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Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 13. (Read 378926 times)

hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
BU can even be configured to mimic the behavior of BIP100, BIP101, BIP102, BIP103 or BIP202. Or it can be setup to behave exactly the same as a Core node as well, the choice is yours, in different words it is up to the free market. Considering all of the possible options of who decides I would argue that this is the best solution.
It's not. It's up to the miners.

Stop promoting this misleading idea.
Consensus is an emergent property which flows from the will of the economic majority. Proof of work is the best way to measure this consensus. The pools act as proxy for the miners, pools behave in a similar way to representatives within a representative democracy. Then in turn the miners act as a proxy for the economic majority. Since the miners are incentivized to follow the economic majority. In effect the economic majority rules Bitcoin, in other words the market rules Bitcoin. Bitcoin relies on the economic self-interest of the masses to govern consensus.
Nodes decide the code they run and if there was consensus amongst these peers that the block size should be increased then it would.
For now, the consensus emerging from the economic majority is that the 1MB limit won't move.
You are actually just confirming what I have been saying, I suppose we can agree on this point now then. The economic majority does not want to increase the blocksize limit now. I suspect that they will want to increase it soon however, Bitcoin Unlimited is on the rise. Smiley
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
I also do not see a better alternative then that since otherwise we would still be dependent on alternative implementations and their development teams in order to give us a range of choice. In that case however the power would still lie with the economic majority and the miners so it would not actually in effect be any different in that regard, it just turns what was a representative democracy into a more direct form of democracy in regards to the blocksize. BU is not even about increasing the blocksize, it is about giving everyone the freedom of choice.
This is your subjective opinion and is not based on facts. I'm assuming that you do not have extensive technical expertise (no, this is not ad hominem; more like a question).
I do not have a deep technical background, I can admit that. I have a background in the humanities instead. I have spent most of my time over the last year learning about Bitcoin, I understand the rules of the protocol, even though I might not fully understand how they have been implemented in terms of the code. I think that this does qualify me to discuss the game theory, economics and politics of Bitcoin.

My point being is that I do not need to have a technical background to answer questions like "who decides" or what the economic policy and governance structure of Bitcoin should be. I could even argue that having a background in the humanities makes me better equipped to answer some of these question which relate more to the macro scale game theory, economics and politics. If you look closer at what I am saying here you can see for yourself what disciplines of thought are best suited for these questions.

You are absolutely correct that this is a subjective opinion, all of political thought is subjective. If we where arguing socialism vs capitalism, neither one of us can claim objective fact, such theories are completely objective. I think you should try and look at this problem less from the perspective of an engineer and more from the perspective of a philosopher.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Irrelevant given that we have SW coming.

Did you gather any opinions from miners asking them how they feel about creeping towards 1.75 MB equivalent sometime in 2017 with a soft fork that leaves all non-latest-Core-software nodes not validating transactions?

The 75% increase is immediate once the code is implemented.

Third-party software a free to enjoy additional headroom by adapting their code.

April 2016 you said somewhere else?

Also, you will be functionally knocking off quite a few nodes from actually being nodes. Only 2000 of the 5500 nodes are running the latest Core release.

That's what's in the Core roadmap.

BTW I have no idea what you're talking about in the second line. Do you understand how softforks work?

Oh, they'll still be there, but they won't be full validating nodes anymore. Clearer?

They will be able to fully validate every transaction they're involved in.

It's great to have a certain number of nodes on the network but the most important one is the one you run.

As far as peers on the network are concerned their security model is in no way diminished so nice attempt at FUD but what you're describing applies to any other softfork.

sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
Irrelevant given that we have SW coming.

Did you gather any opinions from miners asking them how they feel about creeping towards 1.75 MB equivalent sometime in 2017 with a soft fork that leaves all non-latest-Core-software nodes not validating transactions?

The 75% increase is immediate once the code is implemented.

Third-party software a free to enjoy additional headroom by adapting their code.

April 2016 you said somewhere else?

Also, you will be functionally knocking off quite a few nodes from actually being nodes. Only 2000 of the 5500 nodes are running the latest Core release.

That's what's in the Core roadmap.

BTW I have no idea what you're talking about in the second line. Do you understand how softforks work?

Oh, they'll still be there, but they won't be full validating nodes anymore. Clearer?
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 503
AT least they gave a shot to some new concepts.  I think that stays with the spirit of the game.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Irrelevant given that we have SW coming.

Did you gather any opinions from miners asking them how they feel about creeping towards 1.75 MB equivalent sometime in 2017 with a soft fork that leaves all non-latest-Core-software nodes not validating transactions?

The 75% increase is immediate once the code is implemented.

Third-party software a free to enjoy additional headroom by adapting their code.

April 2016 you said somewhere else?

Also, you will be functionally knocking off quite a few nodes from actually being nodes. Only 2000 of the 5500 nodes are running the latest Core release.

That's what's in the Core roadmap.

BTW I have no idea what you're talking about in the second line. Do you understand how softforks work?
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
Irrelevant given that we have SW coming.

Did you gather any opinions from miners asking them how they feel about creeping towards 1.75 MB equivalent sometime in 2017 with a soft fork that leaves all non-latest-Core-software nodes not validating transactions?

The 75% increase is immediate once the code is implemented.

Third-party software a free to enjoy additional headroom by adapting their code.

April 2016 you said somewhere else?

Also, you will be functionally knocking off quite a few nodes from actually being nodes. Only 2000 of the 5500 nodes are running the latest Core release.
sr. member
Activity: 423
Merit: 250
So in other words miners make the ultimate decision? If this is the case, then Bitcoin Unlimited is even worse than I initially thought. Otherwise, elaborate what you mean exactly (since everyone can vote via software and miners create blocks).
I do not think that the miners having a lot of power in this decision making process is a bad thing, after all they are the only group that have a direct and lasting incentive mechanism acting upon them to do what is best for Bitcoin. Furthermore this would not just be up to the miners, they would still need to move with the economic majority, this is where the negotiation would take place.
So in other words, BU it is quite similar to BIP100 with the exception that with a combination of rogue nodes and miners the block size could be inflated so much that it would destroy Bitcoin? Don't deny this possibility with weird and not completely relevant to my statements.

As I understand BU, unless economical majority finds certain block size acceptable, it cannot succeed. If there are just 75% miners creating very big blocks, it doesnt really matter if economical majority (miners+exchanges+services+people) doesnt accept these big blocks. I know this looks like potentionally fuzy enviroment with a lot of uncertainity, but it could be said giving miners ability to choose what transactions add to blocks might mean they destroy Bitcoin by just creating empty blocks - and the orphan rate risk with today low fees would suggest such rogue behaviour! So dont expect there is interest for the worst to happen all the time.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
So in other words miners make the ultimate decision? If this is the case, then Bitcoin Unlimited is even worse than I initially thought. Otherwise, elaborate what you mean exactly (since everyone can vote via software and miners create blocks).
I do not think that the miners having a lot of power in this decision making process is a bad thing, after all they are the only group that have a direct and lasting incentive mechanism acting upon them to do what is best for Bitcoin. Furthermore this would not just be up to the miners, they would still need to move with the economic majority, this is where the negotiation would take place.
So in other words, BU it is quite similar to BIP100 with the exception that with a combination of rogue nodes and miners the block size could be inflated so much that it would destroy Bitcoin? Don't deny this possibility with weird and not completely relevant to my statements.

I also do not see a better alternative then that since otherwise we would still be dependent on alternative implementations and their development teams in order to give us a range of choice. In that case however the power would still lie with the economic majority and the miners so it would not actually in effect be any different in that regard, it just turns what was a representative democracy into a more direct form of democracy in regards to the blocksize. BU is not even about increasing the blocksize, it is about giving everyone the freedom of choice.
This is your subjective opinion and is not based on facts. I'm assuming that you do not have extensive technical expertise (no, this is not ad hominem; more like a question).

After all the miners and the economic majority could decrease the blocksize under BU if they deem this to be necessary, BU just takes this power away from the development teams and returns it to where it belongs.
Return it? You are implying that it was like this before and that it was changed through time.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Irrelevant given that we have SW coming.

Did you gather any opinions from miners asking them how they feel about creeping towards 1.75 MB equivalent sometime in 2017 with a soft fork that leaves all non-latest-Core-software nodes not validating transactions?

The 75% increase is immediate once the code is implemented.

Third-party software a free to enjoy additional headroom by adapting their code.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista

Irrelevant given that we have SW coming.

Dont be an idiot. Of course we dont. As you are fond of saying - its vaporware.....

it's actually all in code, waiting to get on testnet by end of the month and to be merged soon enough  Smiley

So your new altcoin is ready to go then?  Ha! Ha!   Grin Grin
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Irrelevant given that we have SW coming.

Dont be an idiot. Of course we dont. As you are fond of saying - its vaporware.....

it's actually all in code, waiting to get on testnet by end of the month and to be merged soon enough  Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
Irrelevant given that we have SW coming.

Did you gather any opinions from miners asking them how they feel about creeping towards 1.75 MB equivalent sometime in 2017 with a soft fork that leaves all non-latest-Core-software nodes not validating transactions?
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista

Irrelevant given that we have SW coming.

Dont be an idiot. Of course we dont. As you are fond of saying - its vaporware.....
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
-snip-
For now, the consensus emerging from the economic majority is that the 1MB limit won't move.

You're free to discuss pipedreams scenarios but they're just that, delusions, and nothing that reflects current reality.

You have to admit that Core has a certain sort of inertia. There's a big chunk of operators still plugging along on previous versions of Core. I also haven't seen an alternative that has the level of ongoing support that I'm comfortable with... so far. I really had high hopes for some kind of good will compromise between the opposing forces (ala garzik), bringing us back together with a common purpose... but it appears that is not going to be the case.



Irrelevant given that we have SW coming.
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
-snip-
For now, the consensus emerging from the economic majority is that the 1MB limit won't move.

You're free to discuss pipedreams scenarios but they're just that, delusions, and nothing that reflects current reality.

You have to admit that Core has a certain sort of inertia. There's a big chunk of operators still plugging along on previous versions of Core. I also haven't seen an alternative that has the level of ongoing support that I'm comfortable with... so far. I really had high hopes for some kind of good will compromise between the opposing forces (ala garzik), bringing us back together with a common purpose... but it appears that is not going to be the case.

legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1164
According to bitco.in no threshold for adoption by miners exists, apparently both users and miners can vote for adoption of the BU client and adoption is market based

hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista

haha coindesk.. lmao you fuck-mainstream-wit wannabe.


Romanian gypsy turds have returned from their circle jerk here

You derps sure gotta derp - you ain't wrong.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
BU can even be configured to mimic the behavior of BIP100, BIP101, BIP102, BIP103 or BIP202. Or it can be setup to behave exactly the same as a Core node as well, the choice is yours, in different words it is up to the free market. Considering all of the possible options of who decides I would argue that this is the best solution.

It's not. It's up to the miners.

Stop promoting this misleading idea.
Consensus is an emergent property which flows from the will of the economic majority. Proof of work is the best way to measure this consensus. The pools act as proxy for the miners, pools behave in a similar way to representatives within a representative democracy. Then in turn the miners act as a proxy for the economic majority. Since the miners are incentivized to follow the economic majority. In effect the economic majority rules Bitcoin, in other words the market rules Bitcoin. Bitcoin relies on the economic self-interest of the masses to govern consensus.

Stop repeating your dull one-liners it really makes you sound like a robot. (a not very smart one)

Nodes decide the code they run and if there was consensus amongst these peers that the block size should be increased then it would.

For now, the consensus emerging from the economic majority is that the 1MB limit won't move.

You're free to discuss pipedreams scenarios but they're just that, delusions, and nothing that reflects current reality.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
We've recently been able to show that weak blocks will not affect the existence of a fee market.  This is describe in detail in my recent "subchains" manuscript (Sections 4 and 5).
That is indeed an interesting paper and looks correct at the first glance.


Thanks!  I was quite excited by the results.

I must note that IBLT looks quite different, so it likely requires another paper Grin

Haha yes it will require another paper.  I haven't figured out how to formalize the scenario with IBLTs yet.  I suspect they will reduce the slope on the "mempool supply curve," but I have a lot more work to do. 
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