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Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 182. (Read 378996 times)

hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista

Did you somehow miss the part where actual Bitcoin transactions are a marginal use case that is quite irrelevant to actual adoption as a speculative asset/store of wealth?

ROFL!!  Aw, dude, you're killing me. Just when I thought you couldnt get more retarded you spring this one on me!!  You still think this whole system is just a big pot of gold at the end of a rainbow somewhere, don't you?  That magical wealth has been created by .... Math? 
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
XT was rejected. Get over it, we'll be scaling up without BIP101 or XT. Go away.

The only thing that has been OVERWHELMINGLY rejected is the "no increase in blocksize' mantra trotted out by core devs for the last 12 months. That hope and dream is lying in tatters on the ground as they scramble to reformulate their stand to include "Hey, bigger blocks are ok!!"  That is the great victory that XT has brought about.

Revisionist much? 

XT's "great victory" only resulted in the functional ascendency of BIP000.   Cool

The blocksize debate is just as, if not more, deadlocked than before the XT fiasco.  That stalemate is EXACTLY the outcome Team 1MB wanted (TYVM!).

We Core defenders stuck XT's ludicrous plans in the deep freeze, just like Israel did with Dubya's Roadmap to Peace.  There, there.  Try not to be such a poor sport about it.   Wink

Quote
This XT move created a lot of division. So if XT was secretly designed to cause so much division that the block size could never be changed (i.e. nothing resembling consensus could ever be formed), then XT might be a success.

The only revisionism going on there is pretending that XT was never a deadly serious (ie overambitious) attempt at an actual governance coup, which was willing to risk catastrophic consensus failure in order to achieve narrow process and technical changes of strictly limited value.

You are, by retroactively reframing XT as merely some kind of magical motivational poster, desperately trying to avoid the stinging cognitive dissonance of its inglorious defeat.

Team Gavin said things and acted as if XT would destroy Core with a bang, but what happened is XT died with only the faintest of whimpers.

And so, having crushed the enemies of Core, we now enjoy the lamentations of their women.   Grin
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Increase the block size and if Core takes to long to do it then an alternative implementation of Bitcoin will.

"IF?"  "IF?"  "IF?"

From where did this wild "IF" suddenly appear?

All summer long, you Gavinistas were screaming that Core has already taken too long, and as a result Bitcoin is (for the greater profit of Blockstream) choking and dying, thus justifying [email protected] and [email protected]'s governance coup.

Now that XT got fukkin' rekt, you want to backpedal to a conditional hedge?

Get your story straight, chump!   Cheesy
I think we should increase the blocksize before the network becomes overloaded. However if Core and the community does take to long and the network does become overloaded then I am confident that another implementation will increase the block size instead. Allowing the network to become overloaded would hamper adoption and confidence in Bitcoin that is why I think we should increase the block size before that happens. There is no backpedaling in that, it is completely consistent with what I have been saying before.

There is no such thing as the network being "overloaded". Users paying enough fees will get their transactions processed and others will have to wait. If they decide that the wait is too long they will find another alternative for whatever transaction they wish to process.

Moreover, this network "congestion" has little impact over nodes and miners. Coincidentally they are the one to decide whether or not an alternative protocol is to be implemented.

You start under the premise that Bitcoin adopters are dying to transact over the network. Reality indicates quite the opposite. Again, you are conflating your delusions of Bitcoin adoption and what you would like it to be with what it actually is and how it is currently used.
If the network did become "overloaded" or "congested" as you say. Transactions might take days to be confirmed and other transactions might not be confirmed at all depending on the fee. It would however be difficult to determine how much of a fee you would actually need in order to even get your transaction processed. This would essentially render transactions on the Bitcoin network unreliable, this would not be a good user experience, especially for people that are new to Bitcoin, and this would seriously hamper adoption and public perception.

Did you somehow miss the part where actual Bitcoin transactions are a marginal use case that is quite irrelevant to actual adoption as a speculative asset/store of wealth?

You start under the premise that Bitcoin adopters are dying to transact over the network. Reality indicates quite the opposite. Again, you are conflating your delusions of Bitcoin adoption and what you would like it to be with what it actually is and how it is currently used.
You think that Bitcoin transactions are irrelevant to the adoption of Bitcoin? It can be both a store of wealth and a currency, the two are not mutually exclusive actually they are synergistic. Increasing the utility of Bitcoin does increase its value and thereby does make it a better store of wealth. I have heard this said often now but it is a false dichotomy, Bitcoin can be many things to many different people.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Increase the block size and if Core takes to long to do it then an alternative implementation of Bitcoin will.

"IF?"  "IF?"  "IF?"

From where did this wild "IF" suddenly appear?

All summer long, you Gavinistas were screaming that Core has already taken too long, and as a result Bitcoin is (for the greater profit of Blockstream) choking and dying, thus justifying [email protected] and [email protected]'s governance coup.

Now that XT got fukkin' rekt, you want to backpedal to a conditional hedge?

Get your story straight, chump!   Cheesy
I think we should increase the blocksize before the network becomes overloaded. However if Core and the community does take to long and the network does become overloaded then I am confident that another implementation will increase the block size instead. Allowing the network to become overloaded would hamper adoption and confidence in Bitcoin that is why I think we should increase the block size before that happens. There is no backpedaling in that, it is completely consistent with what I have been saying before.

There is no such thing as the network being "overloaded". Users paying enough fees will get their transactions processed and others will have to wait. If they decide that the wait is too long they will find another alternative for whatever transaction they wish to process.

Moreover, this network "congestion" has little impact over nodes and miners. Coincidentally they are the one to decide whether or not an alternative protocol is to be implemented.

You start under the premise that Bitcoin adopters are dying to transact over the network. Reality indicates quite the opposite. Again, you are conflating your delusions of Bitcoin adoption and what you would like it to be with what it actually is and how it is currently used.
If the network did become "overloaded" or "congested" as you say. Transactions might take days to be confirmed and other transactions might not be confirmed at all depending on the fee. It would however be difficult to determine how much of a fee you would actually need in order to even get your transaction processed. This would essentially render transactions on the Bitcoin network unreliable, this would not be a good user experience, especially for people that are new to Bitcoin, and this would seriously hamper adoption and public perception.

Did you somehow miss the part where actual Bitcoin transactions are a marginal use case that is quite irrelevant to actual adoption as a speculative asset/store of wealth?

You start under the premise that Bitcoin adopters are dying to transact over the network. Reality indicates quite the opposite. Again, you are conflating your delusions of Bitcoin adoption and what you would like it to be with what it actually is and how it is currently used.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

There is no conditional hedge.  Bitcoin is moving forward with bigger blocks, whether you like it or not.

Enjoy your pain.  

Says who?

Either way a 1 MB incremental raise over 2 years or some 15% YOY sounds like core devs throwing redditards a bone to keep you distracted while they work on proper scaling solutions.

The 8 MB increase on an exponential schedule which all the noobs were clamoring for got properly rekt and this all that matters really.

Says about 70% of miners. Says the vast majority of nodes.

No point in trying to mitigate your butthurt by trying to say "we were only against 8mb - other block sizes are ok!!" because we know the truth.

You have been outmaneuvered.  While you were screaming about "XT" and gavincoins, the whole debate changed focus and has been pretty much decided behind your back.

If you are feeling cheated and irrelevant right now - Dont worry - its because you are.   Grin  Its a classic trick naive people always fall for - throw them a big red flag that they can go after, screaming and shouting and threatening, while all the time the real debate gets resolved by those who can play the game effectively.

Fortunately we don't take decisions based on what miners want. What a stupid thing that would be  Cheesy

I'm guessing you pulled the "vast majority of nodes" out of your ass?

You used to be a better troll Lambchop  Undecided
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Increase the block size and if Core takes to long to do it then an alternative implementation of Bitcoin will.

"IF?"  "IF?"  "IF?"

From where did this wild "IF" suddenly appear?

All summer long, you Gavinistas were screaming that Core has already taken too long, and as a result Bitcoin is (for the greater profit of Blockstream) choking and dying, thus justifying [email protected] and [email protected]'s governance coup.

Now that XT got fukkin' rekt, you want to backpedal to a conditional hedge?

Get your story straight, chump!   Cheesy
I think we should increase the blocksize before the network becomes overloaded. However if Core and the community does take to long and the network does become overloaded then I am confident that another implementation will increase the block size instead. Allowing the network to become overloaded would hamper adoption and confidence in Bitcoin that is why I think we should increase the block size before that happens. There is no backpedaling in that, it is completely consistent with what I have been saying before.

There is no such thing as the network being "overloaded". Users paying enough fees will get their transactions processed and others will have to wait. If they decide that the wait is too long they will find another alternative for whatever transaction they wish to process.

Moreover, this network "congestion" has little impact over nodes and miners. Coincidentally they are the one to decide whether or not an alternative protocol is to be implemented.

You start under the premise that Bitcoin adopters are dying to transact over the network. Reality indicates quite the opposite. Again, you are conflating your delusions of Bitcoin adoption and what you would like it to be with what it actually is and how it is currently used.
If the network did become "overloaded" or "congested" as you say. Transactions might take days to be confirmed and other transactions might not be confirmed at all depending on the fee. It would however be difficult to determine how much of a fee you would actually need in order to even get your transaction processed. This would essentially render transactions on the Bitcoin network unreliable, this would not be a good user experience, especially for people that are new to Bitcoin, and this would seriously hamper adoption and public perception.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista

We have already given you the proper counter arguments (Pareto, etc). 

LMAO!! you are some clown. Seriously. Thats the funniest statement in the whole debate. Well done.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista

There is no conditional hedge.  Bitcoin is moving forward with bigger blocks, whether you like it or not.

Enjoy your pain.  

Says who?

Either way a 1 MB incremental raise over 2 years or some 15% YOY sounds like core devs throwing redditards a bone to keep you distracted while they work on proper scaling solutions.

The 8 MB increase on an exponential schedule which all the noobs were clamoring for got properly rekt and this all that matters really.

Says about 70% of miners. Says the vast majority of nodes.

No point in trying to mitigate your butthurt by trying to say "we were only against 8mb - other block sizes are ok!!" because we know the truth.

You have been outmaneuvered.  While you were screaming about "XT" and gavincoins, the whole debate changed focus and has been pretty much decided behind your back.

If you are feeling cheated and irrelevant right now - Dont worry - its because you are.   Grin  Its a classic trick naive people always fall for - throw them a big red flag that they can go after, screaming and shouting and threatening, while all the time the real debate gets resolved by those who can play the game effectively.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
Yes, I know you'd love for Bitcoin to be a tool of wealth redistribution, but that is not how it works and it was never meant to be so. Stop conflating your delusions with reality.

If Bitcoin is adopted by the world's economic majority then by definition it has become the standard for money. This necessarily translates into its adoption by the remaining 80% which, as any herd does, will follow. As such, having our financial system operate on the sound economic theory of Bitcoin will benefit EVERYONE, even if the 80% retain little control over it.

I'm sorry but you have terrible understanding of economics and how this world operates. You might think your opinion holds value but seeing as most of it is pure delusion and ignorance you don't get to pull the "agree to disagree" argument. How you'd like the world to work is not representative of how it actually does work.
Bitcoin does bring about wealth redistribution whether you like it or not. How about instead of telling me that my opinion is one of pure delusion and ignorance you give me a counter argument instead. That would be more convincing.

We have already given you the proper counter arguments (Pareto, etc).  You are not convinced because you are incapable of understanding them.

You are lucky to have such excellent teachers here, but our efforts to cure your stupendous ignorance are to no avail.

Oh well...you really should be out enjoying your sophomore year (with parties/girls/drugs/music) instead of displaying your delusional naivete to a forum that knows better.   Smiley
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Increase the block size and if Core takes to long to do it then an alternative implementation of Bitcoin will.

"IF?"  "IF?"  "IF?"

From where did this wild "IF" suddenly appear?

All summer long, you Gavinistas were screaming that Core has already taken too long, and as a result Bitcoin is (for the greater profit of Blockstream) choking and dying, thus justifying [email protected] and [email protected]'s governance coup.

Now that XT got fukkin' rekt, you want to backpedal to a conditional hedge?

Get your story straight, chump!   Cheesy
I think we should increase the blocksize before the network becomes overloaded. However if Core and the community does take to long and the network does become overloaded then I am confident that another implementation will increase the block size instead. Allowing the network to become overloaded would hamper adoption and confidence in Bitcoin that is why I think we should increase the block size before that happens. There is no backpedaling in that, it is completely consistent with what I have been saying before.

There is no such thing as the network being "overloaded". Users paying enough fees will get their transactions processed and others will have to wait. If they decide that the wait is too long they will find another alternative for whatever transaction they wish to process.

Moreover, this network "congestion" has little impact over nodes and miners. Coincidentally they are the one to decide whether or not an alternative protocol is to be implemented.

You start under the premise that Bitcoin adopters are dying to transact over the network. Reality indicates quite the opposite. Again, you are conflating your delusions of Bitcoin adoption and what you would like it to be with what it actually is and how it is currently used.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Increase the block size and if Core takes to long to do it then an alternative implementation of Bitcoin will.

"IF?"  "IF?"  "IF?"

From where did this wild "IF" suddenly appear?

All summer long, you Gavinistas were screaming that Core has already taken too long, and as a result Bitcoin is (for the greater profit of Blockstream) choking and dying, thus justifying [email protected] and [email protected]'s governance coup.

Now that XT got fukkin' rekt, you want to backpedal to a conditional hedge?

Get your story straight, chump!   Cheesy
I think we should increase the blocksize before the network becomes overloaded. However if Core and the community does take to long and the network does become overloaded then I am confident that another implementation will increase the block size instead. Allowing the network to become overloaded would hamper adoption and confidence in Bitcoin that is why I think we should increase the block size before that happens. There is no backpedaling in that, it is completely consistent with what I have been saying before.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
if bitcoin doesn't scale soon there will be a huge demand for an alternative solution

"Will be?"  "Will be?"  "Will be?"

From where did this wild "will be" appear?

All summer long, you Gavinistas were screaming that Core already took too long, and as a result Bitcoin is (for the greater profit of Blockstream) choking and dying, thus justifying [email protected] and [email protected]'s governance coup.

Now that XT got fukkin' rekt, you want to backpedal from the present to the future tense?

Get your story straight, chump!   Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
That's nice and all , however I suppose that BitcoinXT was the only project planning to increase the Blocksize of bitcoin (altcoin) .. now without what are we supposed to do with bigger blocks ? are Bitcoin Core developpers planning to do anything , if not there is no reason to continue using Bitcoin I suppose .. no mainstream = no future .  Huh

Where did you get the idea that Bitcoin needed to be adopted by mainstream to be successful in the first place?

Maybe he shares Frap.doc's African boy fetish?
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Increase the block size and if Core takes to long to do it then an alternative implementation of Bitcoin will.

"IF?"  "IF?"  "IF?"

From where did this wild "IF" suddenly appear?

All summer long, you Gavinistas were screaming that Core has already taken too long, and as a result Bitcoin is (for the greater profit of Blockstream) choking and dying, thus justifying [email protected] and [email protected]'s governance coup.

Now that XT got fukkin' rekt, you want to backpedal to a conditional hedge?

Get your story straight, chump!   Cheesy

There is no conditional hedge.  Bitcoin is moving forward with bigger blocks, whether you like it or not.

Enjoy your pain.  

Says who?

Either way a 1 MB incremental raise over 2 years or some 15% YOY sounds like core devs throwing redditards a bone to keep you distracted while they work on proper scaling solutions.

The 8 MB increase on an exponential schedule which all the noobs were clamoring for got properly rekt and this all that matters really.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista
Increase the block size and if Core takes to long to do it then an alternative implementation of Bitcoin will.

"IF?"  "IF?"  "IF?"

From where did this wild "IF" suddenly appear?

All summer long, you Gavinistas were screaming that Core has already taken too long, and as a result Bitcoin is (for the greater profit of Blockstream) choking and dying, thus justifying [email protected] and [email protected]'s governance coup.

Now that XT got fukkin' rekt, you want to backpedal to a conditional hedge?

Get your story straight, chump!   Cheesy

There is no conditional hedge.  Bitcoin is moving forward with bigger blocks, whether you like it or not.

Enjoy your pain. 
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
Increase the block size and if Core takes to long to do it then an alternative implementation of Bitcoin will.

"IF?"  "IF?"  "IF?"

From where did this wild "IF" suddenly appear?

All summer long, you Gavinistas were screaming that Core has already taken too long, and as a result Bitcoin is (for the greater profit of Blockstream) choking and dying, thus justifying [email protected] and [email protected]'s governance coup.

Now that XT got fukkin' rekt, you want to backpedal to a conditional hedge?

Get your story straight, chump!   Cheesy
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Bitcoin is consensus-critical, so you can't apply the same principles to it as you would to other open-source projects
We can apply some of the same principles to it since Bitcoin is also a open-source project.
Exactly. Some, not all.
Agreed.

You should not and can not enforce network consensus in the case of a split.
I certainly can't. It will resolve naturally, either one of forks dies, or it becomes an altcoin. Only one true Bitcoin can exist at a time. And this true Bitcoin will continue enforcing network consensus within itself.
True, however in the case of a theoritical 50/50 split they could both say that they are the true Bitcoin. Which would be the altcoin and which would be the true Bitcoin? A minority could even claim that they are the true Bitcoin and the other side of the fork is the altcoin or vice versa. The point is, which side is the "altcoin" and which side is the "true Bitcoin" is a matter of perspective in the case of a protocol fork.

Bitcoin is not about the tyranny of the majority. It's about tyranny of the protocol. Rules have to be enforced for the network to function.
You are advocating tyranny of the protocol, I disagree. Bitcoin is and should be voluntary.
I'm not advocating, I'm explaining to you how Bitcoin network consensus works. And Bitcoin is voluntary.
How can the protocol be a tyrany while Bitcoin remains completly voluntary, this is a contradiction. Bitcoin is complently voluntary in its use and 51% of the mining power can fork Bitcoin at any time, this is not consistant with a tyranny.

If you think that we should all rely on the internal decision making process of Core. Then we will run into some of the same problems that large corporations and states run into, since if we wanted the Core development to reflect the will of the economic majority or possible another measure of consensus. Then we would need to attempt to construct a type of centralized governance structure on top of Bitcoin in the form of Core development, this in my opinion would be in conflict to the principles of freedom and decentralization that Bitcoin was founded upon.
That's not what I think. I have alrealy explained to you that Bitcoin development is decentralized by nature. Anyone can create different implementations, and the economic majority is free to choose. And it chooses Core, that's reality. If Core fails, then a different implementation can win. But that's not the case now.
Agreed, however if Core does not increase the block size before the network becomes significantly overloaded then I will consider Core to have failed, then a different implementation will win, I hope that you can agree with that as well. There do need to be alternative implementations already in place if people do choose to change however, so I do not understand why you disagree with the idea of decentralization of development through multiple implementations and possibly competing development teams. Even if the majority of the work is done by the "reference implementation".
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Yes, I know you'd love for Bitcoin to be a tool of wealth redistribution, but that is not how it works and it was never meant to be so. Stop conflating your delusions with reality.

If Bitcoin is adopted by the world's economic majority then by definition it has become the standard for money. This necessarily translates into its adoption by the remaining 80% which, as any herd does, will follow. As such, having our financial system operate on the sound economic theory of Bitcoin will benefit EVERYONE, even if the 80% retain little control over it.

I'm sorry but you have terrible understanding of economics and how this world operates. You might think your opinion holds value but seeing as most of it is pure delusion and ignorance you don't get to pull the "agree to disagree" argument. How you'd like the world to work is not representative of how it actually does work.
Bitcoin does bring about wealth redistribution whether you like it or not. How about instead of telling me that my opinion is one of pure delusion and ignorance you give me a counter argument instead. That would be more convincing.

How about you don't bother me with your economic ignorance?

Wealth disparity is an inevitable outcome in any economy. Bitcoin is capitalism in its purest form. Stop trying to stick socialist shit to it it won't stick.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_distribution
Wealth disparity is indeed an inevitable outcome of any economy. However decreasing global and local inequality is a positive thing and not inconsistant with good capitalist theory.
Well the onus of proof on how Bitcoin will achieve this is on you. If your argument is that Bitcoin will achieve this by having every poor African adopt it before the economic majority does then your understanding of "capitalist theory" is broken.
I am not saying this, redistribution of wealth has already happened. Early adopters for instance already had an influx of wealth. If the price of Bitcoin goes up then our wealth increases as well, this is in effect a redistribution of wealth, its quite simple really.

Oh sure if you're willing to stretch the definition to such extent why not? Then I guess lottery is a tool for redistribution of wealth and so are penny stocks  Roll Eyes
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Yes, I know you'd love for Bitcoin to be a tool of wealth redistribution, but that is not how it works and it was never meant to be so. Stop conflating your delusions with reality.

If Bitcoin is adopted by the world's economic majority then by definition it has become the standard for money. This necessarily translates into its adoption by the remaining 80% which, as any herd does, will follow. As such, having our financial system operate on the sound economic theory of Bitcoin will benefit EVERYONE, even if the 80% retain little control over it.

I'm sorry but you have terrible understanding of economics and how this world operates. You might think your opinion holds value but seeing as most of it is pure delusion and ignorance you don't get to pull the "agree to disagree" argument. How you'd like the world to work is not representative of how it actually does work.
Bitcoin does bring about wealth redistribution whether you like it or not. How about instead of telling me that my opinion is one of pure delusion and ignorance you give me a counter argument instead. That would be more convincing.

How about you don't bother me with your economic ignorance?

Wealth disparity is an inevitable outcome in any economy. Bitcoin is capitalism in its purest form. Stop trying to stick socialist shit to it it won't stick.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_distribution
Wealth disparity is indeed an inevitable outcome of any economy. However decreasing global and local inequality is a positive thing and not inconsistant with good capitalist theory.
Well the onus of proof on how Bitcoin will achieve this is on you. If your argument is that Bitcoin will achieve this by having every poor African adopt it before the economic majority does then your understanding of "capitalist theory" is broken.
I am not saying this, redistribution of wealth has already happened. Early adopters for instance already had an influx of wealth. If the price of Bitcoin goes up then our wealth increases as well, this is in effect a redistribution of wealth, its quite simple really.
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