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Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 166. (Read 378996 times)

legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?
There is no reason why businesses shouldn't benefit from larger block sizes, unless of course people are conscious enough not to use those businesses that are trying to put them out of the game. In the case above, they likely over-projected in their business plans somewhere. Smiley

Huh?

If no-one is using Bitcoin to pay for things then how on earth are these business benefiting from larger block sizes?


"MASS ADOPTION" fantasies.

A lot of people here want mass adoption because they are selfish and they want to make some quick money, they don't really care about Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is useless if nobody can use it.

That'd be true if nobody could use it. Yet everyone can  Smiley

On the other hand it is not useless because it cannot settle your frappucino transaction on its blockchain, that's just pure ignorance but of course we are well used to that coming from you.

Again, if its not bitcoin it will be something else. That something else will a success while bitcoin will go down the path of irrelevence.

Bitcoin is the biggest network of its kind for now that allows you to have full access to the blockchain from an average household PC and internet connection.
That's the whole purpose it was created in the first place.

FTFY

Having access to the blockchain =! Running a node.

legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?
There is no reason why businesses shouldn't benefit from larger block sizes, unless of course people are conscious enough not to use those businesses that are trying to put them out of the game. In the case above, they likely over-projected in their business plans somewhere. Smiley

Huh?

If no-one is using Bitcoin to pay for things then how on earth are these business benefiting from larger block sizes?


"MASS ADOPTION" fantasies.

A lot of people here want mass adoption because they are selfish and they want to make some quick money, they don't really care about Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is useless if nobody can use it.

That'd be true if nobody could use it. Yet everyone can  Smiley

On the other hand it is not useless because it cannot settle your frappucino transaction on its blockchain, that's just pure ignorance but of course we are well used to that coming from you.

Again, if its not bitcoin it will be something else. That something else will a success while bitcoin will go down the path of irrelevence.

It is Bitcoin and will be Bitcoin. For everything else use fiat  Smiley

This reply is totally meaningless.
legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 3191
Leave no FUD unchallenged
Also, if your plan is still to make it as cheap as possible for people to run nodes.

The plan is to keep it permissionless.
At the current level it we have already maxed out average home connections.
What's your plan?

To not make it twice as bad by maxing out the blocksize too.

"We've hit one wall already, so we should definitely aim for this second one and speed up.  That's bound to make everything better".   Roll Eyes
jr. member
Activity: 42
Merit: 1
Any other questions?

...

Good!
jr. member
Activity: 42
Merit: 1
There is no reason why businesses shouldn't benefit from larger block sizes, unless of course people are conscious enough not to use those businesses that are trying to put them out of the game. In the case above, they likely over-projected in their business plans somewhere. Smiley

Huh?

If no-one is using Bitcoin to pay for things then how on earth are these business benefiting from larger block sizes?


"MASS ADOPTION" fantasies.

A lot of people here want mass adoption because they are selfish and they want to make some quick money, they don't really care about Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is useless if nobody can use it.

That'd be true if nobody could use it. Yet everyone can  Smiley

On the other hand it is not useless because it cannot settle your frappucino transaction on its blockchain, that's just pure ignorance but of course we are well used to that coming from you.

Again, if its not bitcoin it will be something else. That something else will a success while bitcoin will go down the path of irrelevence.

Bitcoin is the biggest network of its kind that allows you to have full access to the blockchain from an average household PC and internet connection.
That's the whole purpose it was created in the first place.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
There is no reason why businesses shouldn't benefit from larger block sizes, unless of course people are conscious enough not to use those businesses that are trying to put them out of the game. In the case above, they likely over-projected in their business plans somewhere. Smiley

Huh?

If no-one is using Bitcoin to pay for things then how on earth are these business benefiting from larger block sizes?


"MASS ADOPTION" fantasies.

A lot of people here want mass adoption because they are selfish and they want to make some quick money, they don't really care about Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is useless if nobody can use it.

That'd be true if nobody could use it. Yet everyone can  Smiley

On the other hand it is not useless because it cannot settle your frappucino transaction on its blockchain, that's just pure ignorance but of course we are well used to that coming from you.

Again, if its not bitcoin it will be something else. That something else will a success while bitcoin will go down the path of irrelevence.

It is Bitcoin and will be Bitcoin. For everything else use fiat  Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?
There is no reason why businesses shouldn't benefit from larger block sizes, unless of course people are conscious enough not to use those businesses that are trying to put them out of the game. In the case above, they likely over-projected in their business plans somewhere. Smiley

Huh?

If no-one is using Bitcoin to pay for things then how on earth are these business benefiting from larger block sizes?


"MASS ADOPTION" fantasies.

A lot of people here want mass adoption because they are selfish and they want to make some quick money, they don't really care about Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is useless if nobody can use it.

That'd be true if nobody could use it. Yet everyone can  Smiley

On the other hand it is not useless because it cannot settle your frappucino transaction on its blockchain, that's just pure ignorance but of course we are well used to that coming from you.

Again, if its not bitcoin it will be something else. That something else will a success while bitcoin will go down the path of irrelevence.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
There is no reason why businesses shouldn't benefit from larger block sizes, unless of course people are conscious enough not to use those businesses that are trying to put them out of the game. In the case above, they likely over-projected in their business plans somewhere. Smiley

Huh?

If no-one is using Bitcoin to pay for things then how on earth are these business benefiting from larger block sizes?


"MASS ADOPTION" fantasies.

A lot of people here want mass adoption because they are selfish and they want to make some quick money, they don't really care about Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is useless if nobody can use it.

That'd be true if nobody could use it. Yet everyone can  Smiley

On the other hand it is not useless because it cannot settle your frappucino transaction on its blockchain, that's just pure ignorance but of course we are well used to that coming from you.
jr. member
Activity: 42
Merit: 1
Also, if your plan is still to make it as cheap as possible for people to run nodes.

The plan is to keep it permissionless.
At the current level it we have already maxed out average home connections.
What's your plan?

Bitcoin is useless if nobody can use it.

If it's not useful, then don't use it.
The free market will resolve this issue quickly.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Consumers and merchants are never going to be the economic majority in Bitcoin

Not by themselves, perhaps, but throw a few others into the mix and the picture starts to look a little different.


Larger (than 1MB) blocks will naturally provide benefit to:

    Anyone who wants to use Bitcoin as a payments network
    VC investors
    Miners
    Merchants
    Payment processors
    Average users in general

Smaller blocks will naturally provide benefit to:

    Those who want to use Bitcoin as an asset class (i.e. not the average user)
    Those wanting to run full nodes cheaply (i.e. not the average user)
    Those who don't care if the average user is priced off the main chain (i.e. definitely not the average user)


Pretty sure that first group will agree on a proposal before too long.  We'll see if you're right about them not being an economic majority.  

The "picture" might look different because your fabricate it to fit your twisted view of how you believe it should work.

Here's how the decision process unfolds in reality.

Tier 1
Network peers (nodes)
Bitcoin holders

Tier 2
Miners

Tier 3
Exchanges

Tier 4
Everyone else (merchants, payment processors, consumers, redditards, Fidelity & other banking parasites)

TLDR; if you don't have the support of the network peers and the "bitcoin rich list" your fork goes the way of XT which goes the way of Stannis at Winterfell -> #REKT


Okay Mr. "everyone else is beneath me".  Whatever you say.   Roll Eyes

Why is it that anyone who absorbs MP rhetoric also inherits his colossal egotism?

Also, if your plan is still to make it as cheap as possible for people to run nodes to support a chain they can't afford to transact on, it's still a stupid plan.  No one is going to support a network that doesn't support them.  Either it benefits everyone, or everyone goes elsewhere and you can hodl your defunct novelty toy when the miners go elsewhere with them.

It's not. You just severely lack imagination and understanding of economics. Bitcoin is the fuel for a whole ecosystem, it will not be limited to its blockchain.

If your plan is for everyone to transact on the Bitcoin blockchain then we might as well just scrap the whole thing and keep our fiat.

legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?
There is no reason why businesses shouldn't benefit from larger block sizes, unless of course people are conscious enough not to use those businesses that are trying to put them out of the game. In the case above, they likely over-projected in their business plans somewhere. Smiley

Huh?

If no-one is using Bitcoin to pay for things then how on earth are these business benefiting from larger block sizes?


"MASS ADOPTION" fantasies.

A lot of people here want mass adoption because they are selfish and they want to make some quick money, they don't really care about Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is useless if nobody can use it.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
There is no reason why businesses shouldn't benefit from larger block sizes, unless of course people are conscious enough not to use those businesses that are trying to put them out of the game. In the case above, they likely over-projected in their business plans somewhere. Smiley

Huh?

If no-one is using Bitcoin to pay for things then how on earth are these business benefiting from larger block sizes?


"MASS ADOPTION" fantasies.

A lot of people here want mass adoption because they are selfish and they want to make some quick money, they don't really care about Bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 3191
Leave no FUD unchallenged

Consumers and merchants are never going to be the economic majority in Bitcoin

Not by themselves, perhaps, but throw a few others into the mix and the picture starts to look a little different.


Larger (than 1MB) blocks will naturally provide benefit to:

    Anyone who wants to use Bitcoin as a payments network
    VC investors
    Miners
    Merchants
    Payment processors
    Average users in general

Smaller blocks will naturally provide benefit to:

    Those who want to use Bitcoin as an asset class (i.e. not the average user)
    Those wanting to run full nodes cheaply (i.e. not the average user)
    Those who don't care if the average user is priced off the main chain (i.e. definitely not the average user)


Pretty sure that first group will agree on a proposal before too long.  We'll see if you're right about them not being an economic majority.  

The "picture" might look different because your fabricate it to fit your twisted view of how you believe it should work.

Here's how the decision process unfolds in reality.

Tier 1
Network peers (nodes)
Bitcoin holders

Tier 2
Miners

Tier 3
Exchanges

Tier 4
Everyone else (merchants, payment processors, consumers, redditards, Fidelity & other banking parasites)

TLDR; if you don't have the support of the network peers and the "bitcoin rich list" your fork goes the way of XT which goes the way of Stannis at Winterfell -> #REKT


Okay Mr. "everyone else is beneath me".  Whatever you say.   Roll Eyes

Why is it that anyone who absorbs MP rhetoric also inherits his colossal egotism?

Also, if your plan is still to make it as cheap as possible for people to run nodes to support a chain they can't afford to transact on, it's still a stupid plan.  No one is going to support a network that doesn't support them.  Either it benefits everyone, or everyone goes elsewhere and you can hodl your defunct novelty toy when the miners go elsewhere with them.
jr. member
Activity: 42
Merit: 1
Changing the protocol rules is identical to a relatively rare and discreet transition stages that any star undergoes in order to find a new balance point, when the old one no longer serves its accumulated mass. That's when the block size limit needs to be raised. The new limit needs to resonate with the whole ecosystem as it's supposed to represent the interests of the whole. It needs to preserve enough mass in the outer shell (users and validators), but leave enough space and entropy for internal competition (businesses and miners) to continue to produce goods with higher energy levels than before.

Taking this analogy further...

We can observe that the energy levels (or stress-tests) in the core have risen
and the outer shell (of full nodes) is being challenged having hard time holding up (at home).

It's definitely not the right time to increase the energy level even further (raising the block limit),
but on the contrary a time to invite more full nodes to be able to sustain the reaction.

Any non-consensual fork at this level might result in the Coronal Mass Ejection (or CME) type of event
and can be viewed as another "Fly, You Fools" situation. Grin
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Unfortunately, the bitcoin community seems to have a total lack of leadership at present.  From reading many forum posts one might conclude that the bitcoin community is a foolocracy.  (The more conspiratorial inclined may chose to describe the situation as the result of an organized campaign by bitcoin's enemies.)
I am not a Bitcoin enemy but I think Bitcoin is losing its way in getting pushed around with this whole block size debate (that seems to be far more about politics and control rather than anything else).

Patience is the first thing I think those that actually believe in the invention should have - buying coffees for BTC might end up being the final result but it isn't what we should be caring about now.
This debate is about politics and control the sooner we can all come to realize this the sooner this debate will be resolved.
would you not agree that politics are not a sufficient reason for a hard protocol change? consensus may make bitcoin a bit of a dinosaur, but it is a critical security feature built into bitcoin. until a commit is supported by an extreme supermajority, consensus says no protocol change. that may be disappointing to some, but it is what keeps the blockchain safe to transact on. a fork based on politics is an excellent context for a civil war.

(why 75%? let's just do 51% and get on with it Tongue)
If you define politics as the the study or practice of the distribution of power, it has a very wide meaning in the definition. If the people want a civil war then a civil war it should become, if Bitcoin reflects the will of the economic majority. So hypothetically if there was a fifty fifty split then splitting Bitcoin in half would be justified in this case if the differences are fundamental enough. Which I do not think is the case presently with the blocksize debate, I think we should be able to find consensus and all agree on a blocksize increase at least, otherwise I am confident there will be a split. 51% is indeed enough to fork the network if the disagreement is fundamental enough to justify such an action. Part of the beauty of this solution within Bitcoin is that it does solve the problem of the tyranny of the majority.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Now, let's see, who is going to benefit from the removal of the block size limit.
1) Businesses. Yes, they are likely sitting on a decent network connection and will be able to process more txs and serve more customers.

Maybe you didn't read that BitPay has sacked most of their staff today basically because "there are hardly any customers" (at least not enough to sustain their current business model).

So we should increase the block size for businesses to serve customers that actually "don't exist"?


This is a "chicken and egg" problem.  If you wait for business before building it, they will never come, because they will see there is nothing there.  If you build it, you take a risk and they might not come.  In which case, you are stuck with what you've built.

In the case of a blocksize increase, you are stuck with a few lines of changed code that will cost almost nothing to deploy.  You won't even be stuck with any larger blocks if no business does come, except possibly some spam.  Even some spam won't necessarily be bad, because it might force the software to improve, so as to make more efficient in use of storage, bandwidth, and processing resources.

Unfortunately, the bitcoin community seems to have a total lack of leadership at present.  From reading many forum posts one might conclude that the bitcoin community is a foolocracy.  (The more conspiratorial inclined may chose to describe the situation as the result of an organized campaign by bitcoin's enemies.

No it is not a "chicken and egg" problem.

What you are building is monetary gravity. By buying bitcoins and holding them you are charging a battery that stores wealth and rewards saving because of its deflationary nature.

If you build it, they will come but you need not to worry about them at the present.

Well who needs merchants anyway?

Quote
Who Needs Merchants Anyway?
Hoarders are more important than merchants. If a restaurant downtown starts accepting bitcoins, this does not necessarily create an incentive for anybody to buy more bitcoins. Why would anyone bother if they can still just use a credit card? If you can convince a merchant to accept bitcoins and stop accepting dollars, then I’ll be impressed.

Unless a merchant is offering something that cannot be bought for dollars, or at least offering a discount, he is only benefiting Bitcoin to the extent that he encourages more hoarding. If he immediately converts the bitcoins he receives as payment into dollars, and if his customers only buy bitcoins so as to spend them at his shop shortly thereafter, then neither has much direct effect on Bitcoin’s demand. The real hero is the hoarder behind the scenes who buys from the merchant and enables him to convert his payments into dollars.

http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/im-hoarding-bitcoins-and-no-you-cant-have-any

You won't even be stuck with any larger blocks if no business does come, except possibly some spam.

Maybe you've never heard the phrase "supply creates its own demand"?

Case in point: Fidelity schmucks waiting to "turn on their switch" and fill the blockchain with their spammy non-monetary transactions.
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1483
Unfortunately, the bitcoin community seems to have a total lack of leadership at present.  From reading many forum posts one might conclude that the bitcoin community is a foolocracy.  (The more conspiratorial inclined may chose to describe the situation as the result of an organized campaign by bitcoin's enemies.)
I am not a Bitcoin enemy but I think Bitcoin is losing its way in getting pushed around with this whole block size debate (that seems to be far more about politics and control rather than anything else).

Patience is the first thing I think those that actually believe in the invention should have - buying coffees for BTC might end up being the final result but it isn't what we should be caring about now.
This debate is about politics and control the sooner we can all come to realize this the sooner this debate will be resolved.

would you not agree that politics are not a sufficient reason for a hard protocol change? consensus may make bitcoin a bit of a dinosaur, but it is a critical security feature built into bitcoin. until a commit is supported by an extreme supermajority, consensus says no protocol change. that may be disappointing to some, but it is what keeps the blockchain safe to transact on. a fork based on politics is an excellent context for a civil war.

(why 75%? let's just do 51% and get on with it Tongue)
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
The "picture" might look different because your fabricate it to fit your twisted view of how you believe it should work.

Here's how the decision process unfolds in reality.

Tier 1
Network peers (nodes)
Bitcoin holders

Tier 2
Miners

Tier 3
Exchanges

Tier 4
Everyone else (merchants, payment processors, consumers, redditards, Fidelity & other banking parasites)

TLDR; if you don't have the support of the network peers and the "bitcoin rich list" your fork goes the way of XT which goes the way of Stannis at Winterfell -> #REKT
There should be no tiers in the decision making process. The consensus should be formed by the economic majority in the form of running full nodes and mining. You are wrong in maintaining this arbitrary tiered ordering of the decision making process, this does not reflect the reality today and this should not be how decisions are made either.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
There is no reason why businesses shouldn't benefit from larger block sizes, unless of course people are conscious enough not to use those businesses that are trying to put them out of the game. In the case above, they likely over-projected in their business plans somewhere. Smiley

Huh?

If no-one is using Bitcoin to pay for things then how on earth are these business benefiting from larger block sizes?


"MASS ADOPTION" fantasies.

Don't you know that a block size increase will unleash Bitcoin to the masses. It's actually why they're not using it right now. Just the other day my grand ma was asking me "when are they going to increase this goddamn blocksize so I can spend my bitcoinz"

 Wink
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