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Topic: Bitcoin Doesn’t Exist, Or How Satoshi Nakamoto Tells Lies To People - page 5. (Read 1154 times)

full member
Activity: 1274
Merit: 115
★Bitvest.io★ Play Plinko or Invest!
I also doubt it before because I couldn't use it in real life and it is just on the internet and I need to convert it first or sell it to other people before becoming a real money for me.
But that is how it is on this planet everything has it's value depending on the person who see's it,
A piece of rare rock of fossil could be worthless for others but for some it is priceless collection.
If you would say that Bitcoin is an illusion then all the telco company that we are paying to provide internet and mobile loads are also selling lies as well because it is just all a program.
legendary
Activity: 3822
Merit: 2703
Evil beware: We have waffles!
Well, I have a few questions for you then. Who's the debtor and who's the creditor? Fiat is claim of the banks (central or commercial) and they withdraw it from circulation with every loan repayment. Bitcoin is claim on who, and who withdraws it from circulation?
Well you seem to have finally touched upon the crux of your debate: Where do the coins come from and who controls it?

The coins come the network - not a central authority. That means that (in the case of BTC) there is no central authority.

As for Fiat, I refer you to this article  Specifically this bit:
Quote
But an unstated, practical result of the Fed's bond purchases is that it creates money to finance the gigantic debt run up by Congress. The very idea of it tends to explode the heads of those who say dollars should come from work, savings and investment instead of thin air. In the age of a nearly $25 trillion national debt, such “sound money” concepts seem outdated – relics of a bygone era in which the value of a dollar once was based on a fixed amount of gold.

“What we’re working with now is fake money, a fake measuring rod,” longtime Federal Reserve critic and former Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul told USA TODAY. “It is unbelievable.”

In this case, the federal government's bank isn’t just creating massive amounts of dollars from scratch. The government also is, in effect, using those newly created dollars to pay down its own debt, this time at an unprecedented scale because of the economy's massive shutdown triggered by the pandemic.

This might sound like a financial fantasy: You mean we can pay our credit card bills by simply pressing a button?

Yes, the government can, unlike people and businesses, though it’s a little more complicated than that. The larger question is whether it's sound and sustainable.

With just a few keystrokes the Gov says, "We now have xxx more money and want you (banks) to purchase bonds against it". That is no different than an autonomous network saying "here are more coins based on the work you performed". Where there IS a difference is that the BTCnetwork will never produce more than 21 million BTC which of course means that whatever value people assign to BTC can never be diluted by the random production of more BTC out of thin air.
legendary
Activity: 2884
Merit: 1115
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
You cannot prove that you have obtained the software license if the software vendor closes the business.
But you can always prove that you are in control of the funds on the Bitcoin ledger, if you do not lose your private key  Smiley
Even if no one in this world can confirm that he sent you these funds.
You are not in control of funds. You are in control of a number. Number is an abstraction used to express the quantity of funds. So funds and number are two different things. In blockchain you have numbers not funds. Funds are fictional or nonexistent.

Yes, you are right that we are in control of a number. that's why we called it "Digital-Currency" or "e-currency". There are many more Digital-currency or e-currency are exist but the main difference with Bitcoin and Other Digital currency is "Decentralisation", it is not any Govt-issued asset or currency. Bitcoin is ruled by Decentralised authority without having any 3rd-party feature, this decentralization feature makes it a more demandable and valuable asset.

Now look at the world Banking system, when you deposit money into your bank account they just add a number as your balance, the funds are controlled by the bank and you just get a number as balance, in this case, you are not in control over your funds cause bank is not decentralised. But in the case of Bitcoin, it is only you who is in controlling both numbers & funds cause it is fully decentralised.
legendary
Activity: 1848
Merit: 1982
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This is actually Bitcoin. It is immaterial and intangible, but it does exist, and this is what Satoshi said and he did not lie to anyone. You deny the existence of Bitcoin because you cannot see it or touch it, but you believe in the existence of electricity even though you do not see it or touch it either??!!!
The era of money that can be touched by hand and carried from one place to another is over, when you own bitcoin you really don't own a tangible physical thing but only exists as data on the block chain and that's enough for everyone. As long as everyone recognizes it and accepts it as a means of payment, where is the problem then??
hero member
Activity: 2786
Merit: 657
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However, all the things just mentioned rest on the information that Bitcoin exists. While in reality, there is no such thing as Bitcoin.
You are not the first and you won't be the last person to think Bitcoin does not exist. The last time I checked Paypal ex-CEO even compare Bitcoin to his autograph and if Bitcoin is indeed an illusion then I will be glad to be stuck in it forever cause if the government could not fulfill their promises and also give people the truth worth of democracy while Bitcoin does.

I don't think anyone needs a babysitter Ir your opinion about Bitocoin here cause we are all aware of what Bitcoin.
jr. member
Activity: 98
Merit: 1
You cannot prove that you have obtained the software license if the software vendor closes the business.

But you can always prove that you are in control of the funds on the Bitcoin ledger, if you do not lose your private key  Smiley

Even if no one in this world can confirm that he sent you these funds.
You are not in control of funds. You are in control of a number. Number is an abstraction used to express the quantity of funds. So funds and number are two different things. In blockchain you have numbers not funds. Funds are fictional or nonexistent.
member
Activity: 162
Merit: 19
You cannot prove that you have obtained the software license if the software vendor closes the business.

But you can always prove that you are in control of the funds on the Bitcoin ledger, if you do not lose your private key  Smiley

Even if no one in this world can confirm that he sent you these funds.
jr. member
Activity: 98
Merit: 1
In the article they quoted in the top post (needs link to the original which is on a wordpress site), the OP posted:
Quote
As we can see, when people transfer data from one banking account to another, what they actually transfer is the ownership of debt. The quantity data itself only represents or quantifies the debt, and without debt, there wouldn’t be data. So in the case of banking accounts we have two things: digital data (quantities), and intangible asset (debt ownership). Debt ownership is the thing that actually exists. That’s why we call it an asset. Asset is something that exists.
Cryptocoins do the exact same thing - they are a record of holdings and debt against said holdings. Coins are transferred into and out of accounts holding them same as fiat is transferred into/out of bank accounts. Considering the global economy no longer pegs currency to any physical 'thing' -- historically a metal such as copper, silver or gold -- Fiat long ago became 'fake'. Fiat is now just numbers being shuffled around between accounts.

By omission (not saying that Fiat no longer based on a physical 'thing') regarding how the Fiat digital debt gets value, the OP says:
Quote
Well, they trade goods, services, or labor with the borrowers.
Guess what -- that applies equally to cryptocoins. Just to name a few merchants that accept BTC we have:
NewEgg
TigerDirect
FrozenCPU
Overstock.com and many many others. People can get paid for work using BTC if they choose. So, by the OP's own standards crypto is just as valid as Fiat.
I've heard a hundred different definitions of Bitcoin. This one is new. So Bitcoin is now debt, like fiat. Well, I have a few questions for you then. Who's the debtor and who's the creditor? Fiat is claim of the banks (central or commercial) and they withdraw it from circulation with every loan repayment. Bitcoin is claim on who, and who withdraws it from circulation?

It seems that every person has their own definition of Bitcoin. That's understandable given that Bitcoin doesn't exist and everyone just uses their imagination to describe Bitcoin in whatever way that is convenient for them.
jr. member
Activity: 98
Merit: 1
Do you need to write such a big wall of text in order to explain something that simple?
Sometimes I wonder if all those FUD accounts on the forum are just alt accounts to one person.
Why do you even care?If you are thinking that Bitcoin doesn't exist,then OK,just deal with it and move on with your life.This topic has been explained before.There's no reason for us to explain it again.
If you were scammed and you've lost your Bitcoins,just move on.I believe that most of the FUDsters in the BTC community are people,who lost money.That's why they are bitter about Bitcoin.
I don't "think", but I know Bitcoin doesn't exist. It is a fact it doesn't exist. You want it simple? Ok. In the blockchain you have quantity. Quantity is defined as the amount of something. If quantity in the blockchain is Bitcoin then it follows that Bitcoin is the quantity and quantity is Bitcoin. Which is nonsense because in that case Bitcoin would be defined as reference to itself: "Bitcoin is the amount of Bitcoin". And this is obviously nonsensical. So, if in the blockchain we have quantity then outside the blockchain there must be something called Bitcoin that has this quantity. But except quantities, address holders own nothing. Or simply put: Bitcoin doesn't exist.

Are you sure you are 1 person Because you are not actually 1 person you are 37 trillion cells  therefore you cannot be one person that can refer to itself and count therefore you don't exist.  (no bitcoin isn't conscious)


See how fast I took your Silly argument apart?   Using your own Childish logic.  

You seem incapable of learning.  Your ability to use logic is poor.  Do you even exist or are you just a bot?  You keep repeating the same argument and still don't understand that Love doesn't exist either Or Time for that matter.  If you Are Human then you must either acknowledge that Love and Time do exist thus rendering all your Idiot posting null and void.

Or you are a bot and bots don't learn much or at all.
If you remove me and leave only quantity, either 1 or 37 trillion what do you have? Well, you have number referred to nothing. That's quantity in the blockchain. Number referred to nothing. When you transfer quantity to your address you own xx pieces of nothingness. And that nothingness is called "bitcoin". Thanks for proving my point.

Do acknowledge the existence of time?   If the answer is yes then your argument is invalid. And if the answer is no that time does not exist then you cannot type anything to reply to this. That would violate the non-existence of time.   
You cannot refute an argument by talking nonsense. You refute it by proving that premises are false or that the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises.
sr. member
Activity: 333
Merit: 506
If you remove me and leave only quantity, either 1 or 37 trillion what do you have? Well, you have number referred to nothing. That's quantity in the blockchain. Number referred to nothing. When you transfer quantity to your address you own xx pieces of nothingness. And that nothingness is called "bitcoin". Thanks for proving my point.


You have a ship named Theseus.

At what point is a sand pile not a pile? One grain of sand? Two? Eight?

At what point are you no longer you? I'm sure there's some limit between 1 and 37 trillion, but I couldn't tell you what that limit is.

If we accept that two grains of sand are not a sand pile, then two grains of sand are nothing in sand pile terms. Also, you are nothing in the units of sand piles. But if I write my bitcoin address in sand piles, then it is that number of sand piles used, and therefore greater.

Saying bitcoin is nothing is like saying your passwords don't exist. If your passwords don't exist, then please post all of the passwords to all of your accounts here.
legendary
Activity: 3822
Merit: 2703
Evil beware: We have waffles!
In the article they quoted in the top post (needs link to the original which is on a wordpress site), the OP posted:
Quote
As we can see, when people transfer data from one banking account to another, what they actually transfer is the ownership of debt. The quantity data itself only represents or quantifies the debt, and without debt, there wouldn’t be data. So in the case of banking accounts we have two things: digital data (quantities), and intangible asset (debt ownership). Debt ownership is the thing that actually exists. That’s why we call it an asset. Asset is something that exists.
Cryptocoins do the exact same thing - they are a record of holdings and debt against said holdings. Coins are transferred into and out of accounts holding them same as fiat is transferred into/out of bank accounts. Considering the global economy no longer pegs currency to any physical 'thing' -- historically a metal such as copper, silver or gold -- Fiat long ago became 'fake'. Fiat is now just numbers being shuffled around between accounts.

By omission (not saying that Fiat no longer based on a physical 'thing') regarding how the Fiat digital debt gets value, the OP says:
Quote
Well, they trade goods, services, or labor with the borrowers.
Guess what -- that applies equally to cryptocoins. Just to name a few merchants that accept BTC we have:
NewEgg
TigerDirect
FrozenCPU
Overstock.com and many many others. People can get paid for work using BTC if they choose. So, by the OP's own standards crypto is just as valid as Fiat.
member
Activity: 289
Merit: 40
Do you need to write such a big wall of text in order to explain something that simple?
Sometimes I wonder if all those FUD accounts on the forum are just alt accounts to one person.
Why do you even care?If you are thinking that Bitcoin doesn't exist,then OK,just deal with it and move on with your life.This topic has been explained before.There's no reason for us to explain it again.
If you were scammed and you've lost your Bitcoins,just move on.I believe that most of the FUDsters in the BTC community are people,who lost money.That's why they are bitter about Bitcoin.
I don't "think", but I know Bitcoin doesn't exist. It is a fact it doesn't exist. You want it simple? Ok. In the blockchain you have quantity. Quantity is defined as the amount of something. If quantity in the blockchain is Bitcoin then it follows that Bitcoin is the quantity and quantity is Bitcoin. Which is nonsense because in that case Bitcoin would be defined as reference to itself: "Bitcoin is the amount of Bitcoin". And this is obviously nonsensical. So, if in the blockchain we have quantity then outside the blockchain there must be something called Bitcoin that has this quantity. But except quantities, address holders own nothing. Or simply put: Bitcoin doesn't exist.

Are you sure you are 1 person Because you are not actually 1 person you are 37 trillion cells  therefore you cannot be one person that can refer to itself and count therefore you don't exist.  (no bitcoin isn't conscious)


See how fast I took your Silly argument apart?   Using your own Childish logic.  

You seem incapable of learning.  Your ability to use logic is poor.  Do you even exist or are you just a bot?  You keep repeating the same argument and still don't understand that Love doesn't exist either Or Time for that matter.  If you Are Human then you must either acknowledge that Love and Time do exist thus rendering all your Idiot posting null and void.

Or you are a bot and bots don't learn much or at all.
If you remove me and leave only quantity, either 1 or 37 trillion what do you have? Well, you have number referred to nothing. That's quantity in the blockchain. Number referred to nothing. When you transfer quantity to your address you own xx pieces of nothingness. And that nothingness is called "bitcoin". Thanks for proving my point.

Do acknowledge the existence of time?   If the answer is yes then your argument is invalid. And if the answer is no that time does not exist then you cannot type anything to reply to this. That would violate the non-existence of time.   
jr. member
Activity: 98
Merit: 1
Do you need to write such a big wall of text in order to explain something that simple?
Sometimes I wonder if all those FUD accounts on the forum are just alt accounts to one person.
Why do you even care?If you are thinking that Bitcoin doesn't exist,then OK,just deal with it and move on with your life.This topic has been explained before.There's no reason for us to explain it again.
If you were scammed and you've lost your Bitcoins,just move on.I believe that most of the FUDsters in the BTC community are people,who lost money.That's why they are bitter about Bitcoin.
I don't "think", but I know Bitcoin doesn't exist. It is a fact it doesn't exist. You want it simple? Ok. In the blockchain you have quantity. Quantity is defined as the amount of something. If quantity in the blockchain is Bitcoin then it follows that Bitcoin is the quantity and quantity is Bitcoin. Which is nonsense because in that case Bitcoin would be defined as reference to itself: "Bitcoin is the amount of Bitcoin". And this is obviously nonsensical. So, if in the blockchain we have quantity then outside the blockchain there must be something called Bitcoin that has this quantity. But except quantities, address holders own nothing. Or simply put: Bitcoin doesn't exist.

Are you sure you are 1 person Because you are not actually 1 person you are 37 trillion cells  therefore you cannot be one person that can refer to itself and count therefore you don't exist.  (no bitcoin isn't conscious)


See how fast I took your Silly argument apart?   Using your own Childish logic.  

You seem incapable of learning.  Your ability to use logic is poor.  Do you even exist or are you just a bot?  You keep repeating the same argument and still don't understand that Love doesn't exist either Or Time for that matter.  If you Are Human then you must either acknowledge that Love and Time do exist thus rendering all your Idiot posting null and void.

Or you are a bot and bots don't learn much or at all.
If you remove me and leave only quantity, either 1 or 37 trillion what do you have? Well, you have number referred to nothing. That's quantity in the blockchain. Number referred to nothing. When you transfer quantity to your address you own xx pieces of nothingness. And that nothingness is called "bitcoin". Thanks for proving my point.
member
Activity: 289
Merit: 40
Do you need to write such a big wall of text in order to explain something that simple?
Sometimes I wonder if all those FUD accounts on the forum are just alt accounts to one person.
Why do you even care?If you are thinking that Bitcoin doesn't exist,then OK,just deal with it and move on with your life.This topic has been explained before.There's no reason for us to explain it again.
If you were scammed and you've lost your Bitcoins,just move on.I believe that most of the FUDsters in the BTC community are people,who lost money.That's why they are bitter about Bitcoin.
I don't "think", but I know Bitcoin doesn't exist. It is a fact it doesn't exist. You want it simple? Ok. In the blockchain you have quantity. Quantity is defined as the amount of something. If quantity in the blockchain is Bitcoin then it follows that Bitcoin is the quantity and quantity is Bitcoin. Which is nonsense because in that case Bitcoin would be defined as reference to itself: "Bitcoin is the amount of Bitcoin". And this is obviously nonsensical. So, if in the blockchain we have quantity then outside the blockchain there must be something called Bitcoin that has this quantity. But except quantities, address holders own nothing. Or simply put: Bitcoin doesn't exist.

Are you sure you are 1 person Because you are not actually 1 person you are 37 trillion cells  therefore you cannot be one person that can refer to itself and count therefore you don't exist.  (no bitcoin isn't conscious)


See how fast I took your Silly argument apart?   Using your own Childish logic.   

You seem incapable of learning.  Your ability to use logic is poor.  Do you even exist or are you just a bot?  You keep repeating the same argument and still don't understand that Love doesn't exist either Or Time for that matter.  If you Are Human then you must either acknowledge that Love and Time do exist thus rendering all your Idiot posting null and void.

Or you are a bot and bots don't learn much or at all.
legendary
Activity: 3822
Merit: 2703
Evil beware: We have waffles!
Frankly, I think the OP is fake and does not exist. After all, using their own circular reasoning their only 'proof of existence' is the bits & bytes stored here in the Forum. The OP could well be just a sophisticated AI conversation program such as talked about here being ran by some grad student as part of their thesis...

Also, their opening post is just a rehash of one that was put up a few days ago titled "Fun fact: Bitcoin doesn't exist, only fake quantity data" which was deleted by the mods. You might want to include the link to original article (which the other post had)...

jr. member
Activity: 98
Merit: 1
Do you need to write such a big wall of text in order to explain something that simple?
Sometimes I wonder if all those FUD accounts on the forum are just alt accounts to one person.
Why do you even care?If you are thinking that Bitcoin doesn't exist,then OK,just deal with it and move on with your life.This topic has been explained before.There's no reason for us to explain it again.
If you were scammed and you've lost your Bitcoins,just move on.I believe that most of the FUDsters in the BTC community are people,who lost money.That's why they are bitter about Bitcoin.
I don't "think", but I know Bitcoin doesn't exist. It is a fact it doesn't exist. You want it simple? Ok. In the blockchain you have quantity. Quantity is defined as the amount of something. If quantity in the blockchain is Bitcoin then it follows that Bitcoin is the quantity and quantity is Bitcoin. Which is nonsense because in that case Bitcoin would be defined as reference to itself: "Bitcoin is the amount of Bitcoin". And this is obviously nonsensical. So, if in the blockchain we have quantity then outside the blockchain there must be something called Bitcoin that has this quantity. But except quantities, address holders own nothing. Or simply put: Bitcoin doesn't exist.
jr. member
Activity: 37
Merit: 2
A lie has been told hundreds of times, and everyone will think it is true. I don’t reject this view. However, there are technical geeks and well-known economists, as well as celebrity-driven Bitcoin, but it is the consensus of the world. You are Unstoppable, when the trend comes, you can only follow it.
legendary
Activity: 3542
Merit: 1965
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform

BTC is not created out of thin air. There is no one out there who will just pop out and print BTC to paste it into the blockchain. BTC is being mined using the devices solving hashes crunching numbers and consuming energy. How is that a lie when banks are already adopting it?

Well, you still could say it's a Ponzi but there is no one here that will ever think Satoshi can print more BTC just as the FED are doing which is a bigger Ponzi. It will always be 21M BTC ever.



Of course BTC is not created out of thin air given it's nonexistent. But quantity data on nonexistent BTC is created out of thin air. The fact the creating is done after POW is like writing letter on a piece of paper after one does hundred push-up, and then claim that the letter is not created out of thin air. It is. Letters and numbers are always created out of thin air. Regarding scarcity. Only existent things can be scarce. If you put a limit in an algorithm to 21 million this is just an arbitrary decision. You could have put it to 21 trillion. It doesn't matter. It's just numbers. And numbers can go to infinity. Numbers, that is, quantities have nothing to do with scarcity. And all you have in blockchain is quantities.

It is very obvious that you do not understand the basics about how consensus work and how that is applied to the decision making regarding the coin cap. You also do not understand the "value" of digital goods and services, so you will have a difficulty understanding why people are willing to pay "physical" fiat money for that.

The younger generation grew up with digital items and they know why people will pay thousands of Dollars for a limited edition Counter-Strike weapon or even just a skin for a weapon. This is also why eight "digital" lots sold for a combined $1.5 million on the gaming platform Axie Infinity.

Do you even know how difficult it was to implement "SegWit" and why there was a Bitcoin Cash fork? (Imagine trying to convince full nodes to increase the Bitcoin coincap)  Grin Grin Grin
sr. member
Activity: 1274
Merit: 293
Do you need to write such a big wall of text in order to explain something that simple?
Sometimes I wonder if all those FUD accounts on the forum are just alt accounts to one person.
Why do you even care?If you are thinking that Bitcoin doesn't exist,then OK,just deal with it and move on with your life.This topic has been explained before.There's no reason for us to explain it again.
If you were scammed and you've lost your Bitcoins,just move on.I believe that most of the FUDsters in the BTC community are people,who lost money.That's why they are bitter about Bitcoin.
I didn't read it but I feel like OP was just explaining about how bitcoin isn't real which is pretty stupid and obvious because bitcoin isn't real in a sense that you can touch it physically. Also, if OP is spreading FUD, I don't think that OP has succeeded because, no one in their right mind is going to waste their time reading that Great Wall of Text. And @davis196 is right OP, why worry about it? Let the people bask in the illusion.
hero member
Activity: 3192
Merit: 939
Do you need to write such a big wall of text in order to explain something that simple?
Sometimes I wonder if all those FUD accounts on the forum are just alt accounts to one person.
Why do you even care?If you are thinking that Bitcoin doesn't exist,then OK,just deal with it and move on with your life.This topic has been explained before.There's no reason for us to explain it again.
If you were scammed and you've lost your Bitcoins,just move on.I believe that most of the FUDsters in the BTC community are people,who lost money.That's why they are bitter about Bitcoin.
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