Bitcoin is Dead - page 2. | Bitcointalksearch.org

fxj

newbie

Activity: 28

Merit: 0

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on July 07, 2013, 06:12:27 PM

Everything is ASICable...
It just requires enough incentive to be profitable

DeathAndTaxes is correct, 128k per thread is not very much as such.

And to answer my follow-up question myself, increasing scrypt security would of course make it more difficult for everyone (i e current mining gear, not only ASICs), so not a good idea if the point is to prolong GPU mining as a feasible alternative.

But returning to the initial claim of this thread (as I interpreted it) - I still wouldn't say that ASICs for BTC and ASICs for scrypt based coins means the same thing. I may need to do the math, but shooting from the hip I don't think that a "scrypt ASIC" could turn things over the way BTC ASICs do, the reason for that view still being the memory intensive processes as per the scrypt design (be it with a downsized version of the security settings).

So it is exactly the improved profitability of a scrypt coin ASIC that I doubt...

jackjack

legendary

Activity: 1176

Merit: 1255

May Bitcoin be touched by his Noodly Appendage

Quote from: fxj on July 08, 2013, 06:21:07 AM

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on July 07, 2013, 06:12:27 PM

Scrypt doesn't use a massive amount of RAM unless you consider 128KB (yes Kilobytes not Megabytes or Gigabytes) a "massive amount".

Even full strength scrypt doesn't use "massive" amounts just enough that CPU with their significant cache are better optimized than other choices. The scrypt used in litecoin is significantly crippled. The low security (realtime) settings for Scrypt recommend by the author are 2^14, 8, 1 and the high security settings 2^20, 8,1. Litecoin uses 2^10, 1, 1 making it roughly 100x less memory intensive then real time scrypt recommendations and ~8,000x less memory intensive than high security scrypt recommendations.

Thanks for pointing this out. So are you suggesting that scrypt based coins with the current design are - at least in theory - more or less equally susceptible to the ASIC technology as SHA256 coins? And if so, wouldnt it be "easy" to just ramp up the scrypt security settings in order to keep ASICs effectively at bay, or would that cause other complications?

Everything is ASICable...
It just requires enough incentive to be profitable

fxj

newbie

Activity: 28

Merit: 0

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on July 07, 2013, 06:12:27 PM

Scrypt doesn't use a massive amount of RAM unless you consider 128KB (yes Kilobytes not Megabytes or Gigabytes) a "massive amount".

Even full strength scrypt doesn't use "massive" amounts just enough that CPU with their significant cache are better optimized than other choices. The scrypt used in litecoin is significantly crippled. The low security (realtime) settings for Scrypt recommend by the author are 2^14, 8, 1 and the high security settings 2^20, 8,1. Litecoin uses 2^10, 1, 1 making it roughly 100x less memory intensive then real time scrypt recommendations and ~8,000x less memory intensive than high security scrypt recommendations.

Thanks for pointing this out. So are you suggesting that scrypt based coins with the current design are - at least in theory - more or less equally susceptible to the ASIC technology as SHA256 coins? And if so, wouldnt it be "easy" to just ramp up the scrypt security settings in order to keep ASICs effectively at bay, or would that cause other complications?

gambit1

hero member

Activity: 980

Merit: 508

Bitcoin is not dead. Bitcoin is life! Angry

GigaDice

full member

Activity: 224

Merit: 100

Bitcoin is far from being dead, we're just experiencing coming off a bubble. We have still yet to break into mainstream use.

petterj

newbie

Activity: 8

Merit: 0

yes, indeed.

Maxou

newbie

Activity: 13

Merit: 0

Quote from: meekstav876 on July 07, 2013, 05:46:33 PM

It's not dead yet.

+1

DeathAndTaxes

donator

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1079

Gerald Davis

Quote from: fxj on July 07, 2013, 03:49:02 PM

Quote from: cryptonibb on July 02, 2013, 12:37:57 PM

Well, I see the same happening to LiteCoin eventually.

The effect of ASiCs on BTC is obvious. But how do you see the same happening with scrypt based altcoins?

Scrypt is designed to be memory intensive, in order to exponentially increase the cost of breaking the encryption. This of course is the reason for the litecoin designers to pick scrypt instead of SHA256. I've seen people say that ASICs will eventually be pointed towards scrypt based altcoins as well. But throwing processing power on a scrypt problem won't be helpful, due to the mentioned need for massive RAM, so what would be the point?

Scrypt doesn't use a massive amount of RAM unless you consider 128KB (yes Kilobytes not Megabytes or Gigabytes) a "massive amount".

Even full strength scrypt doesn't use "massive" amounts just enough that CPU with their significant cache are better optimized than other choices. The scrypt used in litecoin is significantly crippled. The low security (realtime) settings for Scrypt recommend by the author are 2^14, 8, 1 and the high security settings 2^20, 8,1. Litecoin uses 2^10, 1, 1 making it roughly 100x less memory intensive then real time scrypt recommendations and ~8,000x less memory intensive than high security scrypt recommendations.

gambit1

hero member

Activity: 980

Merit: 508

1. I get bitcoins if I buy from Mtgox. I EARN INTERESTS.

Could I ask what you mean by that?

meekstav876

newbie

Activity: 28

Merit: 0

It's not dead yet.

bestmarketer004

newbie

Activity: 22

Merit: 0

It's now stable at $60 to $70.

A+S

newbie

Activity: 14

Merit: 0

Bitcoins is not dead... just the price is dropping after a big bubble burst!

Pastelarts

newbie

Activity: 42

Merit: 0

71.64 $ i want to down THIS FUCKING PRICE !

dazzle

newbie

Activity: 49

Merit: 0

You are totally missing the whole point of bitcoin, MR THREAD STARTER.

Bitcoins are earned NOT THROUGH MINING.

Open ur mind, and think outside the box:
1. I get bitcoins if I buy from Mtgox. I EARN INTERESTS.
2. I get bitcoins by doing online services. i EARN BITCOIN SALARY.
3. I get bitcoins by online donations. iEARN BITCOINS PASSIVELY.

...
4. I start to think about mining:
-I buy a new rig.
-I get frustrated by the price.
-I hope to get bitcoins.
-I start my new expensive dual 7990 HD Radeon rigs (around 46 of them, total hash rate is 100GHash/sec)
-I wait for a month.
-I scream "WTF!! OMG!! I only got 5000 USD for my 42,000 USD investment on hardware??!?"

-I sell all my equipment on the buy an sell section at half the price and go back to number 1.

Mr.Dreamanonym

newbie

Activity: 56

Merit: 0

71.49 USD ! ♥ TRADE ON !

fxj

newbie

Activity: 28

Merit: 0

Quote from: cryptonibb on July 02, 2013, 12:37:57 PM

Well, I see the same happening to LiteCoin eventually.

The effect of ASiCs on BTC is obvious. But how do you see the same happening with scrypt based altcoins?

Scrypt is designed to be memory intensive, in order to exponentially increase the cost of breaking the encryption. This of course is the reason for the litecoin designers to pick scrypt instead of SHA256. I've seen people say that ASICs will eventually be pointed towards scrypt based altcoins as well. But throwing processing power on a scrypt problem won't be helpful, due to the mentioned need for massive RAM, so what would be the point?

Which leaves the possibility of someone hoarding GPUs to dominate scrypt mining, but given the proliferation of GPUs throughout the world, and the associated cost for accumulating them en masse, that won't happen either.

boed

newbie

Activity: 11

Merit: 0

Quote from: krudkeeper on July 07, 2013, 01:03:58 PM

Bitcoin and Litecoin will be around for a long time... Just ride the waves and chill... Cool

Thats what I wanted to hear.

What will happen when BFL and Avalon get their new batches out? How much will the difficulty rise?
Will bitcoins end by the time they get these asic batches out?

Mr.Dreamanonym

newbie

Activity: 56

Merit: 0

Bitcoin not dead you UNDERSTAND ? !

krudkeeper

full member

Activity: 182

Merit: 100

Hodl regularly and often!

Bitcoin and Litecoin will be around for a long time... Just ride the waves and chill... Cool

monkofnothing

newbie

Activity: 36

Merit: 0

From what I understand the Asia's will mine any clone of the bitcoin. And you would stick to more memory and GPU rigs for litecoin clones. If I'm wrong I'm sure a correction is on the way.

Topic: Bitcoin is Dead - page 2. (Read 7684 times)