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Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 17. (Read 378930 times)

hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
So let's take another example: the gene pool of any given species. It's about resilience too.
Not useful enough genes exit the gene pool regularly, does that mean that the gene pool of any given species end up gravitating toward a single gene?

If low bandwitch nodes exit the nood pole that only means we will have a fitter node pool. It doesn't imply anything about the node count.


The issue is with the pace at which an uncontained block size would allow for large entities to capture the network.

Your analogies are all pretty good but they're beside the point.

Following your argument most of the nodes composing the network as we speak would vanish and would quickly turned into a specialized market likely to consolidate into few large entities.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


See comment from bitcoin.org owner above.

Bitcoin.org is not a public good and is expressing is freedom of speech.

You bedwetters need to cry about something else.
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
legendary
Activity: 861
Merit: 1010
Miners incentives in mining blocks are NOT aligned with node users and leaving them the decision as to what size the block should be inevitably leads to an ostracization of low bandwidth nodes. The centralizing effect is undeniable.
I am afraid you are mistaken.

Low bandwitch nodes will exit the market the same way as unproductive producers exit any given market under free competition. It's a mechanism as old as markets. Do you see a centralization of production in market economy?

The fundamental mistake underlying your assertion is to assume that because there is a selection process it's somehow undermine competion (needless to say that competition is the essential decentralization force).

Both (selection process and competition) can exist at the same time.

The peer-to-peer network is not a production market.


That was just an example which illustrates that in a real world environnement competition and selection are not antithecial.

Low bandwitch nodes exiting the node pool doesn't imply nodes centralization. You need to get back with a better argument or accept that your conclusion is flawed.

Yes it does because Bitcoin is not about efficiency but resilience. It ought to remain a low-latency network or else it inevitably leads to destruction of fundamental properties.

https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3ycizh/decentralizing_development_can_we_make_bitcoins/cycex9t?context=1
So let's take another example: the gene pool of any given species. It's about resilience too.
Not useful enough genes exit the gene pool regularly, does that mean that the gene pool of any given species end up gravitating toward a single gene?

If low bandwitch nodes exit the nood pole that only means we will have a fitter node pool. It doesn't imply anything about the node count.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Miners incentives in mining blocks are NOT aligned with node users and leaving them the decision as to what size the block should be inevitably leads to an ostracization of low bandwidth nodes. The centralizing effect is undeniable.
I am afraid you are mistaken.

Low bandwitch nodes will exit the market the same way as unproductive producers exit any given market under free competition. It's a mechanism as old as markets. Do you see a centralization of production in market economy?

The fundamental mistake underlying your assertion is to assume that because there is a selection process it's somehow undermine competion (needless to say that competition is the essential decentralization force).

Both (selection process and competition) can exist at the same time.

The peer-to-peer network is not a production market.


That was just an example which illustrates that in a real world environnement competition and selection are not antithecial.

Low bandwitch nodes exiting the node pool doesn't imply nodes centralization. You need to get back with a better argument or accept that your conclusion is flawed.

Yes it does because Bitcoin is not about efficiency but resilience. It ought to remain a low-latency network or else it inevitably leads to destruction of fundamental properties.

https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3ycizh/decentralizing_development_can_we_make_bitcoins/cycex9t?context=1
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
...
considering bitcoin's network effect and decentralization, it is simply too late to highjack it.

Indeed, the protocol being subject to design change would go against the very concept of a decentralized technology and would irrevocably introduce a point of failure precedent.

This is not FED nor ECB meme, to hell with "adjustments" and "quantitative easing".

You two seem to have it all figured out.

A passion for decentralization even led both of you to join the forum around the same time.  Smiley

3 might be a coincidence, but I think we have a trend here.


Hearn
Cypherdoc and his pussy posse
Anarchystar & The Bitcoin Phoundation
DeathAndTaxes
Roger Ver
JStolfi
Lambie

I know I'm missing a whole lot here.  Huh

Ah, poor forker brg444. When you run out of ideas, just play the ad hominem card...

I might have to agree with you here. Referring to anyone as "JStolfi" -- even JStolfi himself -- just seems like too dirty of an insult.
 

legendary
Activity: 861
Merit: 1010
Miners incentives in mining blocks are NOT aligned with node users and leaving them the decision as to what size the block should be inevitably leads to an ostracization of low bandwidth nodes. The centralizing effect is undeniable.
I am afraid you are mistaken.

Low bandwitch nodes will exit the market the same way as unproductive producers exit any given market under free competition. It's a mechanism as old as markets. Do you see a centralization of production in market economy?

The fundamental mistake underlying your assertion is to assume that because there is a selection process it's somehow undermine competion (needless to say that competition is the essential decentralization force).

Both (selection process and competition) can exist at the same time.

The peer-to-peer network is not a production market.


That was just an example which illustrates that in a real world environnement competition and selection are not antithecial.

Low bandwitch nodes exiting the node pool doesn't imply nodes centralization. You need to get back with a better argument or accept that your conclusion is flawed.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


It's #REKTING SEASON  Cool
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Miners incentives in mining blocks are NOT aligned with node users and leaving them the decision as to what size the block should be inevitably leads to an ostracization of low bandwidth nodes. The centralizing effect is undeniable.
I am afraid you are mistaken.

Low bandwitch nodes will exit the market the same way as unproductive producers exit any given market under free competition. It's a mechanism as old as markets. Do you see a centralization of production in market economy?

The fundamental mistake underlying your assertion is to assume that because there is a selection process it's somehow undermine competion (needless to say that competition is the essential decentralization force).

Both (selection process and competition) can exist at the same time.

The peer-to-peer network is not a production market.

legendary
Activity: 861
Merit: 1010
Miners incentives in mining blocks are NOT aligned with node users and leaving them the decision as to what size the block should be inevitably leads to an ostracization of low bandwidth nodes. The centralizing effect is undeniable.
I am afraid you are mistaken.

Low bandwitch nodes will exit the market the same way as unproductive producers exit any given market under free competition. It's a mechanism as old as markets. Do you see a centralization of production in market economy?

The fundamental mistake underlying your assertion is to assume that because there is a selection process it's somehow undermine competion (needless to say that competition is the essential decentralization force).

Both (selection process and competition) can exist at the same time.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
That you think that the miners incentives do not align with the users implies to me that you do not understand something very fundamental about Bitcoin. The miners are incentivized to do what is best for the network as a whole, if it was not for this fact, Bitcoin would not work. It is this underlying game theory, economics and psychology that allows the Bitcoin network to continue to operate and function the way that it does today.

Miners can continue doing their thing with 50 nodes on the network.

They couldn't careless if nodes start dropping off. Hell if they wanted to you couldn't even know nodes are dropping off the network.

That's why you'll never get it.

You're too naive.
full member
Activity: 136
Merit: 100
Get your filthy fiat off me you damn dirty state.

Hearn
Cypherdoc and his pussy posse
Anarchystar & The Bitcoin Phoundation
DeathAndTaxes
Roger Ver
JStolfi
Lambie

I know I'm missing a whole lot here.  Huh

Ah, poor forker brg444. When you run out of ideas, just play the ad hominem card...

I might have to agree with you here. Referring to anyone as "JStolfi" -- even JStolfi himself -- just seems like too dirty of an insult.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
That you think that the miners incentives do not align with the users implies to me that you do not understand something very fundamental about Bitcoin. The miners are incentivized to do what is best for the network as a whole, if it was not for this fact, Bitcoin would not work. It is this underlying game theory, economics and psychology that allows the Bitcoin network to continue to operate and function the way that it does today.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
In regards to Core attempting to censor Coinbase, you can follow the discussion here and decide for yourself what side you want to be on:
So according to you Bitcoin.org = Bitcoin Core? Makes sense.

I do not see a counter argument here, I get the feeling that you are not interested in engaging in constructive discussion. I have already explained how Bitcoin unlimited works, it is actually relatively simple. The feature set has already been decided upon, in the future more features will most likely be added. We even have a formal decision making process in place which I would argue is actually superior to Core.

http://www.bitcoinunlimited.info/articlesOfFederation

There is nothing to counter, you are telling me that the rules are yet going to be decided and then you tell me that it is already decided? Make up your mind. I'm asking a simple question, exactly what mechanism decides the block size and how.
It seems like you do not get it, everyone essentially can decide the blocksize for themselves under Bitcoin Unlimited, it takes this power away from centralized development teams. In effect this would have to be a negotiation between the miners and the economic majority. If more people started running BU nodes then the miners could simply start mining bigger blocks as they see fit and appropriate. As opposed to the type of central economic planning that placing this power with a development team would necessitate, having multiple implementations of course expands this choice, however BU is even better since the blocksize limit would become a product of the emergent consensus of the Bitcoin network as a whole. Ultimately this would reflect the true supply and demand of block space as opposed to the arbitrary limits set by Core.

If the current consortium of Bitcoin nodes and those who compose the Bitcoin peer-to-peer network decide the blocksize needs an increase  it has ALWAYS been possible for them to locally adjust and compile their node to accept blocks of whatever size.

It's a sign to how low and infantile the conversation has devolved that you continue to entertain the notion that the open-source development of Bitcoin is centrally developed and forced on Bitcoin users.

Miners incentives in mining blocks are NOT aligned with node users and leaving them the decision as to what size the block should be inevitably leads to an ostracization of low bandwidth nodes. The centralizing effect is undeniable.

This outright LIE that BU offers a market-driven solution is so asinine and disingenuous the notion is a disgrace to the credibility of anyone who dares participating in this manipulation.

It leaves literally everything up to the miners.

legendary
Activity: 1064
Merit: 1000
Breaking News from https://bitcoin.org/en/choose-your-wallet

Coinbase got Officially #REKT today.

You blockstreamers are truly beneath contempt at this point.  I urge anyone to have a look at this discussion if you are in any doubt that bitcoin is being taken over by private interests.

I also encourage people to read the discussion. It wasn't one sided (e.g., you can see luke-jr NACKed wait, what?). The funniest part was some XTer came in under the handle gladoscc pretending to support blockstream "signing off" on blocks.

If any of you XT dead enders are or know gladoscc, let him know that was some Grade A trolling.


gladoscc used to be TradeFortress iirc.

Well known scammer yes.

It's clear as day who you want to side with in this story.

The rap sheet of most current XTards is long and tainted with numerous stories of scams and sociopathic conduct.

Hearn
Cypherdoc and his pussy posse
Anarchystar & The Bitcoin Phoundation
DeathAndTaxes
Roger Ver
JStolfi
Lambie

I know I'm missing a whole lot here.  Huh

+ Just about anyone that comes here from that echo-chamber called reddit. You know, the ones crying censorship because they are too stupid to make a new thread.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista

Hearn
Cypherdoc and his pussy posse
Anarchystar & The Bitcoin Phoundation
DeathAndTaxes
Roger Ver
JStolfi
Lambie

I know I'm missing a whole lot here.  Huh

Ah, poor forker brg444. When you run out of ideas, just play the ad hominem card...

hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Breaking News from https://bitcoin.org/en/choose-your-wallet

Coinbase got Officially #REKT today.

You blockstreamers are truly beneath contempt at this point.  I urge anyone to have a look at this discussion if you are in any doubt that bitcoin is being taken over by private interests.

I also encourage people to read the discussion. It wasn't one sided (e.g., you can see luke-jr NACKed wait, what?). The funniest part was some XTer came in under the handle gladoscc pretending to support blockstream "signing off" on blocks.

If any of you XT dead enders are or know gladoscc, let him know that was some Grade A trolling.


gladoscc used to be TradeFortress iirc.

Well known scammer yes.

It's clear as day who you want to side with in this story.

The rap sheet of most current XTards is long and tainted with numerous stories of scams and sociopathic conduct.

Hearn
Cypherdoc and his pussy posse
Anarchystar & The Bitcoin Phoundation
DeathAndTaxes
Roger Ver
JStolfi
Lambie

I know I'm missing a whole lot here.  Huh
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
In regards to Core attempting to censor Coinbase, you can follow the discussion here and decide for yourself what side you want to be on:
So according to you Bitcoin.org = Bitcoin Core? Makes sense.

I do not see a counter argument here, I get the feeling that you are not interested in engaging in constructive discussion. I have already explained how Bitcoin unlimited works, it is actually relatively simple. The feature set has already been decided upon, in the future more features will most likely be added. We even have a formal decision making process in place which I would argue is actually superior to Core.

http://www.bitcoinunlimited.info/articlesOfFederation

There is nothing to counter, you are telling me that the rules are yet going to be decided and then you tell me that it is already decided? Make up your mind. I'm asking a simple question, exactly what mechanism decides the block size and how.
It seems like you do not get it, everyone essentially can decide the blocksize for themselves under Bitcoin Unlimited, it takes this power away from centralized development teams. In effect this would have to be a negotiation between the miners and the economic majority. If more people started running BU nodes then the miners could simply start mining bigger blocks as they see fit and appropriate. As opposed to the type of central economic planning that placing this power with a development team would necessitate, having multiple implementations of course expands this choice, however BU is even better since the blocksize limit would become a product of the emergent consensus of the Bitcoin network as a whole. Ultimately this would reflect the true supply and demand of block space as opposed to the arbitrary limits set by Core.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
About "game-theoretical blocksize limit" I only need to quote Peter R:
And the fee market regulated by orphan rate is worth debating.
And it has been debated, and the theory promoted by Peter R didn't hold well. Spherical cows stuff. I didn't check if he revised his paper since then, though.

I've shown that the fee market exists if:

1. Bitcoin's inflation rate is nonzero

2. More than one miner or mining pool exists

3. Large blocks take longer to propagate than smaller blocks.  

...

These three assumptions did not change since the last time I read his paper. The third one is, in my opinion, the most controversial, and I'm pretty sure it will be put to rest soon.

By propagate, I mean the time to communicate and verify the block information across the network.  With G. Andrew Stone's latest paper, we now have three papers indicating that larger blocks take longer to spread across the network than small blocks.

http://www.bitcoinunlimited.info/downloads/btc_1txn.pdf

Andrew's paper is novel because it is the first to perform the analysis based on propagation to (and verification by) hash rate rather than by nodes.  Here is one of his charts indicating a propagation impedance of about 17 sec / MB.  Which, incidentally is the same measurement that Tradeblock obtained using a different methodology.




@RoadTrain: do you believe that the time required for blocks to propagate across (and be verified by) the network does NOT depend on block size?
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