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Topic: Bitcoin Jesus ministry not to preach from American soil - page 5. (Read 6676 times)

legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1014

Something is badly wrong with justice anyways, when selling fireworks is considered illegal even though they were properly paid for (and not stolen). A proper sales contract between two private individuals, how can that be illegal?!?!?!


Well that is the way it *should* be. Even the US dollar says "Legal tender for all debts, public and private" But it really doesn't work that way, sadly.

100% agreed. Now, if Ebay bans such sales on their website, that is perfectly within their right and the only sentence he therefore deserved, was losing his Ebay account.

Instead he got 10 months in jail for properly executing contracts with other individuals on a voluntary basis. This obviously was the reason he renounced his citizenship. I had no idea who Roger Ver is but like him now  Smiley
hero member
Activity: 510
Merit: 500

No. He was an honest trader and the government scum set him up. Read before you blab, that link was in the OP article.

http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/11/12/bitcoin-venture-capitalist-roger-vers-journey-to-anarchism/

 In the meeting, my attorney told the prosecutor that selling store bought firecrackers on Ebay isn’t a big deal and that we can pay a fine and do some community service to be done with everything. When the prosecutor agreed that that sounded reasonable one of the ATF agents pounded his hand on the table and shouted “…but you didn’t hear the things that he said!” This summed up very clearly that they were angry about the things that I had said, not the things that I had done.


Something is badly wrong with justice anyways, when selling fireworks is considered illegal even though they were properly paid for (and not stolen). A proper sales contract between two private individuals, how can that be illegal?!?!?!

When you are up for a crime it is normal to consider both what is said and what is done.  It is also normal to consider some types of transactions illegal for a variety of reasons.  In this case it was accidents caused by people improperly handling or using the explosives.  Back when people lived in caves these restrictions did not exist.
legendary
Activity: 1064
Merit: 1000

Something is badly wrong with justice anyways, when selling fireworks is considered illegal even though they were properly paid for (and not stolen). A proper sales contract between two private individuals, how can that be illegal?!?!?!


Well that is the way it *should* be. Even the US dollar says "Legal tender for all debts, public and private" But it really doesn't work that way, sadly.
hero member
Activity: 510
Merit: 500
the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

I think they are a comedy troupe now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg7YhXuyw5g

What exactly is wrong with the free state project? I'm actually curious, because I don't know you personally but someone I respect highly evidently trusts you so I'd like to hear it.

I had heard of them before and I thought it was good thing at first.  The first time I actually heard their show was the coverage of the first big Bitcoin Foundation conference.  I told my Dad about it and he was over when the conference was starting.  They started running commercials claiming all government workers were "murders."  Totally off-the-wall stuff.  Since then I have been watching the members of this organization talk about Bitcoin and there was quite a bit of exaggeration and misrepresentation.  It is not just one or two instances, it is a pattern.  What they are doing is using Bitcoin to promote their agenda and they attach the success of their agenda to the success of Bitcoin, hence the misinformation and exaggeration.

these exaggerations include claims that the Bitcoin economy is huge and increasing exponentially.  Another claim is that it is impossible to change the 21 million limit yet they claim it is easy to fix bugs and change the number of decimal digits.  Ver says the OpenBazaar is based on "blockchain technology."   Then there are the claims that Bitcoin will end war or somehow change the way the entire world works.  The vast number of potential Bitcoin users are never going to agree with this stuff. 

I agree that there is an erosion of liberties, government is too big, financially irresponsible, and all that but the Free State people are so far out they offer no benefit to Bitcoin.  it is true that some of those people blazed the trail for Bitcoin in its early days but now they are a detriment by using Bitcoin to promote an agenda.  You may notice that successful Bitcoin businesses are not promoting Bitcoin as a tool to end war, collapse governments, or replace the US dollar.

Thank you for your reply. War isn't going to end anytime soon, no matter what financial tools are at our disposal. I don't see the "replacement of the US dollar" thing. Bitcoin is designed to do just that. The dollar does it's job, and bitcoin does what it is meant to do. Or am I misinterpreting your words?

I think Bitcoin will one of many financial instruments and currencies.  I thinks banks will use it for money transfers, people will use it for remittance, unbanked will use it (it will not solve the problem of unbanked but it will be one more tool to help) and things like that.  However, there are several use cases where Bitcoin is not the ideal financial instrument and the whole world is not going to switch over to Bitcoin.  Decentralization is expensive and slow and many things are better done in a centralized manner and there is a real issue with transaction fees as the block rewards are reduced.  I do not believe the Erik Vorhees theory that the world's currencies are all going to collapse and the world is going to flock to Bitcoin like a "lifeboat."  If you listen to Gavin and Mike Hearn when they discuss these issues they generally put things in a proper perspective.  
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1014

No. He was an honest trader and the government scum set him up. Read before you blab, that link was in the OP article.

http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/11/12/bitcoin-venture-capitalist-roger-vers-journey-to-anarchism/

 In the meeting, my attorney told the prosecutor that selling store bought firecrackers on Ebay isn’t a big deal and that we can pay a fine and do some community service to be done with everything. When the prosecutor agreed that that sounded reasonable one of the ATF agents pounded his hand on the table and shouted “…but you didn’t hear the things that he said!” This summed up very clearly that they were angry about the things that I had said, not the things that I had done.


Something is badly wrong with justice anyways, when selling fireworks is considered illegal even though they were properly paid for (and not stolen). A proper sales contract between two private individuals, how can that be illegal?!?!?!
legendary
Activity: 1064
Merit: 1000
the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

I think they are a comedy troupe now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg7YhXuyw5g

What exactly is wrong with the free state project? I'm actually curious, because I don't know you personally but someone I respect highly evidently trusts you so I'd like to hear it.

I had heard of them before and I thought it was good thing at first.  The first time I actually heard their show was the coverage of the first big Bitcoin Foundation conference.  I told my Dad about it and he was over when the conference was starting.  They started running commercials claiming all government workers were "murders."  Totally off-the-wall stuff.  Since then I have been watching the members of this organization talk about Bitcoin and there was quite a bit of exaggeration and misrepresentation.  It is not just one or two instances, it is a pattern.  What they are doing is using Bitcoin to promote their agenda and they attach the success of their agenda to the success of Bitcoin, hence the misinformation and exaggeration.

these exaggerations include claims that the Bitcoin economy is huge and increasing exponentially.  Another claim is that it is impossible to change the 21 million limit yet they claim it is easy to fix bugs and change the number of decimal digits.  Ver says the OpenBazaar is based on "blockchain technology."   Then there are the claims that Bitcoin will end war or somehow change the way the entire world works.  The vast number of potential Bitcoin users are never going to agree with this stuff. 

I agree that there is an erosion of liberties, government is too big, financially irresponsible, and all that but the Free State people are so far out they offer no benefit to Bitcoin.  it is true that some of those people blazed the trail for Bitcoin in its early days but now they are a detriment by using Bitcoin to promote an agenda.  You may notice that successful Bitcoin businesses are not promoting Bitcoin as a tool to end war, collapse governments, or replace the US dollar.

Thank you for your reply. War isn't going to end anytime soon, no matter what financial tools are at our disposal. I don't see the "replacement of the US dollar" thing. Bitcoin is designed to do just that. The dollar does it's job, and bitcoin does what it is meant to do. Or am I misinterpreting your words?
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
Free State Project people are kind of nutters but so are libertarians. The good news is there are less than 20,000 of them.
hero member
Activity: 510
Merit: 500
the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

I think they are a comedy troupe now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg7YhXuyw5g

What exactly is wrong with the free state project? I'm actually curious, because I don't know you personally but someone I respect highly evidently trusts you so I'd like to hear it.

I had heard of them before and I thought it was good thing at first.  The first time I actually heard their show was the coverage of the first big Bitcoin Foundation conference.  I told my Dad about it and he was over when the conference was starting.  They started running commercials claiming all government workers were "murders."  Totally off-the-wall stuff.  Since then I have been watching the members of this organization talk about Bitcoin and there was quite a bit of exaggeration and misrepresentation.  It is not just one or two instances, it is a pattern.  What they are doing is using Bitcoin to promote their agenda and they attach the success of their agenda to the success of Bitcoin, hence the misinformation and exaggeration.

these exaggerations include claims that the Bitcoin economy is huge and increasing exponentially.  Another claim is that it is impossible to change the 21 million limit yet they claim it is easy to fix bugs and change the number of decimal digits.  Ver says the OpenBazaar is based on "blockchain technology."   Then there are the claims that Bitcoin will end war or somehow change the way the entire world works.  The vast number of potential Bitcoin users are never going to agree with this stuff. 

I agree that there is an erosion of liberties, government is too big, financially irresponsible, and all that but the Free State people are so far out they offer no benefit to Bitcoin.  it is true that some of those people blazed the trail for Bitcoin in its early days but now they are a detriment by using Bitcoin to promote an agenda.  You may notice that successful Bitcoin businesses are not promoting Bitcoin as a tool to end war, collapse governments, or replace the US dollar.
legendary
Activity: 1064
Merit: 1000
the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

I think they are a comedy troupe now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg7YhXuyw5g

What exactly is wrong with the free state project? I'm actually curious, because I don't know you personally but someone I respect highly evidently trusts you so I'd like to hear it.
hero member
Activity: 510
Merit: 500
the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

I think they are a comedy troupe now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg7YhXuyw5g
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
THere's no evidence that bitcoin has ANYTHING to do with it, in fact, why would it? The government has more important things to concern itself with.

The fact is, this guy renounced his citizenship, fine, and then he wants to get back into the country?? And he expects the US to say, "sure, come back in!"...this guy is a fool if he's surprised by this.

Here's an analogy...someone comes to your house and says "Fuck you, I hate this place, I don't ever want to be associated with it!" Would you want them back in your house again?

I agree with his t-shirt, but there's nothing we can do about that.

Now that's an interesting viewpoint. It's ok for the government to behave the same way a disappointed child would.

sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
Loose lips sink sigs!
THere's no evidence that bitcoin has ANYTHING to do with it, in fact, why would it? The government has more important things to concern itself with.

The fact is, this guy renounced his citizenship, fine, and then he wants to get back into the country?? And he expects the US to say, "sure, come back in!"...this guy is a fool if he's surprised by this.

Here's an analogy...someone comes to your house and says "Fuck you, I hate this place, I don't ever want to be associated with it!" Would you want them back in your house again?

I agree with his t-shirt, but there's nothing we can do about that.
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 500
Where am I?
I agree this country has some idiots in leadership roles, but he was denied just cause he renounced his citizenship.

He would of had a better chance on just sneaking in instead of apply for a visa.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
You could always jump off the ship or plane into the ocean and swim ashore, and pick things up from there.

 Cheesy

It's not even that difficult. Now he knows to go to TJ first and hire a coyote. He just needs to learn one phrase in Spanish: estoy aquí sólo para recoger lechuga
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
You could always jump off the ship or plane into the ocean and swim ashore, and pick things up from there.

 Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
Well, I guess that's the reason. What a frightened little bunny rabbit America has become. I wonder if he illegally entered the country and agreed to pick some lettuce and spinach if they would let him stay for the summer. lol

member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
Why would the government do this other than to mess with him? Is it because of his connection to Bitcoin or because he renounced his citizenship? If you renounce your citizenship you can't go to the U.S. anymore?

It's because he clearly and admittedly renounced his citizenship for the purpose of not paying U.S. taxes. That bolded part is important. We don't need any conspiracy theories here, it's been U.S. policy for many years that if you renounce your citizenship for the purpose of not paying U.S. taxes you are not to be admitted back into the country. Eduardo Saverin (co-founder of Facebook) is likely in the same boat, since he also clearly renounced his citizenship to avoid taxes.

Of course, it could also have something to do with the fact that Ver was convicted of selling explosives on eBay, that's something I'd think most governments (not just the U.S.) wouldn't take too lightly.. but no, let's forget about any plausible explanations based on long-standing U.S. laws and policies and just assume it's a conspiracy against Bitcoin.

Correct.

The expert says:

http://www.nestmann.com/the-real-reasons-americans-give-up-their-us-citizenship

Quote
In 2012, and again in 2013, Senators Charles Schumer (D-NY) and Bob Casey (D-PA) introduced legislation that would retroactively punish wealthy expatriates like Saverin. Under their most recent proposal, expatriates with a net worth exceeding $2 million, or with an average income tax liability exceeding $155,000 for the five years preceding expatriation, would be presumed to have given up US citizenship for tax avoidance purposes. If they couldn't prove otherwise to the IRS, they would be permanently barred from ever coming back to the US – even as visitors.

Such “covered” expatriates would also face a 30% percent tax on future gains from US investments, no matter where they live. In contrast, all other non-US citizens who invest in the US enjoy substantial tax advantages.

And get this… both the tax and re-entry provisions are retroactive for anyone who expatriated during the 10-year period prior to the time the law comes into effect.

I’m not aware of any effort by Schumer or Casey to introduce similar legislation in 2014. But, of course, we still have nine months to go.


http://www.nestmann.com/getting-out-is-hard-getting-back-in-is-harder

Quote
If you enter the USA with a foreign passport that shows that you were born in the USA, you’ll receive even greater scrutiny.

My friend and colleague P.T. Freeman, who gave up his US citizenship more than a decade ago, was intensively questioned on his most recent entry into the USA.

The first official he spoke to noticed that his foreign passport showed US heritage. The official—whom he actually knew from previous visits— informed P.T. that he needed to use his US passport to enter the USA. P.T. told the official that he had given up his US citizenship, along with the right to use a US passport, many years ago.

The official informed him that a directive sent out to border officials last month set out a new policy for anyone entering the USA with a passport showing a US birthplace. That policy requires that anyone entering the USA with this status automatically be diverted to secondary inspection.

As I’ve written previously, it’s becoming much more difficult for everyone—especially former US citizens—to obtain a visitor’s visa to the USA.


http://www.nestmann.com/former-u-s-citizens-face-discrimination-returning-usa

Quote
Non-resident aliens (NRAs) with previous U.S. nationality or permanent residence once were treated virtually the same as other NRAs for purposes of entry or re-entry to the United States.

This status began to change in 1996, when Congress enacted the Reed Amendment to the Immigration & Nationality Act. The amendment gives the U.S. Attorney General the discretion to deny re-entry into the United States to a former U.S. citizen who renounced U.S. citizenship in order to avoid U.S. taxation. Exclusion is limited to former U.S. citizens and doesn't include former Green Card holders. (The Attorney General’s authority transferred to the Secretary of Homeland Security under the Homeland Security Act of 2002.)

While the authority of the Reed Amendment has never officially been issued, some U.S. consular officials have denied visa applications from former U.S. citizens, apparently using the Reed amendment as an excuse. This is despite the fact that according to the Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual,

"The Department of Homeland Security has not published implementing regulations on INA 212(a)(10)(E) (8 U.S.C. 1182), so no procedures implementing this law are currently in effect."

Then, only a few weeks ago, Senators Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) and Bob Casey (D-Pa.) introduced legislation (The "Ex-PATRIOT Act") that would permanently bar "covered expatriates" from ever returning to the United States. What's more, the law would be retroactive to anyone expatriating up to ten years prior to its enactment. However, in common with the Reed Amendment, it would apply only to former U.S. citizens—not to former green card holders.

Fortunately, the Ex-PATRIOT Act hasn't been enacted. But even without it, I've recently learned of a few examples where former U.S. citizens have been denied a re-entry visa to the United States. Visa denial hasn't been based on the Reed Amendment or any other tax or wealth-related justification. Instead, it's been based on section 214(b) of the Immigration & Nationality Act. In visa denials under this provision, the applicant:

"…did not overcome the presumption of immigrant intent, required by law, by sufficiently demonstrating that you have strong ties to your home country that will compel you to leave the United States at the end of your temporary stay."

In one case, the applicant had very strong ties to his adopted country, and could prove it. However, he didn't bring sufficient evidence of these ties to his visa interview, and thus was denied re-entry. Returning a few days later with a residence permit, driver's license, employment contract, rental contract, etc., he succeeded in obtaining a visitor's visa.

Therefore, if you expatriate and want to return to the United States to visit, bring as much evidence as possible to prove you're completely bound to your new country of residence. Increasingly, other countries—especially in the European Union—are demanding similar proof of permanent ties to another country before granting visitor's visas.

Perhaps you dream of "living nowhere" as a "perpetual traveler" with no ties to any country. That strategy won't work if you need to apply for visitor's visas from most countries. It can work, at least to some extent, if you have a passport that provides visa-free entry to the countries to which you wish to travel. That way, you avoid needing to apply for a visitor's visa. For instance, if you want to travel visa-free to the United States, then you should get a passport from one of the countries on this list. Unfortunately, none of these passports are easy to acquire.

The bottom line is that if you expatriate from the United States,  be mentally prepared never to return. Current policy merely makes it difficult to qualify for a visitor's visa, but legislation now before Congress may place you in permanent exile.


http://www.nestmann.com/why-uncle-sam-wants-these-citizenship-programs-shut-down

Quote
In November 2014, Canada imposed visa requirements on citizens of St. Kitts & Nevis. It cited “identity management practices within its Citizenship by Investment program” as the reason for ending visa-free travel to Canada by St. Kitts & Nevis passport holders.

The announcement didn’t describe the “identity management practices” with which it was concerned, but it seems safe to assume that one practice that Canada deemed objectionable was that, since 2012, St. Kitts & Nevis has issued passports that don’t display the passport-holder’s place of birth. Nor do the passports show any legal name changes.

That seems a safe assumption, because only days after Canada imposed visa restrictions, the St. Kitts & Nevis government recalled all passports issued between January 2012 and July 2014. The passports will be reissued to add the place of birth of the passport holder and to list any name changes on the observation page. After January 31, 2015, the old passports will be invalid.


http://www.nestmann.com/heres-one-fight-uncle-sam-cant-win

Quote
On May 20, FinCEN issued an “Advisory” that warned banks worldwide to apply special scrutiny to individuals identifying themselves as citizens of St. Kitts & Nevis.

Apparently, FinCEN doesn’t believe that St. Kitts & Nevis is trying hard enough to exclude Iranians from its economic citizenship program. And there’s more than just a hint of hypocrisy in that position. At least one other entrant in the economic citizenship market – Antigua – has no outright prohibition against Iranian applicants.


http://www.nestmann.com/second-passports-does-uncle-sam-need-to-know

Quote
Having a second passport and citizenship is not a reason to panic when it comes time to renew your US passport. Nothing changes, really, except for the fact that you need to include the sworn affidavit with your US passport renewal application. You do not even need to come face to face with a State Department official unless you do not qualify to renew by mail.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
The other way hostile to current administration media interests could spin this story, if he was allowed in, would be "Self radicalised foreign citizen with explosives convictions allowed entry." Which is rather contrary to the script of the current security theatre production.

ROLF

Truth Be Told (film at 11:00)
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
Hodl!
The other way hostile to current administration media interests could spin this story, if he was allowed in, would be "Self radicalised foreign citizen with explosives convictions allowed entry." Which is rather contrary to the script of the current security theatre production.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
The law just looks like a spoiled bully that is making up stupid rules because they're pissed because one of their subjects stood up for himself and said, enough is enough.

If you recall that sort of behaviour helped spark the revolution that the USofA started from. Has it come full circle?

Well, the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

I remember seeing the Free State Project ads on CoinVisitor. Didn't know that was still in operation.

They're still around. https://freestateproject.org
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