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Topic: Bitcoin is Dead - page 7. (Read 7742 times)

donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
July 03, 2013, 11:37:53 AM
#83
Most people will not be miners.   Most people don't mine gold.  Most people don't grow their own food.  Most people don't build their own cars.

Most people will not be miners.  Anyone who had a belief that the Bitcoin network would someday have billions of miners was simply delusional.  Reality is crashing into that delusion and that is why we get threads like this.

Decentralized doesn't require 100% of users to mine Bitcoin.  The reality is today many people don't mine.  Do you think most of the shops using Bitpay are also miners?  Anyone think namecheap has nothing better to do then build a bunch of GPU rigs in their datacenter?  I made enough from Bitcoin related services that it is now my sole employment and (I know this will be very difficult to comprehend) I don't mine.  My GPU rigs went dark in January.  Gavin collects a salary developing the client.   The list goes on and on. 

The idea that mining = Bitcoin is simply a delusion. 

Now Bitcoin does need to be decentralized.  It would be optimal to have four or five companies producing hardware competing on cost, efficiency, features, etc.  We aren't there yet.  BFL shares a lot of the blame for that.  They simply weren't ready in 2012 (lolz it is funny how not ready they were) to make the kind of promises they did.  That accelerated the time table.  People stopped working on FPGA and rushed ASIC plans.  Had BFL been even slightly more realistic about ASIC products the transistion would be be a little less rushed.  All that is water under the bridge though.

In time KnC, ASICMiner, BFL, Avalon, etc will all have sufficient capacity to have reasonable delivery timeframes.  New players will emerge, better tech will be developed, life will go on.  Not everyone will be a miner.  I was forced out of mining because of a lack of time and in hindsight it was the great.  Someday I will buy an ASIC rig, probably a small one (whatever that means in future hashing power) and just let it mine on p2pool.  It won't be a way to get rich, it won't be a hope that $1,000 in gear will someday make me a billionaire.  As long as it can break even and convert electricity into coins I will be happy.  I probably am not alone in that respect.  A lot of people have small realistic goals.  Thousands of people with modest amounts of hashing power will secure the network.   Now if you WANT to be a professional miner well the days of just buying 20 GPU from NewEgg and making a fortune are over (if they ever existed) it is going to require real capital, real resources, real commitment.  So those at that fork in the read think about what you want to do and be realistic about it.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 500
July 03, 2013, 10:50:59 AM
#82
Crytonibb, first of all miners are transaction auditors and they are being paid 25 Bitcoin to solve or audit a block of transactions using a computer. 2500 dollars. Think. ASIC miners are useless if we are going to uninstall our bitcoin clients. Stupid.

Really? You can't see the logic in that? Bitcoin was worth 10 dollars when only a few people were mining after it gain INTEREST by many more people it was speculated up. Now its going down to 82 dollars (last time I checked).

When people uninstall their wallets they're not buying or trading bitcoins and become uninterested in bitcoin.

Less people using bitcoin is bad all around for bitcoin.
full member
Activity: 146
Merit: 100
July 03, 2013, 08:15:09 AM
#81
Quote
And that is why bitcoin system is epic: greed improve the security

Nice quote Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1008
If you want to walk on water, get out of the boat
July 03, 2013, 08:13:04 AM
#80
Quote
The reality is most people mine for the money/bitcoins not to help keep the network secure, that's just a side thing.
Actually EVERYONE mine for the money/bitcoins.

That is why ASIC exists.

And that is why bitcoin system is epic: greed improve the security
newbie
Activity: 22
Merit: 0
July 03, 2013, 08:04:14 AM
#79
Just wondering why would they spent so much money to develop something that will kill the reason they spent the money to. Makes no sense. They want profit, not killing the coin. Perhaps mining as a hobby will be dead but not bitcoin. If something kills bitcoin will be the users trust gone.
newbie
Activity: 3
Merit: 0
July 03, 2013, 05:11:47 AM
#78
Regarding the fond idea of the winkelvoss twins.

Right now it seesm just a way to polster(?) their own portfolio to the point where they can turn their bitcoins into ready cash. They get laughed at by serious investors and i wouldnt trust them with anything. The little buzz it will create will dissipate rather soon
legendary
Activity: 1014
Merit: 1001
July 03, 2013, 04:58:18 AM
#77
Quote
...  because the best country in the world is the country that individual is happiest in. 
You mean Denmark, right?
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
July 03, 2013, 04:47:44 AM
#76
I dont think I would argue that case on here, you can literally go back and forth with dozens of pages filling up on reasons from both parties why some countries are better than others. Home is where the heart is, everyone has their own preference.

 There is no "best country in the world" because the best country in the world is the country that individual is happiest in. 

İ agree.

My issue is with the statement that the US is one of the least free countries in the world. İt's provided as is without a definition of freedom or evidence supporting it - ıf the poster really does believe that then i am curious how he / she reached this conclusion.
full member
Activity: 166
Merit: 100
July 03, 2013, 04:01:45 AM
#75
ASIC technology does not hurt bitcoin. It will make the network more secure in the long run.
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1280
May Bitcoin be touched by his Noodly Appendage
July 03, 2013, 02:49:51 AM
#74
tl;dr
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
July 03, 2013, 02:44:03 AM
#73
Crytonibb, first of all miners are transaction auditors and they are being paid 25 Bitcoin to solve or audit a block of transactions using a computer. 2500 dollars. Think. ASIC miners are useless if we are going to uninstall our bitcoin clients. Stupid.
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
July 02, 2013, 11:18:29 PM
#72
hmmm, something new to hear. Smiley

hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 500
July 02, 2013, 11:03:29 PM
#71
82 dollar bitcoin is now a reality.
newbie
Activity: 10
Merit: 0
July 02, 2013, 11:00:51 PM
#70
I'm sorry but I'm failing to understand the principle concept the OP is espousing. Let me see if this is approximately correct: because regular people can't mine bitcoins trust will be undermined and the whole network will die.

Why? How is this a scam? Some people have resources to mine and some don't (as is the natural order of everything). The P2P nature of the payment system itself, the rate at which coin is produced, the security of the network and your coins are still fine. You just can't profitably mine them yourself. So most of the coins will be mined in China...and? How does that affect me as a saver/spender of bitcoin? It doesn't as far as I can see. I can't print USD or mine gold or anything similar now and it doesn't affect my use of currency at all. I still receive and spend as I like.

If the argument is that 2-3 players will control the market? really? why? what about competition? if I see my neighbor making a fortune with his ASIC factory, won't I build one too? And as the market floods with ASIC devices, so what? the rate of production will remain constant as is algorithmically determined.

If however the OP is right that only a couple of makers will stranglehold bleeding edge technology and hoard it, then truly all the eggs are in one scary basket.


My point is not that. Mining got peoples interests, and that will be lost. Not the coin itself, what will be lost is the P2P system.

First you lose miners, then you lose the P2P advantage.

What you say about factories, may be in a normal unlimited market. Bitcoins are not unlimited, and it could go under before that ever happens, or it would be to late to make profitable devices in your factory.

Losing the P2P advantage of being a distributed network is a huge drawback.

Also, you assume everyone will get an ASIC device like going to a store. This was not true last year, its not true this year and probably will not be true next year.

The only ones making a profit with ASIC devices will the ones having at least XX devices ready to be hooked as soon as they can.

Who controls the ASIC chips, will control the supply chain and bitcoin mining.

You assume things in the future, while I assume things that are happening as we speak.

I hear you, but I guess I'm less worried about this monopolistic fragile state (despite the logical incentives you've laid out). Do we have any numbers on ASIC distribution/concentration?
newbie
Activity: 6
Merit: 0
July 02, 2013, 10:58:25 PM
#69
"Only the future knows what the future holds"

Such as the migration from cpu mining to gpu mining, ASIC is just another link in the chain, and history repeats itself again. the rich get richer because it takes money to make money.
newbie
Activity: 4
Merit: 0
July 02, 2013, 10:50:26 PM
#68
For now and for small gains. It's gonna be different in the future in my opinion.

What are the gains on a $100 GPU?  Mining was never intended to be a high profit, free moniez for everyone system.  The purpose of mining is to protect the network and miners are paid a fee for that service.  Mining is an almost perfect commodity and as such overtime the margins are going to be very low, especially as the risk premium declines.

Still the reality is you CAN get into ASIC mining. Maybe you don't like the return but that doesn't change the fact that you can get into it.

The eruptor uses 2.5W of power so once bought while your revenue may decline it is unlikely it will ever be unprofitable.  Difficulty will be constrained by electrical efficiency and that will ensure those eruptors will be able to trickle in some revenue for a long time.

Didn't say mining is a get rich quick sheme, I see it more like an investement.

But the guy who'll pay 50000$ for 1000gh/s for example will not be comparable to a guy who'll put 100$ for a lot less hashing power and wait a long time to even break even on the hardware. When bitcoin gets taken even more seriously then now and more and more people start to mine a lot of rich people will invest into mining and be able to buy the most gh/s.

The reality is most people mine for the money/bitcoins not to help keep the network secure, that's just a side thing. But I'm really just trying to say that ASIC is not a significant improvement for bitcoins in my opinion. People will have to pay more and more for them to be able to mine with a gain and the network won't be significantly more secure by that.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
July 02, 2013, 10:36:07 PM
#67
For now and for small gains. It's gonna be different in the future in my opinion.

What are the gains on a $100 GPU?  Mining was never intended to be a high profit, free moniez for everyone system.  The purpose of mining is to protect the network and miners are paid a fee for that service.  Mining is an almost perfect commodity and as such overtime the margins are going to be very low, especially as the risk premium declines.

Still the reality is you CAN get into ASIC mining. Maybe you don't like the return but that doesn't change the fact that you can get into it.

The eruptor uses 2.5W of power so once bought while your revenue may decline it is unlikely it will ever be unprofitable.  Difficulty will be constrained by electrical efficiency and that will ensure those eruptors will be able to trickle in some revenue for a long time.
newbie
Activity: 4
Merit: 0
July 02, 2013, 10:32:28 PM
#66
I don't think ASIC chips are a good thing really. If anyone would want to take out the bitcoin network (governments, rich people etc.) they'll just buy or manufacture their own ASIC chips and until they get 51% hashing power of the network. So the most good thing that people keep talking about in regards to ASIC mining and how it's gonna help "secure the network" seems flawed to me.

Only the rich will get richer with ASIC while the average person won't be able to get into mining if they'd want to.

You can get into ASIC mining with $90 to $100.

For now and for small gains. It's gonna be different in the future in my opinion.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
July 02, 2013, 10:21:05 PM
#65
I don't think ASIC chips are a good thing really. If anyone would want to take out the bitcoin network (governments, rich people etc.) they'll just buy or manufacture their own ASIC chips and until they get 51% hashing power of the network. So the most good thing that people keep talking about in regards to ASIC mining and how it's gonna help "secure the network" seems flawed to me.

Only the rich will get richer with ASIC while the average person won't be able to get into mining if they'd want to.

You can get into ASIC mining with $90 to $100.
newbie
Activity: 4
Merit: 0
July 02, 2013, 10:16:18 PM
#64
I don't think ASIC chips are a good thing really. If anyone would want to take out the bitcoin network (governments, rich people etc.) they'll just buy or manufacture their own ASIC chips and until they get 51% hashing power of the network. So the most good thing that people keep talking about in regards to ASIC mining and how it's gonna help "secure the network" seems flawed to me.

Only the rich will get richer with ASIC while the average person won't be able to get into mining if they'd want to.
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