Topic: Bitcoin is being killed by governments and nobody seems to care! - page 10. (Read 8697 times)
Ripple sounds like a wet fart.. I don't think anyone is fooled.
If government wanted to hurt Bitcoin, they could create some shadow organization that claims to be open-source virtual currency but is really just a shell for consuming bitcoins and undermining the faith in the system.
Hmmm, sounds a lot like Ripple. . .
Hmmm, sounds a lot like Ripple. . .
Each time Governments fudge up an economy; or topslices a county's wealth; each time they impose themselves on their populations, they only encourage people to look to alternatives.
Each time Governments try to fight cryptocurrencies, they help to encourage people to think about what money is relative to wealth.
The worse-best action Governments could take, is buying up Bitcoins with a mind to scare the market later but that would only make their position worse. Those who did sell their coins would very likely only then come back later and buy more coins, having taken some profit from that investment. Probably those Governments that are limited by legal frameworks, might not be able to waste taxpayers money buying into the market they don't like. Perhaps then in frustration - or in inspiration, they might create their own cryptocurrencies and compete.
The Governments have themselves in a quicksand of their own making - having shat on us for so long they are lacking a sound foundation; their lack of imaginative ways out, is only matched by creative solutions from alternatives like Bitcoin.
Some problems are too big for Governments to solve and the crises we face will likely only be resolved by society widely; it seems rather less likely the crises will ever be solved by that which caused them in the first place.
Big Government; Big Fail.
btw - I thought btc-e was Bulgarian ~ bulgarian trading exchange.
Each time Governments try to fight cryptocurrencies, they help to encourage people to think about what money is relative to wealth.
The worse-best action Governments could take, is buying up Bitcoins with a mind to scare the market later but that would only make their position worse. Those who did sell their coins would very likely only then come back later and buy more coins, having taken some profit from that investment. Probably those Governments that are limited by legal frameworks, might not be able to waste taxpayers money buying into the market they don't like. Perhaps then in frustration - or in inspiration, they might create their own cryptocurrencies and compete.
The Governments have themselves in a quicksand of their own making - having shat on us for so long they are lacking a sound foundation; their lack of imaginative ways out, is only matched by creative solutions from alternatives like Bitcoin.
Some problems are too big for Governments to solve and the crises we face will likely only be resolved by society widely; it seems rather less likely the crises will ever be solved by that which caused them in the first place.
Big Government; Big Fail.
btw - I thought btc-e was Bulgarian ~ bulgarian trading exchange.
It doesn't get much more digital than that.
It does, my friend. It does. The decision of how many numbers should be created in some bank's computer is taken by some very real objects or rather subjects, not by some open source network protocol! And those real object/subjects will do whatever they can do to defend the privilege they have.It doesn't matter what is 'explicitly forbidden' by some government
It is not "some" government. It is every government on this planet.Face it! You can not legally create and operate p2p exchange for fiat currencies. Existing laws and regulations in every country are all targeted to prevent exactly this from happening.
Fiat currencies are not digital objects. They are real objects.
You are mistaken, sir. More than 99% of all dollars and euros in existence are merely numbers in some bank's computer. It doesn't get much more digital than that.And unlike gold or bitcoins, they can even be generated in any desired amount, at literally the press of a button. How 'real' is that
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Any attempt to "map" such objects into the digital world is explicitly forbidden if you are not labeled a money service business that needs respective license from the gatekeepers!
Who cares. Peer2peer exchange infrastructure is coming soon. It doesn't matter what is 'explicitly forbidden' by some government, or how they label you. Decentralized peer2peer communication is beyond control of authority. when will the p2p exchange be built?
The answer is easy. Never!P2p exchanges are only possible if you exchange p2p currencies. Fiat is meant to be centralized as much as possible. That is, if you attempt to handle fiat in p2p way you'll break a dozen of laws and regulations in every country!
Right, but you can make a "currency" out of any unique digital object. Therefore, theoretically, you can trade anything digital.
Fiat currencies are not digital objects. They are real objects. Any attempt to "map" such objects into the digital world is explicitly forbidden if you are not labeled a money service business that needs respective license from the gatekeepers!
Why WOULDN'T you use them?
Because OKPay. 
This is a theory and practice type of statement.
If I want to use bitcoin as a p2p payment system, I need to turn what value I have, which is in fiat, into bitcoin before I do anything. The exchange rate that I get for my fiat is what puts an exchange value on the goods I want to buy. So if I am spending an extra $8 on every bitcoin, then my goods are going to cost an extra $8 per bitcoin - compared to buying them with fiat in the first place!
Its the whole concept of financial regulations which created a need for bitcoin in the first place. If I have to tell a regulator who I am, what I am going to use my money on, and produce an audit trail to prove it, its going to take time. The only advantage left for bitcoin is the speed of making a purchase, and if the exchange transfer is taking forever, then I might be better off using fiat.
And, in the political paper shufflers world, that is exactly how you kill a competitor. Not through outright banning legislation, but through using paperwork treacle. It means they can always hold their hands up to any accusations of killing off with a simple it wasn't us, it was the free market that didn't want it.
That value, the oppurtunity to cash your $, is a limited time offer, and by definition, it will end before we expect it to.
The fall of the dollar has been eagerly anticpated.
when will the p2p exchange be built?
The answer is easy. Never!P2p exchanges are only possible if you exchange p2p currencies. Fiat is meant to be centralized as much as possible. That is, if you attempt to handle fiat in p2p way you'll break a dozen of laws and regulations in every country!
Right, but you can make a "currency" out of any unique digital object. Therefore, theoretically, you can trade anything digital.
Why the hell would you go for a Russian exchange
Because it is second largest to MtGox.And it has a giant history of being reputable, and always working, and not going down. Why WOULDN'T you use them?
Well killed is a strong word, but sending people to lobby govt. seems counter-productive for advocates of a disruptive network technology that was invented to specifically to route around damage caused by previous regulations interfering with the natural efficient value exchange networks....
... unless they are lobbying to remove previous regulations to make the system environment freer then all they can hope to achieve is to create more obstacles that the next iteration will need to route around. We can play this game forever, why prolong it?
It seems like some people are determined not to learn ... more regulations are going to ultimately achieve nothing, if nothing else bitcoin must bear witness to that?
... unless they are lobbying to remove previous regulations to make the system environment freer then all they can hope to achieve is to create more obstacles that the next iteration will need to route around. We can play this game forever, why prolong it?
It seems like some people are determined not to learn ... more regulations are going to ultimately achieve nothing, if nothing else bitcoin must bear witness to that?
when will the p2p exchange be built?
The answer is easy. Never!P2p exchanges are only possible if you exchange p2p currencies. Fiat is meant to be centralized as much as possible. That is, if you attempt to handle fiat in p2p way you'll break a dozen of laws and regulations in every country!
BTC-e have just switched on their OKPAY service again for a few days, to allow people to move their cash into their exchange, before they switch off the service for another 2 months.
We are seeing all the various financial services throughout the world getting their cogs spun up to make the movement of fiat to a bitcoin exchange so difficult that without already having your cash in the exchange, you can't take advantage of any movements in value. If you do want to move your fiat into bitcoins the whole process is taking longer and longer - last time it took me 2 weeks.
I don't expect US users to note how difficult it is for the rest of the world, but at this rate its going to be impossible to get enough bitcoins / altcoins into the mainstream to gain enough traction to make any success happen.
Anyone else having this problem, or am I just looking in the wrong place? - BTW, I really don't like MTGox, I don't trust them, and to only use that service to get your bitcoins seems to defeat to object of having them!
We are seeing all the various financial services throughout the world getting their cogs spun up to make the movement of fiat to a bitcoin exchange so difficult that without already having your cash in the exchange, you can't take advantage of any movements in value. If you do want to move your fiat into bitcoins the whole process is taking longer and longer - last time it took me 2 weeks.
I don't expect US users to note how difficult it is for the rest of the world, but at this rate its going to be impossible to get enough bitcoins / altcoins into the mainstream to gain enough traction to make any success happen.
Anyone else having this problem, or am I just looking in the wrong place? - BTW, I really don't like MTGox, I don't trust them, and to only use that service to get your bitcoins seems to defeat to object of having them!
How about polish exchange?
EURO in english
https://eur.bitcurex.com/
PLN currency
https://pln.bitcurex.com/
Works very well, way faster than Mtgox. IBAN/SWIFT transfers in 1 day
Since when does the success of Bitcoin depend on being able to speculate on its value? Bitcoin as a p2p payment system doesn't depend on that and neither should Bitcoin as a currency. It's success shouldn't depend on being able to trade it like a commodity.
Movements of conventional currencies are already regulated and its those regulations which are affecting Bitcoin exchanges - they're not new regulations. Exchanges know those regulations exist and know they'll be affected by them. If they don't have the capacity to do that, then perhaps they shouldn't operate a financial service.
Movements of conventional currencies are already regulated and its those regulations which are affecting Bitcoin exchanges - they're not new regulations. Exchanges know those regulations exist and know they'll be affected by them. If they don't have the capacity to do that, then perhaps they shouldn't operate a financial service.
This is a theory and practice type of statement.
If I want to use bitcoin as a p2p payment system, I need to turn what value I have, which is in fiat, into bitcoin before I do anything. The exchange rate that I get for my fiat is what puts an exchange value on the goods I want to buy. So if I am spending an extra $8 on every bitcoin, then my goods are going to cost an extra $8 per bitcoin - compared to buying them with fiat in the first place!
Its the whole concept of financial regulations which created a need for bitcoin in the first place. If I have to tell a regulator who I am, what I am going to use my money on, and produce an audit trail to prove it, its going to take time. The only advantage left for bitcoin is the speed of making a purchase, and if the exchange transfer is taking forever, then I might be better off using fiat.
And, in the political paper shufflers world, that is exactly how you kill a competitor. Not through outright banning legislation, but through using paperwork treacle. It means they can always hold their hands up to any accusations of killing off with a simple it wasn't us, it was the free market that didn't want it.
Since when does the success of Bitcoin depend on being able to speculate on its value? Bitcoin as a p2p payment system doesn't depend on that and neither should Bitcoin as a currency. It's success shouldn't depend on being able to trade it like a commodity.
Movements of conventional currencies are already regulated and its those regulations which are affecting Bitcoin exchanges - they're not new regulations. Exchanges know those regulations exist and know they'll be affected by them. If they don't have the capacity to do that, then perhaps they shouldn't operate a financial service.
Movements of conventional currencies are already regulated and its those regulations which are affecting Bitcoin exchanges - they're not new regulations. Exchanges know those regulations exist and know they'll be affected by them. If they don't have the capacity to do that, then perhaps they shouldn't operate a financial service.
Both bitstamp.net and bitcoin.de have their fair share of critics
I'm curious, what are the most common complaints? I've had nothing but positive experiences with both (and traded quite some volume so far) but that's just me.Quote
and their prices do seem very high.
I'm curious, can you do a comparison of bitstamp.net and bitcoin.de's fees with those of BTC-e, including the deposit / withdrawal fees for fiat? Last time I checked, even just the ridiculous OKPay fees where already 10x as high as the total trade cost at other exchanges.Quote
I also still need to transfer my sterling into something else before I can use them, so I am no better off!
Bitstamp.net only does USD but uses very reasonable conversion rates to other fiat currencies. Seriously, have you tried them?Quote
Besides, I trust BTC-e far more than I do any of the other names in the exchange universe at the moment.
Why? (Note, they're Russian! 
) I also still need to transfer my sterling into something else before I can use them, so I am no better off!
You mean you have GBP and want to purchase bitcoins?
How about sending them to CurrencyFair and then withdrawing EUR to your BITSTAMP account? (Just like you could do with TransferWise before TransferWise went away).
Isn't Webmoney.ru an exchange for bitcoin now?
I am depositing via SEPA to Bitstamp and it takes me ~24 hours every time, plus it costs me only flat €1.25 regardless of amount. It's not hard at all to buy bitcoins in Europe.
MtGox problems have nothing to do with government trying to shut down bitcoin, it's rather they try to shut down money laundering and black market money transfers - and everyone transferring fiat money without proper paperwork/licenses is breaking the law and suspected of these activities. This is where MtGox problems come from.
BTC-E deposit problems are similar - they care even less for paperwork and regulations so most of legitimate ways of depositing money are shut down for them. I'm not even sure if it's a registered company, at least I can't find any company details or even mention in their ToS or anywhere else on their site.
The whole thing of “bitcoin is being killed by governments” it's just a “kids were playing real money and adults catch them” issue, nothing else. If they wanted to kill bitcoin, they would hit harder. What they do is only to try to shut down unregulated mass fiat money transfers.
MtGox problems have nothing to do with government trying to shut down bitcoin, it's rather they try to shut down money laundering and black market money transfers - and everyone transferring fiat money without proper paperwork/licenses is breaking the law and suspected of these activities. This is where MtGox problems come from.
BTC-E deposit problems are similar - they care even less for paperwork and regulations so most of legitimate ways of depositing money are shut down for them. I'm not even sure if it's a registered company, at least I can't find any company details or even mention in their ToS or anywhere else on their site.
The whole thing of “bitcoin is being killed by governments” it's just a “kids were playing real money and adults catch them” issue, nothing else. If they wanted to kill bitcoin, they would hit harder. What they do is only to try to shut down unregulated mass fiat money transfers.
Governments are shooting themselves in the foot when they clamp down on bitcoin exchanges.
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