Topic: BiblePay | 10% to Orphan-Charity | RANDOMX MINING | Sanctuaries (Masternodes) - page 220. (Read 243437 times)

how it will work now? bankroll will never touched already splitted coins? (with .001 at the end?)
even if i will have only 200k new coins and exec bankroll 300 1000? or in this case it will use some splitted coins?

Make up in volume. Sometimes organizations go out of business thinking they can make it up on volume. Sometimes you can, but you really need a good plan to succeed and gain market share. I think PoG has that potential. Once the algo is locked down and proven to work (although I have my reservations currently), it'll be a marketing game. Good marketing includes word-of-mouth, so having more participants definitely helps with that. My concern is that greed is a very powerful motivator... and there will likely be many participants... but is that the kind of community we want to attract with BiblePay? It seems anti-thetical to Christian values.

Ok, I found the bug, thanks for pointing this out.
The exec bankroll function does spend existing bankrolls to make new ones and it should not do this.

I will make a leisure release to fix this first thing in the morning.

Following the command at https://discontinuo.us/biblepay-unofficial-wiki/proof-of-giving/how-to-setup-biblepay-proof-of-giving-pog-using-new-wallet I had to first unlock my wallet.  But then I was able to perform two back to back


Which made 5 coin stacks of 500.001 with the label TITHES each time.

The only thing that I can think possibly you had some locked transactions that you weren't able to actually make the amount you needed without reusing previous stacks?  So as an example, did if you were trying to exec bankroll 500 1000 but you only had 750,000 free, I'm not sure if it would re-use 250 of your stacks from the first go around or if it would simply fail the second time.

this one takes piles
5bab2b0f25dc2593d2d6ad89ab3312fba0f42140ba4a8d2334f0ef85487d615d

here i was trying bankroll and it was marked as ''çreate denominations''
5bc5250a15fd52b523467e120dec6989055a01a802074c2f13819735c6532a56

here was another bankroll which created piles mentioned above.. but this one was marked as ''payment to yourself''
d5378532d4b3e603cfb34b199c2a0cb61fd6c38ebec93e8060504192fe81a987

I'm not questioning the maximum tithes or the payout (beyond the ROI being astronomical).  I'm basically asking how can we gain more users in a system that if it were working at median difficulty would normally need more supply than exists.  I'm not asking if the system can support more tithes than it currently does, I understand the system under Environment B in theory could support 92,000 tithes a day but the issue is there is not supply to actually do that.


So to break it down I'll hit my thoughts step by step; stop me where I'm wrong.

Under Environment B Median difficulty would mean:

46,000 in tithes per day (92,000 max, median difficulty is half that)?

max tithe of 5 BBP (based half the maximum tithe of 10)?

If both are true, then you'd need roughly 9,200 tithes in a day (at 5 BBP) to maintain median difficulty.

Those tithes would have to come from coin stacks (or whatever you wish to call them) of at least 12,500 BBP each?

Those coin stacks would have to be at least 30 days old?

If those are both true, then in a single day, you'd see 9,200 * 12,500 coin stacks being used that were each at least 30 days old.  This is 115M BBP.

To continue this system at the same median difficulty, you'd need another 115M coins that had been idle for 30 days on day 2, another on day 3, and so on.

So to continue at median difficulty for a month, would require 3.45B coins sitting idly until they were used to tithe, then recycled and waiting another 30 days to tithe again.  This is more than the current supply.

If that is true, then to reach max difficulty, would require 92,000 tithes from 25,000 BBP stacks that were 60 days old.  In one day, that would mean you'd need 2.3B coins that had been idle for 2 months tithe, again beyond the current supply.

If this is incorrect (beyond the idea that some small percentage of tithes will be coming in below target difficulty and the actual numbers would be slightly smaller) please explain.

Is there a simulation that we could see as a Google Sheets and a chart? From using testnet, tithes and pog difficulty don't move linearly. If tithes are exhausted then min coin age and min coin value would come down until participants drive the difficulty back up. Do you consider a different set of parameters more optimal? I like linear because it is easy to explain to those curious. I'm not sure what the downside is... maybe giving too much reward w/ low buyer risk? Or difficulty that is too linear instead of logarithmic?

Someone on Discord asked me if there is risk of botnet again? If I recall right, CPID can't mine blocks sequentially? Testnet I think it was every other, prod is it every 4th (e.g. CPID a,b,c,d,a,b,c,d)?  So, if the proposal is for PoDC to go away, CPID will no longer be an external unique identifier (oracle?). So, do you have a plan for replacing CPID with something within the blockchain itself? I ask because PoG seems to only use blockchain data so the logical conclusion is that Proof of Bible Hash (modified Proof of Work) may be due for a similar enhancement?

Looking at the code, 'exec bankroll' does supposedly ignore the bankroll mask denominations and it does not look to have a flaw - you are supposed to do this and it skips by already denominated coins with the .001nnnnn suffix on them.

Can you please give me the txid of the flawed 'exec bankroll' transaction and let me analyze it?

(One that spent a denomination coin).

Thank you none the less for a reply.  But you have yet to address the supply vs median difficulty issue. And that shows one area where PoG needs at a minimum more revision.

I'm confused where objective discussion qualifies as FUD, yes I'm afraid this will damage BBP, yes I'm uncertain how PoG will suddenly bring in an influx of users and yes I'm in doubt it is ready to be in main net, but it is.  So at least I've cleared that up.

I'm not one to talk about my personal life.  You are correct that I didn't participate in testnet, but in fact was barely active on any crypto things during a majority of the time due to family issues.  So thank you for your compassion and just chalking it to pride (which I'd gladly rather it been than what I was going through).

I support this coin, I support it so much I cannot sit by idly while I see something coming so counter productive I feel it will hurt our community, our value and our mission.

As far as an early vote, my point you are missing is you under almost any reasonable circumstance you can steer the vote to success or failure. What is hurting the coin in part is the uncertainty so remove that and just impose your design and we'll live with it.  You've been a prolific coder and done great things.  You'll get the coin through PoG one way or another.  

one by one? ufff, insane if i imagine that i will need to create 1000+ TXs manualy

hmm coin control is little bit crazy
i have ~ 500k already splitted to many piles
i sent another 500k, wait for 20+ confirmations and wants to split them
and exec bankroll 50 10000 takes already splitted piles with coin ages ~3 days and resplitted them
500k what i sent was untouched
next exec bankroll takes 500k pile finally

but how can i split only coins which i want? to not risk already gained coin ages?
if this will happen again with coin ages 30+ i will be very baad (when podc will be replaced with pog and i will be moving coins)

You can manually select coins in coin control and send a chuck to yourself of the correct denomination.  Repeat that process with the change each time until you've broken it up into the right denominations.  It's a bit more work but shouldn't take more than a few minutes and you'll get what you want.

hmm coin control is little bit crazy
i have ~ 500k already splitted to many piles
i sent another 500k, wait for 20+ confirmations and wants to split them
and exec bankroll 50 10000 takes already splitted piles with coin ages ~3 days and resplitted them
500k what i sent was untouched
next exec bankroll takes 500k pile finally

but how can i split only coins which i want? to not risk already gained coin ages?
if this will happen again with coin ages 30+ i will be very baad (when podc will be replaced with pog and i will be moving coins)

If I thought PoG would lead to a doubling of our active user base over the next year, I'd probably feel differently as user base would support the price and make up for the production cost deficiency.  But I don't see Pog as being a magic bullet that will fix everything.

So first, I'm not saying it's nefarious...that is you again putting words in other's mouths.  I'm saying this is a bad system for BBP as it is laid out (version two or three or whatever we're on that caps the max individual tithe at 10 BBP).  I'm not insulting you personally, I'm not calling you names.  I am saying I believe you're too close to the system to see it's faults and that is why I don't feel you voting with your massive voting block is good, even though I readily accept you have every right to do so.  But you can't call that vote democratic, it is at best a plutocracy.  But again, it is your right to vote if you see fit.

On PoG not locking coins:  I agree in legal terms, the coins are not locked.  To be clear, I'm not claiming that tithing funds are locked like in Masternodes or even Proof of Stake, that's why I've used "locked" in quotes.  Because even though it's not legally locked, it is in practice.  In a single day, to reach median difficulty, you need half the tithe cap.  Those tithes are supported by coins "stacks" of at least the minimum value of at least the minimum age.  So (under current standards) to reach median difficulty, 5000 tithes of 5 BBP, each of those tithes would be supported by a separate stack of coins of at least 12,500.  5000x12,5000 is 62.5M.  So every day, you need 62M coins that have done nothing for 30 days...which means in a 30 day period you're going to need 30 * 62M or 1.8B coins.

So I will say if you think we'll reach the daily cap under the current standards or especially the proposed standards then you've not run the numbers, as it is impossible until the daily emission deflates considerably.  That is not to say it could not happen once or twice in a blue moon, but there literally won't be enough supply to tithe the max over the long run.  

With the new standard, over time, the tithing would equalize, and over time would statistically see even tithing each day.  With a tithing cap of 92,000 (although it really would be 110,000 by the current emissions), to reach median difficulty you need 92,000/2 = 46,000 coins at median/5 = 9,200 tithes at 5 BBP that are from stacks of at least 12,500 coins and at least 30 days old.  That means every day, you need 115M coins that have done nothing for 30 days.  Over 30 days, means you need 3.45B coins to achieve an equalized system.

With the new standard, regardless of the return (which is a separate issue), to hit the max daily tithe, you would need 92,000/1 or 92,000 tithes at 1 BBP each from stacks of at least 25,000 aged at least 60 days, or 2.3B coins in one day.  Granted, there would be some larger tithes that sneak in at the difficulty breaks but there still won't be enough coins in the market to achieve this in a single day let alone do this more than once in a great while.

So, yes, some tithes would come in at lower difficulty, but the majority would come in closer to the target standards, which again, means there is not enough supply under this revision of PoG to achieve what you are saying.

And that brings the issue that hasn't been discussed, fairness of tithing.  There would be breaks where the difficulty drops and the max individual tithe spikes supported by fewer coins of younger age, but once these gaps are filled, those after them, in the same rewards blocks, would have in essence had a higher standard held against them...that is smaller max, larger stack of older age.  Over time this coudl

The bbp price shows how changes are received.

This is the effect of lack of patience in business. In these hard times for crypto, no one likes changes. At this price this coin has already landed in the crypto trash. Now, unfortunately, next superblock will be at 1sato.