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Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 43. (Read 378991 times)

legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
Some people are now ready for a compromise, some are not.

Are you seriously trying to paint yourself as compromising? You've easily been the most intransigent debater on bitcointalk.org by an exceptionally wide margin for several months.

I paint jtoomin and jgarzik as people who could organize a compromise:

https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3vxb89/jonathan_toomim_can_kick_proposal_block_size/cxricv5

Who?

Who, if not them? I'm leaning more toward a divorce. The difference between the two sides is too big:

http://forums.prohashing.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=672

That's what we were waiting for all along. So.. when do you fork off? Maybe VeritasSapere can help you with the whitepaper?

We will fork you off, but not tonight, dear.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Some people are now ready for a compromise, some are not.

Are you seriously trying to paint yourself as compromising? You've easily been the most intransigent debater on bitcointalk.org by an exceptionally wide margin for several months.

I paint jtoomin and jgarzik as people who could organize a compromise:

https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3vxb89/jonathan_toomim_can_kick_proposal_block_size/cxricv5

Who?

Who, if not them? I'm leaning more toward a divorce. The difference between the two sides is too big:

http://forums.prohashing.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=672

That's what we were waiting for all along. So.. when do you fork off? Maybe VeritasSapere can help you with the whitepaper?
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
Some people are now ready for a compromise, some are not.

Are you seriously trying to paint yourself as compromising? You've easily been the most intransigent debater on bitcointalk.org by an exceptionally wide margin for several months.

I paint jtoomin and jgarzik as people who could organize a compromise:

https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3vxb89/jonathan_toomim_can_kick_proposal_block_size/cxricv5

Who?

Who, if not them? I'm leaning more toward a divorce. The difference between the two sides is too big:

http://forums.prohashing.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=672
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
Some people are now ready for a compromise, some are not.

Are you seriously trying to paint yourself as compromising? You've easily been the most intransigent debater on bitcointalk.org by an exceptionally wide margin for several months.

I paint jtoomin and jgarzik as people who could organize a compromise:

https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3vxb89/jonathan_toomim_can_kick_proposal_block_size/cxricv5

Who?
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
Some people are now ready for a compromise, some are not.

Are you seriously trying to paint yourself as compromising? You've easily been the most intransigent debater on bitcointalk.org by an exceptionally wide margin for several months.

I paint jtoomim and jgarzik as people who could organize a compromise:

https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3vxb89/jonathan_toomim_can_kick_proposal_block_size/cxricv5
sr. member
Activity: 278
Merit: 254
I'd like to send a big warm middle finger to:

1. All the XT-folks who believed increasing the block size is the only way to scale Bitcoin. If 8mb was designed to be for 2 years, I guess they will shut up for 1 year, with 4x more transactions in 1mb blocks, and let the fee market develop.

This is a shell game being played by technocrats who are trying to fool the rubes.  The solution involves an accounting change of what is to be counted as belonging in a block.  It does not affect the amount of data that needs to be transmitted across the network and verified quickly by the nodes.



sr. member
Activity: 278
Merit: 254

The core developers absolutely do believe the market should decide upon the blocksize limit and direction of the codebase. I have never heard the argument from one of them that their should only be one implementation and people should be restricted to only using their repisitory.


I recall some discussions a while ago in which  one core developer defended a single reference implementation as defining Bitcoin.  As I recall, there were two separate discussions, one why the alternative approach used by the IETF (protocol specifications) was not appropriate to bitcoin and another indicating the risks of network forks due to alternate implementations, e.g. btcd.  I have not seen any change in this viewpoint in the form of public documents or forum posts.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
Some people are now ready for a compromise, some are not.

Are you seriously trying to paint yourself as compromising? You've easily been the most intransigent debater on bitcointalk.org by an exceptionally wide margin for several months.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
I never claimed that the economic majority is presently siding with XT, I am not in a position to know that, furthermore I suspect that January will be a very informative month in that regard. So you are arguing a straw man here, for the rest of your post you have not actually made any arguments.
Nobody is going to be siding with XT, so how about you stop with that 'we will see' nonsense? After the last conference it is pretty obvious where we're going. Even Hearn abandoned his project. It is time to admit defeat and move on.

More people are going to be siding with BIP101 than the BIPwaitandsee. After the last conference it is pretty obvious where we're going.

You seriously need to lay the pipe down. That crystal getting to your head.

BIP101 has been abandoned by even one of its most ardent defender:
http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011875.html


The 1MB-joke has also been abandoned by some 1MB proponents. Some people are now ready for a compromise, some are not.

The 1MB is not a joke, it is still in place.. Roll Eyes

legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
I never claimed that the economic majority is presently siding with XT, I am not in a position to know that, furthermore I suspect that January will be a very informative month in that regard. So you are arguing a straw man here, for the rest of your post you have not actually made any arguments.
Nobody is going to be siding with XT, so how about you stop with that 'we will see' nonsense? After the last conference it is pretty obvious where we're going. Even Hearn abandoned his project. It is time to admit defeat and move on.

More people are going to be siding with BIP101 than the BIPwaitandsee. After the last conference it is pretty obvious where we're going.

You seriously need to lay the pipe down. That crystal getting to your head.

BIP101 has been abandoned by even one of its most ardent defender:
http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011875.html


The 1MB-joke has also been abandoned by some 1MB proponents. Some people are now ready for a compromise, some are not.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
I never claimed that the economic majority is presently siding with XT, I am not in a position to know that, furthermore I suspect that January will be a very informative month in that regard. So you are arguing a straw man here, for the rest of your post you have not actually made any arguments.
Nobody is going to be siding with XT, so how about you stop with that 'we will see' nonsense? After the last conference it is pretty obvious where we're going. Even Hearn abandoned his project. It is time to admit defeat and move on.

More people are going to be siding with BIP101 than the BIPwaitandsee. After the last conference it is pretty obvious where we're going.

You seriously need to lay the pipe down. That crystal getting to your head.

BIP101 has been abandoned by even one of its most ardent defender:
http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011875.html

Get with the program would ya?
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
I never claimed that the economic majority is presently siding with XT, I am not in a position to know that, furthermore I suspect that January will be a very informative month in that regard. So you are arguing a straw man here, for the rest of your post you have not actually made any arguments.
Nobody is going to be siding with XT, so how about you stop with that 'we will see' nonsense? After the last conference it is pretty obvious where we're going. Even Hearn abandoned his project. It is time to admit defeat and move on.

More people are going to be siding with BIP101 than the BIPwaitandsee. After the last conference it is pretty obvious where we're going.
sr. member
Activity: 471
Merit: 250
BTC trader
I never claimed that the economic majority is presently siding with XT, I am not in a position to know that, furthermore I suspect that January will be a very informative month in that regard. So you are arguing a straw man here, for the rest of your post you have not actually made any arguments.
Why January? Something to do with XT? Why do you suspect January will be informative wrt "economic majority"?

I must have misread the following from you:

However the core developers should not decide what goes into the Bitcoin protocol, this is a very important distinction, it is the economic majority that should and does ultimately decide on what the Bitcoin protocol should be, not the core developers. That is why it is so important that we have multiple implementations of the Bitcoin protocol, including multiple competing development teams.
=> Core is evil, "economic majority" should decide

I do not think that the economic majority would want to pay $100 per transaction that is my point.
=> XT is good, wants to prevent increased fees, "economic majority" wants that too

Everything considered I can view XT as being the least totalitarian choice out of the two, especially considering that some of the Core developers oppose alternative implementations on principle, whereas XT embraces this concept instead.
=> XT is good alternative implementation, Core is evil totalitarian

It seems like Core does not want to test the consensus using proof of work and multiple implementations, therefore Core does just implement whatever they want to implement. I am saying that we should allow the economic majority to decide by allowing people to choose from multiple implementations, this is the best and really the only way to reach true and legitimate consensus.
=> Multiple implementations good ("economic majority" will make evil Core obsolete)

If you think your vision for a Bitcoin competitor is such a good idea, go and get your own hashrate to subject it to. Your agenda is to change a system that doesn't want your proposal, and you just won't go away. You're in a minority, and a decreasing minorty at that. The real plan to scale Bitcoin up responsibly is now underway with BIP 65 rolling out. Get your own coin.

The economic majority might not agree with you, time will tell. Bitcoin is also not your coin, it belongs to everyone, Satoshi's gift to the world.
=> "Economic majority" *might* hate evil Core

Satoshi decided for us. Should we tear apart the whole thing and have it rewritten by "the economic majority"?
The will of the economic majority is more important then Satoshi's vision. Invoking Satoshi's vision surely must be a mistake on your behalf however since he did support increasing the blocksize:
=> "economic majority" disagrees with brg444, thus agrees with XT huge blocks

For some issues however like the blocksize specifically, it does seem like some other alternative implementations are willing to implement this change sooner then Core is willing to. So when it comes to fundamental disagreements like the blocksize in this case at least having multiple implementations might speed up the implementation of what the economic majority wants. More then seventy five percent of the miners are voting for an increased blocksize after all.
=> multiple implementations good, "economic majority" does not want Core

XT is not a takeover of Bitcoin, I wish you would stop saying this, I can respect your position, but saying that XT is a takeover actually harms all of Bitcoin regardless of what you believe.

Rule by the economic majority is how Bitcoin is meant to be governed. So if the majority of people freely choose to adopt an alternative implementation of the Bitcoin protocol then this should be considered legitimate, even if you disagree. XT requires seventy five percent consensus in order for it to even initiate a fork after all.
=> XT is good, enables "economic majority" to decide

Enough with this. Please stop this masquerade. Write short and to the point.

There is also much more to Bitcoin governance then just the full nodes. That would be an oversimplification, the governance of Bitcoin exists as an interconnected web of variant interests, represented by the nodes as well as the miners among other parties.
There is no "governance of Bitcoin". Bitcoin is not a state. It is a p2p network.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 3000
Terminated.
I never claimed that the economic majority is presently siding with XT, I am not in a position to know that, furthermore I suspect that January will be a very informative month in that regard. So you are arguing a straw man here, for the rest of your post you have not actually made any arguments.
Nobody is going to be siding with XT, so how about you stop with that 'we will see' nonsense? After the last conference it is pretty obvious where we're going. Even Hearn abandoned his project. It is time to admit defeat and move on.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
... for the rest of your post you have not actually made any arguments.

Meheh, just look at who's talking.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Veritas Sapere trying to simultaneously claim that:

  • Economic majority got the wrong answer to the question of the blocksize increase
  • The will of the economic majority should be respected
  • Veritas Sapere can simply assert who the economic majority are and what their position is at any given time
  • BIP101 is the worst scaling scheme
  • BIP101 isn't such a bad scaling scheme
  • Soft forks are a "disgusting" abuse of power
  • Devs are free to implement soft forks as they please
  • Veritas Sapere does not hold contradictory and/or hypocritical views

Any more, VS? It's an interesting list so far, is it possible that you could make it even more logically incoherent?
There is not a single hypocrisy in my position that you have successfully pointed out. I also do not think the economic majority is presently wrong in regards to the question of the blocksize. I have already countered the other accusations of hypocrisy. It is not my fault that you seem to be unable to understand the subtlety and nuance of ethics and modern political thought.

I will attempt to explain it again in a more general form. Sometimes people have the right to do things even though these things might be wrong, this is not contradictory, this is respecting freedom and having tolerance. For instance I respect freedom of speech, however there are many things that people can say that are outright horrible and wrong, like hate speech for example. However in order to preserve freedom of speech we need to respect other peoples right to do things that we consider to be wrong. We can also apply this to the censorship in the Bitcoin community. It was wrong for Theymos to censor reddit, yet he did have the right to do so on the forum that he controlled. Can you see how this in fact is not a contradiction but a feature of a good ethical philosophy.
We should be learning to "understand the subtlety and nuance of ethics and modern political thought"  Huh

I'm completely confused by this "economic majority", it just doesn't make any sense. From https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Economic_majority:
Quote
The theory that the power to control the Bitcoin protocol is held by those able and willing to offer things of value for bitcoins (be it goods, services or other currencies).
Then it continues with some blabber about miners trying to change the protocol.  Huh

VS, this dubious "economic majority" theory holds much weight in your "arguments". And furthermore, you claim that this majority is with XT. This is completely misguided. Please try to understand the source code and the engineering behind Bitcoin, and then come with your stupid political thought philosophy madness. Meanwhile, you don't know what you're talking about. You keep making a fool of yourself, and you're similar to a central bank chairman, one of those high-IQ PhD fools.

If you insist with your foolishness, at least try to keep your posts small and to the point. When I'm reading your unending political philosophy thought ethics, I feel like I'm reading marxist articles.
I never claimed that the economic majority is presently siding with XT, I am not in a position to know that, furthermore I suspect that January will be a very informative month in that regard. So you are arguing a straw man here, for the rest of your post you have not actually made any arguments.

There is also much more to Bitcoin governance then just the full nodes. That would be an oversimplification, the governance of Bitcoin exists as an interconnected web of variant interests, represented by the nodes as well as the miners among other parties.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
member
Activity: 554
Merit: 11
CurioInvest [IEO Live]
I'd like to replace it with a generic mechanism that lets anyone with stationary coins over a threshold value broadcast small amounts of data per week to all participating nodes on a parallel p2p network... this would help discourage people from trying to stuff messaging things into the Bitcoin blockchain just to use our network for messages, and would provide a uniform mechanism for any client author to perform alerts... plus it would be a public utility encouraging people to hold Bitcoin (and hold it in their own possession, potentially). (And for Core, we'd make alerts use Script, like elements alpha does so it could use multisig.); but this is currently pretty far down on the priority list for me right now.

Bitcoin days destroyed, that sounds pretty cool.

Potentially this parallel p2p network could also be used by LN nodes to "advertise" their open channels and help LN participants find an appropriate payment path.
sr. member
Activity: 471
Merit: 250
BTC trader
In regards to Bitcoin being a type of democracy it is better then most state democracies at least because it is ruled by the economic majority, and there is also positive incentive build into the system.

Bitcoin is not ruled by an economic majority alone as you suggest, but a combination of nodes/developers/miners/merchants and exchanges. This means that unlike with an economic majority which control most states, you can have a developer in India without a cent to his name issue a pull request and heavily influence the direction of bitcoin if he can receive a rough consensus and offer something innovative and useful.    
I would describe it as a stratification of nodes/developers/miners/merchants and exchanges; each exists with a differing capabilities to exert influence on each other, over differing timescales. But actors from a single layer cannot determine the overall outcome. Changes to the network and it's software come about when some critical combination of the strata move in a given direction.
I can actually agree with this. It is all of these different actors that make up the consensus, which I refer to as the economic majority. Proof of work is the best way to measure consensus. The miners act as proxy for the economic majority, since the miners would not go against the economic majority since they are disincentivized to do so, this is part of the game theory and psychology that Bitcoin is build upon.

The developer in India in this example would need the support of the economic majority and a client implementation that would accept his pull request. In this sense the developer is fulfilling a preexisting need, the decision is still made by the economic majority, the consensus.

I think the economic majority is a good term to describe this collective will and power that flows from the nodes/developers/miners/merchants/exchanges/users/media/academia/payment processors etc. Decisions need to be made by the greater wisdom of the crowd and market. I can see that you disagree, I can respect your position, you do argue rationally unlike some other people here. I respectfully disagree, I would urge you to be reminded of history, our quasi democracies of today are far from ideal but they are still far better then most of the governments of the past. I view Bitcoin as being the next stage of this evolution, there are lessons to be learned from the tyrannies of the past. We should not entrust the future of Bitcoin with any organization or small group of people to make decisions for us, no matter how benign we think they might be, eventually power corrupts. This is why this power needs to become more distributed, this is also more inline with the ethos of decentralization and financial freedom within Bitcoin.

So, this "economic majority" is supposed to be some mithical flow of power from the people to ... Bitcoin?

In this case, it is clear that the "economic majority" is agreeing with the latest release of Bitcoin Core, and ignoring XT, BU, btcd, whatever. This means XT is not accepted and bigger blocks are not wanted.

Bitcoin is a p2p network. It's not a state. Only the people that are running full nodes are in control. They chose what code is running. Simple as that.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
I'd like to send a big warm middle finger to:

1. All the XT-folks who believed increasing the block size is the only way to scale Bitcoin. If 8mb was designed to be for 2 years, I guess they will shut up for 1 year, with 4x more transactions in 1mb blocks, and let the fee market develop.


Seems to be even less than a 2x througput boost:

http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011869.html
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