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Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 42. (Read 378991 times)

hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Also, what?: "All the XT-folks who believed increasing the block size is the only way to scale Bitcoin"

That would be like me saying that all the 1MB people think that increasing the blocksize should not be any part of scaling the blockchain. OF course they don't, do they?

bett, you talk the largest amount of shit out of almost everyone.

XT proponents dismissed every other proposition for any reason they could think of, they rejected:

  • Lightning
  • Decreasing the block interval
  • 2-4-8
  • IBLT
  • Separating tx blocks from coinbase blocks
  • Dynamic cap
  • Countless others I cannot recall currently

"XT-folks who believed increasing the block size is the only way to scale Bitcoin" is what this thread has largely been about, you and others variously rejected a whole catalogue of more credible/responsible scaling schemes.

Oh, and what a surprise; another XT shit-talker (you, bett) has come back to say: "XT wasn't so bad!". What next? Presumably: "Have you considered that XT was the answer all along?"
You are generalizing and stereotyping a huge group of people, as if they are not even individuals. Such generalizations are always wrong, this is self evident.
sr. member
Activity: 433
Merit: 267
Dearest Carlton, I have never *ever* said larger blocks is the only way. I have categorically stated the opposite on many occasions. Which begs the question are you even listening?
That's not what "begging the question" means. If you wanted to say he was begging the question here, then you could have said, "You asserted that I said these things, but that begs the question; Did I actually say these things?"
That might be spurious on other grounds (Was he actually saying that you said that?), but it would at least be an accurate usage of the Begging the Question Fallacy.
That is, unless you are actually trying to argue that the point Carlton has been trying to make is that he was listening.
Anyway... Carry on.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
I never claimed that the economic majority is presently siding with XT, I am not in a position to know that, furthermore I suspect that January will be a very informative month in that regard. So you are arguing a straw man here, for the rest of your post you have not actually made any arguments.
Why January? Something to do with XT? Why do you suspect January will be informative wrt "economic majority"?

I must have misread the following from you:

However the core developers should not decide what goes into the Bitcoin protocol, this is a very important distinction, it is the economic majority that should and does ultimately decide on what the Bitcoin protocol should be, not the core developers. That is why it is so important that we have multiple implementations of the Bitcoin protocol, including multiple competing development teams.
=> Core is evil, "economic majority" should decide

I do not think that the economic majority would want to pay $100 per transaction that is my point.
=> XT is good, wants to prevent increased fees, "economic majority" wants that too

Everything considered I can view XT as being the least totalitarian choice out of the two, especially considering that some of the Core developers oppose alternative implementations on principle, whereas XT embraces this concept instead.
=> XT is good alternative implementation, Core is evil totalitarian

It seems like Core does not want to test the consensus using proof of work and multiple implementations, therefore Core does just implement whatever they want to implement. I am saying that we should allow the economic majority to decide by allowing people to choose from multiple implementations, this is the best and really the only way to reach true and legitimate consensus.
=> Multiple implementations good ("economic majority" will make evil Core obsolete)

If you think your vision for a Bitcoin competitor is such a good idea, go and get your own hashrate to subject it to. Your agenda is to change a system that doesn't want your proposal, and you just won't go away. You're in a minority, and a decreasing minorty at that. The real plan to scale Bitcoin up responsibly is now underway with BIP 65 rolling out. Get your own coin.

The economic majority might not agree with you, time will tell. Bitcoin is also not your coin, it belongs to everyone, Satoshi's gift to the world.
=> "Economic majority" *might* hate evil Core

Satoshi decided for us. Should we tear apart the whole thing and have it rewritten by "the economic majority"?
The will of the economic majority is more important then Satoshi's vision. Invoking Satoshi's vision surely must be a mistake on your behalf however since he did support increasing the blocksize:
=> "economic majority" disagrees with brg444, thus agrees with XT huge blocks

For some issues however like the blocksize specifically, it does seem like some other alternative implementations are willing to implement this change sooner then Core is willing to. So when it comes to fundamental disagreements like the blocksize in this case at least having multiple implementations might speed up the implementation of what the economic majority wants. More then seventy five percent of the miners are voting for an increased blocksize after all.
=> multiple implementations good, "economic majority" does not want Core

XT is not a takeover of Bitcoin, I wish you would stop saying this, I can respect your position, but saying that XT is a takeover actually harms all of Bitcoin regardless of what you believe.

Rule by the economic majority is how Bitcoin is meant to be governed. So if the majority of people freely choose to adopt an alternative implementation of the Bitcoin protocol then this should be considered legitimate, even if you disagree. XT requires seventy five percent consensus in order for it to even initiate a fork after all.
=> XT is good, enables "economic majority" to decide

Enough with this. Please stop this masquerade. Write short and to the point.

There is also much more to Bitcoin governance then just the full nodes. That would be an oversimplification, the governance of Bitcoin exists as an interconnected web of variant interests, represented by the nodes as well as the miners among other parties.
There is no "governance of Bitcoin". Bitcoin is not a state. It is a p2p network.
There is such a thing as Bitcoin governance, decisions do still need to be made after all. You are simply just arguing another huge straw man here, you are misrepresenting my views.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
newbie
Activity: 24
Merit: 0
This thread has some very good opinions and points, makes for good reading. Thanks Smiley
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
This is in direct opposition to the repeated claim by you and others that all XT proponents claim its the only way.

Liar. No such quote exists

It only looks like wriggling if you think I have some hidden agenda. I don't I write exactly what I think, and leave it up to everyone else to misinterpret it!

And I do my interpreting out loud, problem?
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
Also, what?: "All the XT-folks who believed increasing the block size is the only way to scale Bitcoin"

That would be like me saying that all the 1MB people think that increasing the blocksize should not be any part of scaling the blockchain. OF course they don't, do they?

bett, you talk the largest amount of shit out of almost everyone.

XT proponents dismissed every other proposition for any reason they could think of, they rejected:

  • Lightning
  • Decreasing the block interval
  • 2-4-8
  • IBLT
  • Separating tx blocks from coinbase blocks
  • Dynamic cap
  • Countless others I cannot recall currently

"XT-folks who believed increasing the block size is the only way to scale Bitcoin" is what this thread has largely been about, you and others variously rejected a whole catalogue of more credible/responsible scaling schemes.

Oh, and what a surprise; another XT shit-talker (you, bett) has come back to say: "XT wasn't so bad!". What next? Presumably: "Have you considered that XT was the answer all along?"

Dearest Carlton, I have never *ever* said larger blocks is the only way. I have categorically stated the opposite on many occasions. Which begs the question are you even listening?


bett, you're wriggling visibly.

I never said you said what you said you never said: in other words, you're using the same BS strawman tactics that your friends were so fond of using.

Tell me more about how all XT proponents were not essentially presenting one choice only or certain doom. Oh no, that's right, you were talking shit.

I can't stop you misinterpreting everything I say so it fits your preconceived notions, but I can just keep restating what I think.

Anyone else who reads this thread can then come to their own conclusions about what I think. Any attempts at misdirection will then hopefully seen for what they are.

I don't think the only way to scale bitcoin is through blocksize increase.

This is in direct opposition to the repeated claim by you and others that all XT proponents claim its the only way.

It only looks like wriggling if you think I have some hidden agenda. I don't I write exactly what I think, and leave it up to everyone else to misinterpret it!
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1043
Cypherpunk (& cyberpunk)
A bunch of known companies are accepting the idea of XT. Not sure if that's good, or bad for the entire bitcoin ecosystem.
Time will show. I'm against the XT protocol.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
Also, what?: "All the XT-folks who believed increasing the block size is the only way to scale Bitcoin"

That would be like me saying that all the 1MB people think that increasing the blocksize should not be any part of scaling the blockchain. OF course they don't, do they?

bett, you talk the largest amount of shit out of almost everyone.

XT proponents dismissed every other proposition for any reason they could think of, they rejected:


Stupid argument. Some did, most didn't.

Well, if you accept that "some" XT proponents rejected every other proposal, then presumably they were championing those other proposals too?

They weren't though, and so they rejected them by omission. So maybe you can see that your argument is, in fact, a little thin.

As usual, I am happy to continue with this line of reasoning, do keep going.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
Also, what?: "All the XT-folks who believed increasing the block size is the only way to scale Bitcoin"

That would be like me saying that all the 1MB people think that increasing the blocksize should not be any part of scaling the blockchain. OF course they don't, do they?

bett, you talk the largest amount of shit out of almost everyone.

XT proponents dismissed every other proposition for any reason they could think of, they rejected:


Stupid argument. Some did, most didn't.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
Also, what?: "All the XT-folks who believed increasing the block size is the only way to scale Bitcoin"

That would be like me saying that all the 1MB people think that increasing the blocksize should not be any part of scaling the blockchain. OF course they don't, do they?

bett, you talk the largest amount of shit out of almost everyone.

XT proponents dismissed every other proposition for any reason they could think of, they rejected:

  • Lightning
  • Decreasing the block interval
  • 2-4-8
  • IBLT
  • Separating tx blocks from coinbase blocks
  • Dynamic cap
  • Countless others I cannot recall currently

"XT-folks who believed increasing the block size is the only way to scale Bitcoin" is what this thread has largely been about, you and others variously rejected a whole catalogue of more credible/responsible scaling schemes.

Oh, and what a surprise; another XT shit-talker (you, bett) has come back to say: "XT wasn't so bad!". What next? Presumably: "Have you considered that XT was the answer all along?"

Dearest Carlton, I have never *ever* said larger blocks is the only way. I have categorically stated the opposite on many occasions. Which begs the question are you even listening?


bett, you're wriggling visibly.

I never said you said what you said you never said: in other words, you're using the same BS strawman tactics that your friends were so fond of using.

Tell me more about how all XT proponents were not essentially presenting one choice only or certain doom. Oh no, that's right, you were talking shit.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
Also, what?: "All the XT-folks who believed increasing the block size is the only way to scale Bitcoin"

That would be like me saying that all the 1MB people think that increasing the blocksize should not be any part of scaling the blockchain. OF course they don't, do they?

bett, you talk the largest amount of shit out of almost everyone.

XT proponents dismissed every other proposition for any reason they could think of, they rejected:

  • Lightning
  • Decreasing the block interval
  • 2-4-8
  • IBLT
  • Separating tx blocks from coinbase blocks
  • Dynamic cap
  • Countless others I cannot recall currently

"XT-folks who believed increasing the block size is the only way to scale Bitcoin" is what this thread has largely been about, you and others variously rejected a whole catalogue of more credible/responsible scaling schemes.

Oh, and what a surprise; another XT shit-talker (you, bett) has come back to say: "XT wasn't so bad!". What next? Presumably: "Have you considered that XT was the answer all along?"

Dearest Carlton, I have never *ever* said larger blocks is the only way. I have categorically stated the opposite on many occasions. Which begs the question are you even listening?

Let me make it clear, I think we need bigger blocks and I backed XT as the only solid implementation.

I love IBLT, if I was a shit hot bitcoin coder I would be all over it but I'm just some crappy rails dev so I'm not.
I think LN is a good idea and is probably in fact *Necessary*

Decreasing the block interval is just bigger blocks. 2-4-8 is bigger blocks. Dynamic Cap is bigger blocks. Gimme an implementation already!?

Separating tx from coinbase I don't know about off the top of my head, so I can't possibly have been against it.

If you are confused after this then I think it's you, not me that needs to think hard about post content.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
Also, what?: "All the XT-folks who believed increasing the block size is the only way to scale Bitcoin"

That would be like me saying that all the 1MB people think that increasing the blocksize should not be any part of scaling the blockchain. OF course they don't, do they?

bett, you talk the largest amount of shit out of almost everyone.

XT proponents dismissed every other proposition for any reason they could think of, they rejected:

  • Lightning
  • Decreasing the block interval
  • 2-4-8
  • IBLT
  • Separating tx blocks from coinbase blocks
  • Dynamic cap
  • Countless others I cannot recall currently

"XT-folks who believed increasing the block size is the only way to scale Bitcoin" is what this thread has largely been about, you and others variously rejected a whole catalogue of more credible/responsible scaling schemes.

Oh, and what a surprise; another XT shit-talker (you, bett) has come back to say: "XT wasn't so bad!". What next? Presumably: "Have you considered that XT was the answer all along?"
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
I'd like to send a big warm middle finger to:

1. All the XT-folks who believed increasing the block size is the only way to scale Bitcoin. If 8mb was designed to be for 2 years, I guess they will shut up for 1 year, with 4x more transactions in 1mb blocks, and let the fee market develop.

This is a shell game being played by technocrats who are trying to fool the rubes.  The solution involves an accounting change of what is to be counted as belonging in a block.  It does not affect the amount of data that needs to be transmitted across the network and verified quickly by the nodes.

Perhaps there is an implicit assumption here that network/bandwidth constraints as a proxy for increased centralisation risk is not all its cracked up to be.

What I do like is that segwit does address the very valid concern of people parking everything including the kitchen sink in the blockchain, which is direct threat to how many transactions can fit in a block (and therefore TPS).

Also, what?: "All the XT-folks who believed increasing the block size is the only way to scale Bitcoin"

That would be like me saying that all the 1MB people think that increasing the blocksize should not be any part of scaling the blockchain. OF course they don't, do they?
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
I paint jtoomim
You're going to need a lot of paint, because misrepresenting the relative software complexity of blocksize increases and Segwit is not a great start: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3vwalg/andreasmantonopoulos_on_twitter_this_presentation/cxs5g2g?contex=1

It's pretty obvious that jtoomim and jgarzik are better suited to organize a compromise than a gmaxwell. That you are not interested is crystal clear. Thanks for the confirmation.
I also think a fork of the so called community would be better. You cannot have good relations with a side who is supported by censors, DDoSers, node fakers and cheerleaders who are in complicity with such practices.

what are you still doing here?

Zara's a masochist par excellence, he is constantly spitting vitriol about how contemptible he finds Bitcoin users Pseudo bitcoin users,

You have to be a bit masochistic if you want to fight against pseudo-bitcoiners (Cheerleaders of censorship/DDoS/faked nodes/Front National and all such disgusting things).
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
I paint jtoomim
You're going to need a lot of paint, because misrepresenting the relative software complexity of blocksize increases and Segwit is not a great start: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3vwalg/andreasmantonopoulos_on_twitter_this_presentation/cxs5g2g?contex=1

It's pretty obvious that jtoomim and jgarzik are better suited to organize a compromise than a gmaxwell. That you are not interested is crystal clear. Thanks for the confirmation.
I also think a fork of the so called community would be better. You cannot have good relations with a side who is supported by censors, DDoSers, node fakers and cheerleaders who are in complicity with such practices.

what are you still doing here?

Zara's a masochist par excellence, he is constantly spitting vitriol about how contemptible he finds Bitcoin users, yet he spends nearly every waking minute amongst them so he can tell them.

Maybe you'd get more out of life, Zara, if you did things that you do like, with people that you like also? It would improve your ability to get along with others a great deal.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
I paint jtoomim
You're going to need a lot of paint, because misrepresenting the relative software complexity of blocksize increases and Segwit is not a great start: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3vwalg/andreasmantonopoulos_on_twitter_this_presentation/cxs5g2g?contex=1

It's pretty obvious that jtoomim and jgarzik are better suited to organize a compromise than a gmaxwell. That you are not interested is crystal clear. Thanks for the confirmation.
I also think a fork of the so called community would be better. You cannot have good relations with a side who is supported by censors, DDoSers, node fakers and cheerleaders who are in complicity with such practices.

what are you still doing here?
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
I paint jtoomim
You're going to need a lot of paint, because misrepresenting the relative software complexity of blocksize increases and Segwit is not a great start: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3vwalg/andreasmantonopoulos_on_twitter_this_presentation/cxs5g2g?contex=1

It's pretty obvious that jtoomim and jgarzik are better suited to organize a compromise than a gmaxwell. That you are not interested is crystal clear. Thanks for the confirmation.
I also think a fork of the so called community would be better. You cannot have good relations with a side who is supported by censors, DDoSers, node fakers and cheerleaders who are in complicity with such practices.
staff
Activity: 4284
Merit: 8808
I paint jtoomim
You're going to need a lot of paint, because misrepresenting the relative software complexity of blocksize increases and Segwit is not a great start: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3vwalg/andreasmantonopoulos_on_twitter_this_presentation/cxs5g2g?contex=1
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
Some people are now ready for a compromise, some are not.

Are you seriously trying to paint yourself as compromising? You've easily been the most intransigent debater on bitcointalk.org by an exceptionally wide margin for several months.

I paint jtoomin and jgarzik as people who could organize a compromise:

https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3vxb89/jonathan_toomim_can_kick_proposal_block_size/cxricv5

Who?

Who, if not them? I'm leaning more toward a divorce. The difference between the two sides is too big:

http://forums.prohashing.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=672

That's what we were waiting for all along. So.. when do you fork off? Maybe VeritasSapere can help you with the whitepaper?

We will fork you off, but not tonight, dear.

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