Bitcoin traders, why don't you just trade forex? - page 25.

timmey

newbie

Activity: 28

Merit: 0

Quote from: AyeYo on July 09, 2011, 08:53:57 AM

It makes me wonder, why don't you guys just trade real forex? You can open micro accounts with as little as $25.
[...]
what are your reasons for trading these shady, unsafe bitcoin markets over regular FX?

Gambling. I personally don't trade bitcoins for a living(yet), i do it in my spare time. I actually started trading out of pure boredom while browsing the interweb and reading some article about bitcoins. Like when you go to a Casino... "I have a hundred bucks that i don't care about, let's gamble". It's a nice experience to feel a little like a broker at Wallstreet. Sure i could do the same with a micro account and real forex but that would make it somehow "official" and not just for fun anymore.

flix

legendary

Activity: 1227

Merit: 1000

Quote from: AyeYo on July 09, 2011, 08:53:57 AM

So, to all the bitcoin traders out there... what are your reasons for trading these shady, unsafe bitcoin markets over regular FX?

I want to trade FX with bitcoin.

The most annoying thing about most brokerage accts is the slow fund/withdraw process, together with the mass of financial regulations, AML, KYC, etc.

I want to be able to send BTC and withdraw them with a click. Like cash.

qikaifu

full member

Activity: 168

Merit: 100

God creats math and math creats bitcoin.

Please let me know if there is some forex that has a limited supply with a set up number and global acceptance.

AyeYo

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 103

Quote from: GamblingPurveyor on July 19, 2011, 03:42:15 AM

Quote from: AyeYo on July 15, 2011, 10:17:32 AM

I get that and I even agree. What I don't understand is how people trust these exchanges. I'd trade BTC too for the exact same reasons, but it's the safety of the exchanges and why people trust them that doesn't make sense to me.

You could ask the same questions of mainstream stock brokers, and the answer would be no better. The fact is that "real exchanges" as you call them are not in "full compliance" with the law as you have tried to claim. The entire U.S. financial industry is known to have committed some pretty serious crimes. Every single stock brokerage, and every single FOREX broker in the United States is either a criminal organization, or secretly insolvent, and the only thing keeping them out of jail is the fact that they count many powerful politicians in their ranks.

And you can provide proof of this, right? Every single one, huh? I can't wait to see the many citations you'll provide to back up that claim.

NetTecture

full member

Activity: 140

Merit: 100

I don't touch forex with a 10 foot pole - unregulated and the trade software even has "fuck the customer" modules.

Wink

If I want to trade, I use the CME GROUP and trade on CME, CBOT, NYMEX etc. Wink

Regulated, decent prices.

GamblingPurveyor

member

Activity: 280

Merit: 10

Quote from: AyeYo on July 15, 2011, 10:17:32 AM

I get that and I even agree. What I don't understand is how people trust these exchanges. I'd trade BTC too for the exact same reasons, but it's the safety of the exchanges and why people trust them that doesn't make sense to me.

You could ask the same questions of mainstream stock brokers, and the answer would be no better. The fact is that "real exchanges" as you call them are not in "full compliance" with the law as you have tried to claim. The entire U.S. financial industry is known to have committed some pretty serious crimes. Every single stock brokerage, and every single FOREX broker in the United States is either a criminal organization, or secretly insolvent, and the only thing keeping them out of jail is the fact that they count many powerful politicians in their ranks.

Fireball

hero member

Activity: 674

Merit: 500

Quote from: AyeYo on July 15, 2011, 10:15:59 AM

Cool. What's your point?

Trollism detected? You started this topic, you made some incorrect statements which I politely explained, you brought market making into account.

I just want every post in this forum to be a source of useful information, not just useless arguing or discussion.

AyeYo

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 103

Quote from: ascent on July 15, 2011, 10:45:53 AM

Quote from: AyeYo on July 15, 2011, 10:17:32 AM

I get that and I even agree. What I don't understand is how people trust these exchanges. I'd trade BTC too for the exact same reasons, but it's the safety of the exchanges and why people trust them that doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not seeing much potential to scale in the Bitcoin market. It's fine as a sandbox, but can you really ramp up the size of your trades? Not only is the liquidity not there, but what if you did make some real money? Do you really want to have hundreds of thousands of dollars sitting on their servers?

And even as a sandbox, is it really a good sandbox if it doesn't move like the real markets do?

My points exactly. Judging by the responses here, a lot of people think it's a good first step to learn trading more popular markets, but it's really not because it doesn't at all behave like normal markets.

ascent

newbie

Activity: 56

Merit: 0

Quote from: Jack of Diamonds on July 15, 2011, 12:09:19 PM

The office rents there are about $20k monthly so I wouldn't say it's a low budget operation.
It's in one of the finest areas of Tokyo.

Which only makes the points made herein stronger. Spend money on IT infrastructure - not marble receptionist desks and expansive views of the Tokyo skyline.

Jack of Diamonds

sr. member

Activity: 252

Merit: 251

Stop saying they aren't registered when Tibanne Ltd. runs Mt. Gox and pays taxes in Japan. They have also hired personnel so it's not just '2 guys running it in moms basement'.

You can even phone up the landlord of their office, Cerulean Tower, Shibuya, Tokyo and ask the receptionist if such a company operates there.

The office rents there are about $20k monthly so I wouldn't say it's a low budget operation.
It's in one of the finest areas of Tokyo.

ascent

newbie

Activity: 56

Merit: 0

Quote from: Fireball on July 15, 2011, 03:14:53 AM

Quote from: AyeYo on July 14, 2011, 05:09:05 PM

That's called market making. No mysteries there. I fail to see why it's a problem when you're dealing with a real business that's under laws and regulations and is TELLING YOU that they're a market maker.

According to [1], a market maker is a company, or an individual, that quotes both a buy and a sell price in a financial instrument or commodity held in inventory, hoping to make a profit on the bid-offer spread, or turn.

Market making is not related to simulating quotes to clients, pretending that client placed order when in reality it purely remains in the forex broker's "casino".

Market making mainly means providing liquidity to the market, not cheating a client.

1. Radcliffe, Robert C. (1997). Investment: Concepts, Analysis, Strategy. Addison-Wesley Educational Publishers, Inc.. p. 134.

Do your own research, both in terms of selecting a broker, and in choosing your trades. The money you make or lose will be reflective of the markets and how you choose to interact with them.

ascent

newbie

Activity: 56

Merit: 0

Quote from: AyeYo on July 15, 2011, 10:17:32 AM

I get that and I even agree. What I don't understand is how people trust these exchanges. I'd trade BTC too for the exact same reasons, but it's the safety of the exchanges and why people trust them that doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not seeing much potential to scale in the Bitcoin market. It's fine as a sandbox, but can you really ramp up the size of your trades? Not only is the liquidity not there, but what if you did make some real money? Do you really want to have hundreds of thousands of dollars sitting on their servers?

And even as a sandbox, is it really a good sandbox if it doesn't move like the real markets do?

AyeYo

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 103

Quote from: grod on July 14, 2011, 09:35:37 AM

Let's say I was just learning to trade currencies. Would I want to

a) learn in a market where most others have roughly the same level of experience?
b) learn in a market with vastly more experienced people?

Let's say I was a rookie. Would I want to

a) play somewhere where even my limited experience gives me a competitive advantage?
b) trade in a market where others are vastly more experienced?

Let's say I was an experienced trader. Would I want to:

a) fleece the inexperienced armed with knowledge of what I did wrong when starting out?
b) compete in the cuthroat zero-sum-game world I know the professional markets to be?

Let's say I was a professional. Would I want to:

a) trade in a market I could buy with my pocket lint, knowing full well my potential upside is a tiny fraction of my bonus check?
b) make my living the usual way

Understand these scenarios and you understand who is trading bitcoins and why comparing the bitcoin market to a real forex is like comparing apples and minivans.

I get that and I even agree. What I don't understand is how people trust these exchanges. I'd trade BTC too for the exact same reasons, but it's the safety of the exchanges and why people trust them that doesn't make sense to me.

AyeYo

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 103

Quote from: Fireball on July 15, 2011, 03:14:53 AM

Quote from: AyeYo on July 14, 2011, 05:09:05 PM

That's called market making. No mysteries there. I fail to see why it's a problem when you're dealing with a real business that's under laws and regulations and is TELLING YOU that they're a market maker.

According to [1], a market maker is a company, or an individual, that quotes both a buy and a sell price in a financial instrument or commodity held in inventory, hoping to make a profit on the bid-offer spread, or turn.

Market making is not related to simulating quotes to clients, pretending that client placed order when in reality it purely remains in the forex broker's "casino".

Market making mainly means providing liquidity to the market, not cheating a client.

1. Radcliffe, Robert C. (1997). Investment: Concepts, Analysis, Strategy. Addison-Wesley Educational Publishers, Inc.. p. 134.

Cool. What's your point?

Fireball

hero member

Activity: 674

Merit: 500

Quote from: AyeYo on July 14, 2011, 05:09:05 PM

That's called market making. No mysteries there. I fail to see why it's a problem when you're dealing with a real business that's under laws and regulations and is TELLING YOU that they're a market maker.

According to [1], a market maker is a company, or an individual, that quotes both a buy and a sell price in a financial instrument or commodity held in inventory, hoping to make a profit on the bid-offer spread, or turn.

Market making is not related to simulating quotes to clients, pretending that client placed order when in reality it purely remains in the forex broker's "casino".

Market making mainly means providing liquidity to the market, not cheating a client.

1. Radcliffe, Robert C. (1997). Investment: Concepts, Analysis, Strategy. Addison-Wesley Educational Publishers, Inc.. p. 134.

AyeYo

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 103

Quote from: piramida on July 14, 2011, 05:26:45 AM

AyeYo seems that you is the one who does not know how Forex operates

For small traders, under a million usd, you most probably don't even do any real deals. It's all in your broker's cumulative position, if he even has one. Or it can be a pure simulation, because more often than not people lose everything and you can just run it casino-style. Just hedge that big bets to the real market and you will be safe.

That's called market making. No mysteries there. I fail to see why it's a problem when you're dealing with a real business that's under laws and regulations and is TELLING YOU that they're a market maker. That's totally different than hack site MtGox that doesn't promote itself as a market maker, but yet could very well be on the other side of your trades.

grod

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 100

Let's say I was just learning to trade currencies. Would I want to

a) learn in a market where most others have roughly the same level of experience?
b) learn in a market with vastly more experienced people?

Let's say I was a rookie. Would I want to

a) play somewhere where even my limited experience gives me a competitive advantage?
b) trade in a market where others are vastly more experienced?

Let's say I was an experienced trader. Would I want to:

a) fleece the inexperienced armed with knowledge of what I did wrong when starting out?
b) compete in the cuthroat zero-sum-game world I know the professional markets to be?

Let's say I was a professional. Would I want to:

a) trade in a market I could buy with my pocket lint, knowing full well my potential upside is a tiny fraction of my bonus check?
b) make my living the usual way

Understand these scenarios and you understand who is trading bitcoins and why comparing the bitcoin market to a real forex is like comparing apples and minivans.

piramida

legendary

Activity: 1176

Merit: 1010

Borsche

AyeYo seems that you is the one who does not know how Forex operates

For small traders, under a million usd, you most probably don't even do any real deals. It's all in your broker's cumulative position, if he even has one. Or it can be a pure simulation, because more often than not people lose everything and you can just run it casino-style. Just hedge that big bets to the real market and you will be safe.

Fireball

hero member

Activity: 674

Merit: 500

Quote from: AyeYo on July 11, 2011, 10:11:58 AM

Clearly demonstrating that you have no idea what you're talking about. Roll Eyes

Currencies are paired because you have to sell something to buy something and vise versa.

You don't buy currency pairs. You buy the base of the pair by selling the paired curency. i.e. If you "buy" USD/JPY, you're selling Yen to buy USD. If you "buy" AUD/USD, you're selling USD to buy Aussie Dollars. So in your case, the answer to the OP is, "because I have no idea what I'm doing."

AyeYo - no reason to jump into conclusions so fast

I'm explaining a very simple case: for that 25 USD account, if you "buy" JPY/USD, you won't get Japanese Yen into your forex account in exchange for those 25 USD! You will only get JPY/USD pair, which you later have to sell anyway in order to get back your USD (higher or lower).

P.S. Don't be so personal, your attitude sucks. I have many years of trading experience in the stock and futures market, not to tell about base economic education. If I'm wrong somewhere - just tell what's wrong, this will be useful for everyone here. Personal attacks are nothing useful.

Explodicle

hero member

Activity: 950

Merit: 1001

Quote from: chickenado on July 11, 2011, 03:45:58 AM

It's quite simple really:

I understand bitcoin, and I don't understand regular forex.

I have been following bitcoin for almost a year. I know the technology, the community, and the bitcoin economy inside out. The bitcoin exchanges may be flawed, they may be more risky than other exchanges, but at least those flaws and risks are 100% known to me.

Regular forex lacks transparency. The murky, insider-dominated fundamentals that affect regular forex seem too inaccessible to an amateur trader.

This. I'm an engineer; if it wasn't for Bitcoin I wouldn't trade currency at all. Doing the required homework for another currency would be less fun and not worth my time.

Topic: Bitcoin traders, why don't you just trade forex? - page 25. (Read 25231 times)