they have a fair shot at unlocking the no-deposit bonus, and we're not going to force anyone to play through their actual deposited funds.

In the end, even a modest bonus of 2 with a 30x rollover would net you a .1 or so and the possibility of losing all your funds.

Take as much risk as you want - our bonuses give people a fair shot to win without exposing them to excessive risk. Our players happily take the bonus to test the system to check our provably fair system. Some win it big, and some don't, but that is the nature of games of chance.


This is just plainly not the case unless you wager your amount down to zero. Most players will withdraw their funds long before they get to this point. When the prospects are not good, withdrawal is the best option. We do not stop them from doing so if they don't meet the bonus requirements or choose to cancel their bonus.

If you want to deposit and then withdraw to play with the deposit bonus, then that is essentially playing with the no-deposit bonus. So, yes that would cancel the bonus.

Also, the statement should be "We won't ever disallow you from withdrawing any amount of your deposit that you haven't already wagered."

Lol of course you cant.
Which casino make you deposit and take out ur intial deposit and play with deposit bonus btc?
Once you make no deposit bonus. You cant cashout anything unless you meet wagering or rollover requirements.

They said earlier:


but I doubt that is true. For example if I reject the bonus and immediately lose my whole deposit on a single bet then I would expect them to make my deposit unavailable to withdraw. So the bolded sentence is inaccurate, but I'm left not know what the actual situation is - which is why I asked the question I did.

As for your question I would expect that any withdrawal cancels the bonus, but it's hard to be sure about anything. They've already said that any new deposit will cancel your bonus - so if they're discouraging you from depositing more I can't see how they wouldn't also discourage you from withdrawing.

Thank you for explaining in more detail.  That was pretty much exactly what I was going to/trying to say.

Also, amusingly enough, the question you asked was literally the next thing I was going to ask.  I'm interested in the answer, as well as a slight variant...can I deposit 1BTC, take the bonus, withdraw my 1BTC and play off of the bonus?

How can you be speaking on behalf of a casino and not understand what "expected value" means? That is just astonishing.

Expected value is defined as the sum of the product of the probability of each event and the corresponding profit.

Support you have a 0.002 (1 in 500) chance of unlocking the bonus and cashing out 4.01, and a 0.998 (499 in 500) chance of losing your 1 BTC deposit, the expected value is:

    0.002 * (+3.01) + 0.998 * (-1)

since when you unlock it your profit is +3.01 and when you don't your profit is -1.

    0.002 * (+3.01) + 0.998 * (-1) = -0.99198

That means for every BTC you deposit, your expected profit is -0.99198 BTC.

I don't know if 1 in 500 is a reasonable probability of unlocking the bonus, but even if it was 1 in 100 the EV would be:

    0.01 * (+3.01) + 0.99 * (-1) = -0.9599

It's clearly a terrible idea to take the first-deposit bonus.

---

I have something else I'm unclear about:

Support I deposit 1 BTC and take the 3.01x deposit bonus. I have a total of 4.01 BTC to play with. Then I play a little and get down to 2 BTC left.

Can I still withdraw my 1 BTC deposit and cancel the remaining 1 BTC of bonus I have left?

Or do you consider that the 2.01 BTC I lost so far was my deposit plus 1.01 BTC of bonus and so I can't withdraw anything?

Please clarify.

Ah, I forgot you asked for a link to the rules. I assume you found those, though. Just in case,

www.betcoin.tm/blackjack/howtoplay

If you were able to withdraw 4.01 (which you would after unlocking the bonus), that is a 301% increase in your deposit.


You would have 3.01 at the very least after unlocking.

Sorry, we aren't purposefully ignoring you. Some of these rules have been suggested in the past by other players, and we are certainly looking into adding them. However, we have put our current efforts into expanding our game offering to ensure that we have a wider offering. There are dedicated departments and developers for our proprietary games, however, and after the recent comments about the game we are certainly going to put extra effort to provide some TLC for our BlackJack game. If you choose not to play BlackJack on our site because of your rule preferences, then that is fine, but we certainly regret it and hope that you will try it again after we update the game logic.

No one here is trying to ignore anything - the purpose of us having this thread is to address player concerns and you should think us smarter than to try to 'brush something off'. The internet never forgets.

BetcoinTM I don't know why you ignore my questions regarding your blackjack. Purposely?

Anyways I finally found your rules page under the How to Play and after plugging in the house rules into a blackjack house edge calculator you have undoubtedly the worst 3:2 blackjack rules I've encountered in my 20 years playing the game either online or brick-and-mortar.

It calculates the house edge at over 1.1%!!!!! WTF.

Lets start with all the bad player rules

-Only double on 10 and 11.
-No double down after split
-No resplitting Aces
-Dealer hits Soft 17
-Player loses all wagers if dealer has a blackjack including doubles
-Casino uses 8 decks
-Casino offers no Insurance on Dealer Ace.


No wonder you ignore my comments so hopefully this brushes over and players don't realize what a scam you are operating with the most horrific rules in the history of blackjack. I am shocked a casino would offer such a bad game. Greed is an understatement.

No one should be playing this game.

I spelled out exactly why it isn't a positive value.  Math.

So betcointm? How about us? That didn't cant access to poker room?
Can you whitelist me? I wanna join massive tournament in few days..

The expected value of unlocking the bonus is the 3.01 BTC. If you were to cash out 4.01 BTC after starting with 1... I am not exactly sure how that is not a positive value.

When you unlock the rollover requirements, the 3 BTC is what you unlock - not your 1 BTC deposit.

That's not true.

Let's use the above example.  I deposit 1BTC.  I get 3.01BTC as a bonus.  I now have 4.01BTC to gamble with.  Let's, for the moment, completely ignore that I can only ever cash out a max of 4.01BTC, which completely negates any positive variance I may experience (that is to say, if I get lucky I won't get the money...if I get unlucky I'll still lose money).  For me to be able to withdraw I'll need to gamble the 4.01BTC 388x.  So I need to wager 1555.88BTC. 

In order for this offer to be +ev, I'd need to have 1.01BTC in my account after I finish the rollover.  For that to be true, your games would have to only have a .2% hold.

Do your games have 99.8% or higher payback?  Because if not, this deal is NOT +ev for depositors.

Once your account has been aged, you'll get access to instant withdrawals. With the volume of accounts that have been created recently, most users won't have access to this feature yet - however, over time you will. We feel that this not only protects us, but it protects you as well.

Our system "gets to know you", and if anything happens out of the ordinary on your account we can catch it early or reach out to you directly. Yes, we have 2FA and signed messages, but you can never be too careful. While we see that this issue makes a lot of people a bit uneasy (sometimes cashouts can take a while), we believe that in the longrun it is safer for our players. So, for now, we're going to keep this feature.

It's understandable that you don't share our position, we hope that you understand that we believe it is in your best interest.

Why are so many people only interested in bonuses and promos, instead of looking the site as any other gambling site, just play and have fun ?
imho the most important thing should be allowing instant cashouts, like many other competitor sites have done. Everything else seams spot on.


Already following

Want to stay abreast of our Massive Freerolls of over 2 BTC per week? Worried you might not catch the next big giveaway? Follow us on Twitter - where we announce big winners, Freerolls, and exclusive new promos that will only be announced on our Twitter channel. Never miss a beat.

Twitter.com/BetCoinTM

Winning, in this case, means unlocking the bonus. You get the original bonus amount for unlocking it.

The crux of this for me is that the wagering requirements, in general, of other establishments have to do with actual deposited funds, and with us the bonus amount is included. So the game may seem harder or less likely, but the outcome is better in our case. You don't have to continually deposit funds to unlock your bonus, which creates -EV. Our bonus, however unlikely, has a high +EV for depositors (and non-depositors).

The "risk" is that you can't get the funds that you win.  

Please address this and when you plan to fix the blackjack. Also I'd like a link or where I can find out the rules of your blackjack (i.e. how many decks/doubles and split rules etc.)