BFL ASIC is bogus - page 9. | Bitcointalksearch.org

LazyOtto

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Quote from: Dargo on August 09, 2012, 12:06:59 AM

This indicates that at some point the promised specs changed to 750-800 Mh @ 40-50 watts and the price had changed to $700.

And I agree with you.

The next shoe to drop in this BFL SC/ASIC drama is when "the promised specs change" and what the performance and price point will be then.

As well as the actual lead time to delivery after 100% money paid at time of order.

k9quaint

legendary

Activity: 1190

Merit: 1000

Quote from: ElectricMucus on August 08, 2012, 09:00:41 PM

Quote from: Vorksholk on August 08, 2012, 08:47:53 PM

Quote from: ElectricMucus on August 08, 2012, 02:09:36 PM

Quote from: Vorksholk on August 08, 2012, 01:26:42 PM

I personally think the only thing about the ASIC Jalepeno that isn't going to deliver is the coffee warmer part. The hashing power, as I see it, is possible, but good luck warming a coffee cup on a USB3.0. Espresso maybe?

You'd have to do better than that.
We have gone to great length explaining why we think BFLs numbers are fallacious. So you better address those arguments or at least provide some of your own.

Basically as said before, they could be using multiple chips, each chip with only a 3-5x performance increase over FPGA, which seems logical and perfectly possible in an ASIC. 5W may seem pretty hopeful, but I bet they can pull it off. ASIC chips can, as I've heard, deal with pretty high temps, so cooling won't be quite as important, meaning the fan would have a lower powerdraw. I'm no expert at all, and the power draw does seem a bit low, however I can certainly see a 3-5x performance increase to ASIC chips, even with a bit older of a production technique (like 130).

Alright, I pretty much already gone into that as well but again:

'older' production techniques are pretty much still state of the art on low volume ASICs. While 180nm is common and 130nm at a premium.
The costs for a full custom ASICs in 180nm are beyond the market for BFL products (~10mil USD)
There are no complete workflow software packackes available which can enable designing the chips without enough manpower.
A fpga conversion 'ASIC' cannot meet the specs (at all feature sizes) and while it is the most likely chip to be used that would mean BFL would (again) exaggerated their promises.

I think the most likely output from BFL is a multi-chip, low production volume, FPGA to ASIC conversion @ ~110nm with a core running @ ~400Mhz. That seems feasible to me, although it would not meet their stated performance goals. What is your opinion?

Dargo

legendary

Activity: 1820

Merit: 1000

Quote from: LazyOtto on August 08, 2012, 11:49:00 PM

And I find going back and reading that thread, in light of history and contemporary threads on the 'new' product, to be hilarious.

Agreed. So many people saying "I'm 100% certain this is a scam!" Anyway, as far as I can tell, you are right - the original spec was for 1 Gh @ 20 watts, with a pre-order price of $500. However, I also found this post from D & T

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.637431

This indicates that at some point the promised specs changed to 750-800 Mh @ 40-50 watts and the price had changed to $700. I don't have time to go through the whole thread right now, but it looks like the price was boosted to $700 at some point, and then (I assume) lowered to $600 (maybe when the final specs came in at 800 Mh @ 80 watts).

LazyOtto

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

And I find going back and reading that thread, in light of history and contemporary threads on the 'new' product, to be hilarious.

LazyOtto

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Quote from: Dargo on August 08, 2012, 11:28:22 PM

Is BFL's own account here a lie?

Possibly. IMO they do not have a reputation which can be cited in their favor.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/1ghs-20w-500-butterflylabs-is-it-a-scam-48863

Of course, the BFL web pages themselves have now been deleted / scrubbed. But it is clear from the context of that thread that the pre-release price point was initially quoted as $500.

--

BTW, thank you for digging up the quote you remembered.

Dargo

legendary

Activity: 1820

Merit: 1000

Quote from: LazyOtto on August 08, 2012, 10:54:05 PM

Uh, my recollection is that they *raised* the price from $500 to $600 once they actually had a product to ship.

Can you quote something to support your statement about a price reduction, please?

Is BFL's own account here a lie?

http://www.butterflylabs.com/bitforce-sc-release-notes/

"Our one blemish in spec estimate was with our original product. The Single was announced at 1.05 GH/s @ 20W. However, we released it at 832 MH/s @ 80W. This was part of our introductory learning curve specific to this network hash application which is really quite extraordinary and unlike simple processor cryptography which is our background. In the end, we missed our speed spec by 20% and power by a factor of 4. In fairness, we offered refunds and lowered our prices from $699 to $599 to compensate."

700 - 100 = 14% pride reduction. I thought I had read about this somewhere else as well, but can't remember where.

LazyOtto

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Uh, my recollection is that they *raised* the price from $500 to $600 once they actually had a product to ship.

Can you quote something to support your statement about a price reduction, please?

Dargo

legendary

Activity: 1820

Merit: 1000

Quote from: ElectricMucus on August 08, 2012, 09:55:38 PM

Quote from: Dargo on August 08, 2012, 09:45:08 PM

"Regarding refunds and charge back policy: All sales are final unless we fail to perform. That includes both performance and shipping targets. 60 days past target and we'll happily refund your purchase."

I guess "performance" is a bit vague, but I take that to mean they need to meet spec.

Easy:
According to BFL believers: Hashes/Jule and Hashes/sec
According to BFL: Hashes/sec only and only in the "Ballpark"

Several estimations on what a real product would be capable of were done, I think even in this thread. But one thing: It is pretty clear that BFL deliberately left out numbers on the power requirement in order to encourage speculation. The only thing we have is a explanation from USB power limits which are fallacious in the first place since no possible accessible technology can provide it even in theory.

I think your view is quite plausible. Personally I won't be overly miffed if they at least come close on Hashes/sec, but are way off on the implied-but-not-stated power spec. Sort of like the old singles - they turned out 20% less on the Hash rate, 4x higher power consumption, and BFL cut the price by 14% since they missed the promised specs. Ohhh, the Horror!

ElectricMucus

legendary

Activity: 1666

Merit: 1057

Marketing manager - GO MP

Quote from: Dargo on August 08, 2012, 09:45:08 PM

"Regarding refunds and charge back policy: All sales are final unless we fail to perform. That includes both performance and shipping targets. 60 days past target and we'll happily refund your purchase."

I guess "performance" is a bit vague, but I take that to mean they need to meet spec.

Easy:
According to BFL believers: Hashes/Jule and Hashes/sec
According to BFL: Hashes/sec only and only in the "Ballpark"

Several estimations on what a real product would be capable of were done, I think even in this thread. But one thing: It is pretty clear that BFL deliberately left out numbers on the power requirement in order to encourage speculation. The only thing we have is a explanation from USB power limits which are fallacious in the first place since no possible accessible technology can provide it even in theory.

Dargo

legendary

Activity: 1820

Merit: 1000

Well if they don't meet spec, it's worth remembering they have stated on this forum that this is a reason for which you can get a refund.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitforce-sc-pre-order-list-89523

"Regarding refunds and charge back policy: All sales are final unless we fail to perform. That includes both performance and shipping targets. 60 days past target and we'll happily refund your purchase."

I guess "performance" is a bit vague, but I take that to mean they need to meet spec.

At this point I'm getting tired of speculating...time to just wait and see what they come up with!

ElectricMucus

legendary

Activity: 1666

Merit: 1057

Marketing manager - GO MP

Quote from: Vorksholk on August 08, 2012, 08:47:53 PM

Quote from: ElectricMucus on August 08, 2012, 02:09:36 PM

Quote from: Vorksholk on August 08, 2012, 01:26:42 PM

I personally think the only thing about the ASIC Jalepeno that isn't going to deliver is the coffee warmer part. The hashing power, as I see it, is possible, but good luck warming a coffee cup on a USB3.0. Espresso maybe?

You'd have to do better than that.
We have gone to great length explaining why we think BFLs numbers are fallacious. So you better address those arguments or at least provide some of your own.

Basically as said before, they could be using multiple chips, each chip with only a 3-5x performance increase over FPGA, which seems logical and perfectly possible in an ASIC. 5W may seem pretty hopeful, but I bet they can pull it off. ASIC chips can, as I've heard, deal with pretty high temps, so cooling won't be quite as important, meaning the fan would have a lower powerdraw. I'm no expert at all, and the power draw does seem a bit low, however I can certainly see a 3-5x performance increase to ASIC chips, even with a bit older of a production technique (like 130).

Alright, I pretty much already gone into that as well but again:

'older' production techniques are pretty much still state of the art on low volume ASICs. While 180nm is common and 130nm at a premium.
The costs for a full custom ASICs in 180nm are beyond the market for BFL products (~10mil USD)
There are no complete workflow software packackes available which can enable designing the chips without enough manpower.
A fpga conversion 'ASIC' cannot meet the specs (at all feature sizes) and while it is the most likely chip to be used that would mean BFL would (again) exaggerated their promises.

Vorksholk

legendary

Activity: 1713

Merit: 1029

Quote from: ElectricMucus on August 08, 2012, 02:09:36 PM

Quote from: Vorksholk on August 08, 2012, 01:26:42 PM

I personally think the only thing about the ASIC Jalepeno that isn't going to deliver is the coffee warmer part. The hashing power, as I see it, is possible, but good luck warming a coffee cup on a USB3.0. Espresso maybe?

You'd have to do better than that.
We have gone to great length explaining why we think BFLs numbers are fallacious. So you better address those arguments or at least provide some of your own.

Basically as said before, they could be using multiple chips, each chip with only a 3-5x performance increase over FPGA, which seems logical and perfectly possible in an ASIC. 5W may seem pretty hopeful, but I bet they can pull it off. ASIC chips can, as I've heard, deal with pretty high temps, so cooling won't be quite as important, meaning the fan would have a lower powerdraw. I'm no expert at all, and the power draw does seem a bit low, however I can certainly see a 3-5x performance increase to ASIC chips, even with a bit older of a production technique (like 130).

k9quaint

legendary

Activity: 1190

Merit: 1000

Quote from: RoadStress on August 08, 2012, 05:03:13 PM

Quote from: k9quaint on August 08, 2012, 04:34:39 PM

Quote from: RoadStress on August 08, 2012, 03:36:01 PM

I'm only a reader of this forum, ...

That should read that you have signed up for this forum. If you had read it, you would know that the physics don't add up for at least one of BFL's products.

Ok then i will add to my statement that he should be blamed only because he is a competitor on the bitcoin mining hardware market. In all his posts about BFL's ASIC he is really trying to make a point against them.

Physics don't care if he is or is not a competitor. That should be irrelevant to the discussion. Either the physics are right, or they are not.
In all threads about BFL's ASICs the posts should make points about BFL ASICs. You should address the criticisms themselves instead of trying to discredit the person posting them.

cablepair

hero member

Activity: 896

Merit: 1000

Buy this account on March-2019. New Owner here!!

Quote from: RoadStress on August 08, 2012, 03:36:01 PM

Quote from: rjk on August 08, 2012, 02:52:02 PM

Quote from: cablepair on August 08, 2012, 02:28:38 PM

the speeds BFL posted for their ASIC units are just educated guesses, pure and simple.

Will they offer ASIC based Bitcoin mining hardware?

Probably

Will It Ship in 2012

No Way

The speeds they came up with are just something they pulled out of their asses via mathematical equations, they dont want you to buy products like the modminer quad, x6500, icarus and ztex

they want you to wait for another year for their asic instead of spending money on very profitable fpga's that you can get within weeks

they want to continue their strangle hold on this market (its starting to loosen) so they come up with these lies, give the community something to dream about, people believe their fallacies not because they deliver on all their promises but because they deliver just enough to keep everyone believing.

Don't worry they are not the only people working on ASIC based mining hardware (thank God)

You will know the real thing when you see it , because there will be a working prototype - not just an over inflated BFL design with some hypothetical speeds

stay tuned my friends

I can understand this sentiment from a common users' perspective, or even perhaps that of someone more learned, but regardless - it isn't anything you as a competitor should be saying in so many words. You have no proof positive or negative of how much work has or has not gone into the design and/or production of said devices, and claiming otherwise is detrimental to your own business as well.

I'm only a reader of this forum, but i must reply here. Thank you rjk for this kind of replies! cablepair if you have no hardproof of what you are claiming then it's my right to say that you have pulled that reply out of your ass. (i'm not a BFL fanboi)

I made my statements based on BFL's track record and my own extensive and current knowledge of ASIC/sASIC developments in regards to SHA256 processing and of course Bitcoin mining.

It's not hard to get an equation to give you the results you want to have, a prototype is a different story.

RoadStress

legendary

Activity: 1904

Merit: 1007

Quote from: k9quaint on August 08, 2012, 04:34:39 PM

Quote from: RoadStress on August 08, 2012, 03:36:01 PM

I'm only a reader of this forum, ...

That should read that you have signed up for this forum. If you had read it, you would know that the physics don't add up for at least one of BFL's products.

Ok then i will add to my statement that he should be blamed only because he is a competitor on the bitcoin mining hardware market. In all his posts about BFL's ASIC he is really trying to make a point against them. That's what is wrong. If he would have said something like "i don't believe them period" then it's another story.

@ElectricMucus 37 posts and i'm a troll. ok!

k9quaint

legendary

Activity: 1190

Merit: 1000

Quote from: RoadStress on August 08, 2012, 03:36:01 PM

I'm only a reader of this forum, ...

That should read that you have signed up for this forum. If you had read it, you would know that the physics don't add up for at least one of BFL's products.

ElectricMucus

legendary

Activity: 1666

Merit: 1057

Marketing manager - GO MP

Quote from: RoadStress on August 08, 2012, 03:36:01 PM

I'm only a reader of this forum, but i must reply here. Thank you rjk for this kind of replies! cablepair if you have no hardproof of what you are claiming then it's my right to say that you have pulled that reply out of your ass. (i'm not a BFL fanboi)

read up on your trolling techniques.
https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Prove_me_wrong

RoadStress

legendary

Activity: 1904

Merit: 1007

Quote from: rjk on August 08, 2012, 02:52:02 PM

Quote from: cablepair on August 08, 2012, 02:28:38 PM

the speeds BFL posted for their ASIC units are just educated guesses, pure and simple.

Will they offer ASIC based Bitcoin mining hardware?

Probably

Will It Ship in 2012

No Way

The speeds they came up with are just something they pulled out of their asses via mathematical equations, they dont want you to buy products like the modminer quad, x6500, icarus and ztex

they want you to wait for another year for their asic instead of spending money on very profitable fpga's that you can get within weeks

they want to continue their strangle hold on this market (its starting to loosen) so they come up with these lies, give the community something to dream about, people believe their fallacies not because they deliver on all their promises but because they deliver just enough to keep everyone believing.

Don't worry they are not the only people working on ASIC based mining hardware (thank God)

You will know the real thing when you see it , because there will be a working prototype - not just an over inflated BFL design with some hypothetical speeds

stay tuned my friends

I can understand this sentiment from a common users' perspective, or even perhaps that of someone more learned, but regardless - it isn't anything you as a competitor should be saying in so many words. You have no proof positive or negative of how much work has or has not gone into the design and/or production of said devices, and claiming otherwise is detrimental to your own business as well.

I'm only a reader of this forum, but i must reply here. Thank you rjk for this kind of replies! cablepair if you have no hardproof of what you are claiming then it's my right to say that you have pulled that reply out of your ass. (i'm not a BFL fanboi)

rjk

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 250

1ngldh

Quote from: cablepair on August 08, 2012, 02:28:38 PM

the speeds BFL posted for their ASIC units are just educated guesses, pure and simple.

Will they offer ASIC based Bitcoin mining hardware?

Probably

Will It Ship in 2012

No Way

The speeds they came up with are just something they pulled out of their asses via mathematical equations, they dont want you to buy products like the modminer quad, x6500, icarus and ztex

they want you to wait for another year for their asic instead of spending money on very profitable fpga's that you can get within weeks

they want to continue their strangle hold on this market (its starting to loosen) so they come up with these lies, give the community something to dream about, people believe their fallacies not because they deliver on all their promises but because they deliver just enough to keep everyone believing.

Don't worry they are not the only people working on ASIC based mining hardware (thank God)

You will know the real thing when you see it , because there will be a working prototype - not just an over inflated BFL design with some hypothetical speeds

stay tuned my friends

I can understand this sentiment from a common users' perspective, or even perhaps that of someone more learned, but regardless - it isn't anything you as a competitor should be saying in so many words. You have no proof positive or negative of how much work has or has not gone into the design and/or production of said devices, and claiming otherwise is detrimental to your own business as well.

cablepair

hero member

Activity: 896

Merit: 1000

Buy this account on March-2019. New Owner here!!

the speeds BFL posted for their ASIC units are just educated guesses, pure and simple.

Will they offer ASIC based Bitcoin mining hardware?

Probably

Will It Ship in 2012

No Way

The speeds they came up with are just something they pulled out of their asses via mathematical equations, they dont want you to buy products like the modminer quad, x6500, icarus and ztex

they want you to wait for another year for their asic instead of spending money on very profitable fpga's that you can get within weeks

they want to continue their strangle hold on this market (its starting to loosen) so they come up with these lies, give the community something to dream about, people believe their fallacies not because they deliver on all their promises but because they deliver just enough to keep everyone believing.

Don't worry they are not the only people working on ASIC based mining hardware (thank God)

You will know the real thing when you see it , because there will be a working prototype - not just an over inflated BFL design with some hypothetical speeds

stay tuned my friends

Topic: BFL ASIC is bogus - page 9. (Read 22392 times)