BFL refund through Paypal claim - page 5.

solitude

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Quote from: solitude on July 07, 2013, 09:47:15 PM

Are you guys selling your preorders on ebay or just filing a claim with Paypal/FTC?

If I sell my pre-order on ebay and am paid through paypal, and these clowns never end up shipping, or ship a year from now, what's stopping the buyer from initiating a chargeback?

Bumping for more replies to this

Unacceptable

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Quote from: solitude on July 07, 2013, 09:47:15 PM

Are you guys selling your preorders on ebay or just filing a claim with Paypal/FTC?

If I sell my pre-order on ebay and am paid through paypal, and these clowns never end up shipping, or ship a year from now, what's stopping the buyer from initiating a chargeback?

Exactly why I didn't sell my BFL preorder ANYWHERE.................................. Roll Eyes

It's not worth the headache to worry if their going to fold later or not ship in a "timely" fashion to keep from having to refund the buyer of my preorder.

solitude

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Are you guys selling your preorders on ebay or just filing a claim with Paypal/FTC?

If I sell my pre-order on ebay and am paid through paypal, and these clowns never end up shipping, or ship a year from now, what's stopping the buyer from initiating a chargeback?

Loredo

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Quote from: k9quaint on July 06, 2013, 11:21:30 AM

Erk ignores anything that disagrees with his point of view. He probably has half the forum ignored by now.
From his little echo chamber, BFL is the greatest company on earth and all of it's customers are happy.
Plus, he probably gets paid for ButterShilling (TM).

If you believe that to be true (and I ain't saying it isn't plausible any more than I'm saying it's wrong) then consider this:

A ways above, he was directing people to the Kansas state consumer protection laws, and associating the activities of BFL with telemarketing. That, to that extent that Yip was confused.

Taken together, the conclusions would have to be:

(a) KA consumer protection would not give any comfort (you, after all, are out of state, e.g.);
(b) State telemarketing regulations or laws have nothing to do with it;
(c) The Federal laws remain the place to look, if anywhere. Remember who it was who prosecuted Mr. Vleisides before, on what grounds, and for using which instrumentalities of communication and commerce.

k9quaint

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Loredo

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Quote from: KarmaShark on July 06, 2013, 06:22:55 AM

For all of the coverage the BFL Long-Con has received, this is the first time I have seen someone give this perspective. To anyone involved in ฿ intelligent enough to not do business with BFL, you really have to be thrilled about what they have been able to pull off, on a personal level. You can thank BFL for the following:
...
The BFL scandal is a wonderful example of how this industry attracts both types of investors in droves, and why shamelessly (and obviously) bilking the most gullible of them is still a profitable business venture.

Can't agree with everything in your point of view, but there is one thing which is certainly true.

In high tech, often, the first adopters lose their financial investment. But the hardware is built and functioning, and, then, after the "fire sales," the economic balance between cost and value are restored.

Think, e.g., of the amount of fiber run below the streets and rights of way in the late 1990's, dark for a decade, now carrying the expanding backbone. Think of the Iridium satellites, unprofitable until the pennies-on-dollar sale restored the only truly global satellite phone service.

domoblur

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For those of you with significant preorders "investments" with BFL, I'd suggest you'd seek refunds soon through whichever avenue you choose. You want to be at the front of the refund line and not at the end. Soon the company will be looted and then protected by bankruptcy laws. It will then be unlikely you will see your funds nor any miner.

erk

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KarmaShark

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Quote from: PuertoLibre on July 05, 2013, 02:07:56 AM

Quote from: Unacceptable on July 05, 2013, 01:28:23 AM

If you want a refund,just whine louder!!!!

Glad I don't have to deal with them anymore Grin

& NEVER again Tongue

I think everyone is just entering into panic because:

A) The price of Bitcoin is down almost 30% in the last week. (PANIC!)
B) The enormous amount of ASICs are making BTC very hard to mine. And this is barely the tip of the iceberg. (PANIC x2)
C) BFL's customer base has become aware that they are being royally screwed.

I am cheering BFL on. Because they are keeping those that didn't want to see the signs a virtual hostage with their money.

In which case, they (BFL) are making these customers stick with their decision. They no longer have a choice in the matter. Shouldn't we rejoice that BFL customers had enough wisdom to rush the refund window all at the same time at the very last second?

Now they will get ASICs that will cost them money and not actually make them any (unless they purchased a large lot). (In my opinion.)

Hopefully when the BFL customers get desperate and all begin selling off their hardware, people like us will snatch it up on pennies on the dollar. Let them all sell it off at discounted prices.

Those of you buying these at disenchanted prices, make sure to hold out for a good deal. Lets start with 50% purchase price. Then work our way down from there.

For all of the coverage the BFL Long-Con has received, this is the first time I have seen someone give this perspective. To anyone involved in ฿ intelligent enough to not do business with BFL, you really have to be thrilled about what they have been able to pull off, on a personal level. You can thank BFL for the following:

- Herding the most gullible and naive Bitcoin investors together and cleaning them out of all of some / all of their $ or ฿'s, thus removing them from the market. Their purchasing power is gone and they are no longer competing with yours to drive up prices. BFL customers have made us all wealthier.

- ASICMINER has been given the market, thanks in large part to their #2 or #3 challenger offering them a full 12-14 month head start. Any rare BFL hardware that does make it to an investor will now have to compete in a sea of outperforming hardware of scale. BFL has essentially taken $ and ฿ directly from clueless investors and redistributed that bounty back into the network, down the grapevine and into ASICMINER shareholders pockets.

- 50-75% hardware blow-outs on BFL's gear are coming this Fall. For the few remaining marks left in the BFL camp, the odds of receiving hardware that works AND is profitable is becoming a pipe dream. Queue the flood of BFL pre-order fire sales taking place in the Auctions forum on this very site and Ebay. This is what should happen, intelligent investors that had the sense to stay away from BFL can now use their $ or ฿ to buy up the bilked investors discounted hardware. This allows someone to still make a net return on the hardware, and that is how it should be in this case.

The free market punishes lack of foresight, impatience and naivete. It rewards vision, mental strength and timing. The BFL scandal is a wonderful example of how this industry attracts both types of investors in droves, and why shamelessly (and obviously) bilking the most gullible of them is still a profitable business venture.

scambutterflylabs

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... in 2 months ...

PuertoLibre

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Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on July 06, 2013, 02:27:52 AM

Quote from: PuertoLibre on July 05, 2013, 03:38:33 PM

Reach out to some news station and get a chance to air your story with a troubled company:

Main Page: http://www.kmbc.com/news/9-can-help
Contact Info: http://www.kmbc.com/news/9-can-help/Got-a-problem-Contact-9-Can-Help/-/14588640/14597360/-/yr8m5jz/-/index.html

KMBC 9 News investigation

You're a mother fuckin' mind reader. The first time one of them BFLers say "No comment!", their mailbox will begin to get filled with even more refund requests.

At least BFL will have one ace up their sleeve: Pay for more advertising on this forum to garner more sales.

Remember last year when all the buzz was about working 24/7 on the holiday days? Name one day BFL had a full complement of workers at their facility on a holiday. Even better, name any day where crews working 24/7. As far as I can tell, there's still a swarm of locusts in the unemployment line, and that's only if the temp assemblers didn't ear them.

I recall those statements around the end of last year.

They never keep their promises, do they?

Phinnaeus Gage

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Quote from: PuertoLibre on July 05, 2013, 03:38:33 PM

Reach out to some news station and get a chance to air your story with a troubled company:

Main Page: http://www.kmbc.com/news/9-can-help
Contact Info: http://www.kmbc.com/news/9-can-help/Got-a-problem-Contact-9-Can-Help/-/14588640/14597360/-/yr8m5jz/-/index.html

KMBC 9 News investigation

You're a mother fuckin' mind reader. The first time one of them BFLers say "No comment!", their mailbox will begin to get filled with even more refund requests.

At least BFL will have one ace up their sleeve: Pay for more advertising on this forum to garner more sales.

Remember last year when all the buzz was about working 24/7 on the holiday days? Name one day BFL had a full complement of workers at their facility on a holiday. Even better, name any day where crews working 24/7. As far as I can tell, there's still a swarm of locusts in the unemployment line, and that's only if the temp assemblers didn't ear them.

YipYip

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Quote from: erk on July 05, 2013, 10:16:03 AM

Kansas, the state where BFL are located, has extensive consumer protection legislation, you might want to review some.

http://kansasstatutes.lesterama.org/Chapter_50/Article_6/

I would imagine that a web sale would fall under the telemarketing legislation, which entitles the consumer to a refund right up until 7 days after taking delivery of the goods or service.

So don't fall for the all sales are final ploy, do your research.

erk whats this trying to change sides are we....lol

You are a BFL shill so please remember your place is to try and fill the world with more BFL bullshit

Loredo

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Do note, though, that the Better Business Bureau has no official capacity. In fact, I believe that a business pays the BBB to become a member and to receive a rating.

So, while membership in good standing is evidence of good will on the part of a business, not being a member is not itself evidence of ill will.

PuertoLibre

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Butterfly Labs @ The Better Business Bureau

http://www.bbb.org/us/Find-Business-Reviews/name/Butterfly+labs/

BBB Reviews for Butterfly Labs:

http://www.bbb.org/kansas-city/business-reviews/telecommunication-equipment-and-systems-dealers/butterfly-labs-in-kansas-city-mo-1000002011

How to File a Complaint:
https://www.bbb.org/consumer-complaints/file-a-complaint/get-started/?source=cibr&bbbid=0674&bid=1000002011

Flying Hellfish

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Quote from: erk on July 05, 2013, 10:16:03 AM

Kansas, the state where BFL are located, has extensive consumer protection legislation, you might want to review some.

http://kansasstatutes.lesterama.org/Chapter_50/Article_6/

I would imagine that a web sale would fall under the telemarketing legislation, which entitles the consumer to a refund right up until 7 days after taking delivery of the goods or service.

So don't fall for the all sales are final ploy, do your research.

BFL is more likely a mail order business than a telemarketing business, however I will say from what I have read and understand BFL not honouring refund request is at least against FTC regulations, I am also quite sure there are tons of other consumer protection laws on the state and municipal level that deal with this stuff but its pretty clear to most rational people that you can not just take a consumers money and if you have yet to deliver the product you tell them to go pound salt and tell them we will deliver when we deliver.

This is the actual FTC link that talks about mail order business and delivery and refunding. From the description there it certainly appears as though BFL falls in the mail order business.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

Paladin69

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It looks like you can also file a complaint to the Attorney General of Kansas City directly. Not sure if you need to be a citizen of Kansas City or not...

http://ag.ks.gov/

http://da.jocogov.org/complaint-forms

PuertoLibre

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Reach out to some news station and get a chance to air your story with a troubled company:

Main Page: http://www.kmbc.com/news/9-can-help
Contact Info: http://www.kmbc.com/news/9-can-help/Got-a-problem-Contact-9-Can-Help/-/14588640/14597360/-/yr8m5jz/-/index.html

KMBC 9 News investigation

Paladin69

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Quote from: Paladin69 on July 03, 2013, 04:54:32 PM

Yes if you haven't received your refund by now you can file complaint with the Federal trade commission. They will advocate for you and make sure you get your funds.

https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/

You can do this with any product if the business is located in the US.

bump

Loredo

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Quote from: PuertoLibre on July 05, 2013, 02:07:56 AM

In which case, they (BFL) are making these customers stick with their decision. They no longer have a choice in the matter. Shouldn't we rejoice that BFL customers had enough wisdom to rush the refund window all at the same time at the very last second?

Now they will get ASICs that will cost them money and not actually make them any

While, generally, I try to control the emotions of Schadenfreude, and keep it business, sometimes, it seeps through.

When, in March or April, BFL ran the game called "We're getting ready to ship now. Reconfirm and lock in your order now or we'll refund you now, and nevermore", there was nothing but rejoicing in the BFL camp, and mocking of those who had been questioning things all along.

We think we should try to be sympathetic, though.

Topic: BFL refund through Paypal claim - page 5. (Read 15293 times)