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Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 41. (Read 378991 times)

full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
★YoBit.Net★ 350+ Coins Exchange & Dice
There is such a thing as Bitcoin governance, decisions do still need to be made after all. You are simply just arguing another huge straw man here, you are misrepresenting my views.
Bitcoin is not a state, a corporation, a community, a tribe, or a family. It is a p2p network implementing a currency. If somebody governs it, the it has failed. Control and direction is the last thing it needs.

I don't care how many "straw man" "ad hominem" and other intellectual BS you are throwing around.  Roll Eyes

For one with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. For a political philosopher, everything looks like sheep needing herding.  Smiley


the main problem is that he is shooting all that kind of bs from weeks now and even ignores if you try to pin out other problems connected to that fact and that kills bitcoin, and anyway this thread was supposed to be a celebration about xt and bip101 fail instead we talk about those like if somebody still care about it
sr. member
Activity: 471
Merit: 250
BTC trader
There is such a thing as Bitcoin governance, decisions do still need to be made after all. You are simply just arguing another huge straw man here, you are misrepresenting my views.
Bitcoin is not a state, a corporation, a community, a tribe, or a family. It is a p2p network implementing a currency. If somebody governs it, the it has failed. Control and direction is the last thing it needs.

I don't care how many "straw man" "ad hominem" and other intellectual BS you are throwing around.  Roll Eyes

For one with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. For a political philosopher, everything looks like sheep needing herding.  Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1008
Finally cleans up issues with signature TX malleability, makes fraud proofs viable for real SPV security and incidentally frees up some capacity breathing room for the near term (2-3MB per block), who could argue against it? Unless there is some truly objectionable security risk discovered it should be soft-forked in ASAP. A few niggles about 'cleanest' way to do that but hopefully that wont turn into too much slide-rule swinging.

One issue is that if the "effective max block size" with SW is 4 MB, then the maximum bandwidth that a full node will have to deal with is the same as if we had a hardfork to 4 MB blocks. With the current way that the network functions and is laid out, this might be too much bandwidth. Maybe this could be somewhat addressed with IBLT, weak blocks, and other tech, but that stuff doesn't exist yet.

I think that there's basically agreement that 2 MB would be safe, though.

So reduce the actual block limit to 500KByte? (effective max 2 MB).

4 MB effective is probably a tad too large for the current bandwidth tech. now but I'm skeptical how often it would be hit in the near term. It is a worst case assuming 1MB of TX data and maximum number of signature data associated (high number of multi-sig, etc) in a single block but needs to be tested out for security implications what effect such a nasty block would have on the system of course.

no need to guess or estimate. actual data are available.

take a look at Pieter's tweet: https://twitter.com/pwuille/status/673710939678445571?s=09

1.75 for normal tx, more for others e.g. multisig. take into account that normal account represent more than 80% of the total.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
I think SW should be implemented as a hard fork. This gives people more freedom of choice, however I can not imagine many people opposing SW, it seems to be good and I can not see many downsides to this new breakthrough.

Quote from: Gavin Andresen
I think it is wise to design for success. Segregated witness is cool, but it isn’t a short-term (within the next six months to a year) solution to the problems we’re already seeing as we run into the one-megabyte block size limit.
This is also not a short term solution to the blocksize limit and for that matter also not a long term solution either. There is also disagreement in regards to different theories surrounding the fee market. Some people believe blocks should become consistently full, this seems to be the predominant position among the Core developers. There are a significant amount of people like myself however that fundamentally disagree with the economic theory underpinning this assumption.

Quote from: Konrad S Graf
Disagreements appear rooted more in differing opinions on economics, a specialized field entirely distinct from engineering, programming, and network design.
Quote from: Konrad S Graf
The block size limit has for the most part not ever been, and should not now be, used to determine the actual size of average blocks under normal network operating conditions. Real average block size ought to emerge from factors of supply and demand for what I will term “transaction-inclusion services.” Beginning to use the protocol block size limit to restrict the provision of transaction-inclusion services would be a radical change to Bitcoin. The burden of proof is therefore on persons advocating using the protocol limit in this novel way.
Quote from: Konrad S Graf
Transaction-fee levels are not in any general need of being artificially pushed upward. A 130-year transition phase was planned into Bitcoin during which the full transition from block reward revenue to transaction-fee revenue was to take place.
Quote
The protocol block size limit was added as a temporary anti-spam measure, not a technocratic market-control measure.
legendary
Activity: 994
Merit: 1035

Yeah better wait until we see how it pans out. No need to give any titchety XTers aneurysms by mention things like block size limit reductions   Smiley

 Pieter Wuille was skeptical at first as well, but since there is are plenty of optimizations coming out such as improvements to the relay network this gave him confidence to recommend SW.

With SW coming to the testnet this month and a softfork taking up to a year to roll out I am concerned about the timing of all these matters. The community should have plenty of contingency plans tested and coded in preparation for what could be a wild year. I almost hope there isn't a disinflationary bubble because we do need a bit more time to flesh out more solutions.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
So reduce the actual block limit to 500KByte? (effective max 2 MB).

I was thinking 1 MB normal blocks + 1 MB witness. Apparently most transactions are nowadays about 50% witness data, so we'd be able to pretty much fill up both the normal blocks and the "witness blocks".

You're right that typical blocks would only fill 1-2 MB of witness data (2-3 MB total) with sipa's proposal, so maybe it's OK. But I'm not 100% sure yet.

Yeah better wait until we see how it pans out. No need to give any titchety XTers aneurysms by mention things like block size limit reductions   Smiley
administrator
Activity: 5222
Merit: 13032
So reduce the actual block limit to 500KByte? (effective max 2 MB).

I was thinking 1 MB normal blocks + 1 MB witness. Apparently most transactions are nowadays about 50% witness data, so we'd be able to pretty much fill up both the normal blocks and the "witness blocks".

You're right that typical blocks would only fill 1-2 MB of witness data (2-3 MB total) with sipa's proposal, so maybe it's OK. But I'm not 100% sure yet.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
Finally cleans up issues with signature TX malleability, makes fraud proofs viable for real SPV security and incidentally frees up some capacity breathing room for the near term (2-3MB per block), who could argue against it? Unless there is some truly objectionable security risk discovered it should be soft-forked in ASAP. A few niggles about 'cleanest' way to do that but hopefully that wont turn into too much slide-rule swinging.

One issue is that if the "effective max block size" with SW is 4 MB, then the maximum bandwidth that a full node will have to deal with is the same as if we had a hardfork to 4 MB blocks. With the current way that the network functions and is laid out, this might be too much bandwidth. Maybe this could be somewhat addressed with IBLT, weak blocks, and other tech, but that stuff doesn't exist yet.

I think that there's basically agreement that 2 MB would be safe, though.

So reduce the actual block limit to 500KByte? (effective max 2 MB).

4 MB effective is probably a tad too large for the current bandwidth tech. now but I'm skeptical how often it would be hit in the near term. It is a worst case assuming 1MB of TX data and maximum number of signature data associated (high number of multi-sig, etc) in a single block but needs to be tested out for security implications what effect such a nasty block would have on the system of course.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
So if I'm understading this correctly...

Gavin likes SW but still think XT is the way to go since SW takes too long to implement?


Same response as ever, in other words:

"Great idea guys. Love it. Can I interest you in XT?"
administrator
Activity: 5222
Merit: 13032
Finally cleans up issues with signature TX malleability, makes fraud proofs viable for real SPV security and incidentally frees up some capacity breathing room for the near term (2-3MB per block), who could argue against it? Unless there is some truly objectionable security risk discovered it should be soft-forked in ASAP. A few niggles about 'cleanest' way to do that but hopefully that wont turn into too much slide-rule swinging.

One issue is that if the "effective max block size" with SW is 4 MB, then the maximum bandwidth that a full node will have to deal with is the same as if we had a hardfork to 4 MB blocks. With the current way that the network functions and is laid out, this might be too much bandwidth. Maybe this could be somewhat addressed with IBLT, weak blocks, and other tech, but that stuff doesn't exist yet.

I think that there's basically agreement that 2 MB would be safe, though.
hero member
Activity: 687
Merit: 500

If you follow bitcoin-dev mailing list segwit is being treated as a done deal. BIP within a month and soft fork soon after review.

So if I'm understading this correctly...

Gavin likes SW but still think XT is the way to go since SW takes too long to implement?
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo

If you follow bitcoin-dev mailing list segwit is being treated as a done deal. BIP within a month and soft fork soon after review.

Finally cleans up issues with signature TX malleability, makes fraud proofs viable for real SPV security and incidentally frees up some capacity breathing room for the near term (2-3MB per block), who could argue against it? Unless there is some truly objectionable security risk discovered it should be soft-forked in ASAP. A few niggles about 'cleanest' way to do that but hopefully that wont turn into too much slide-rule swinging.
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1164

If you follow bitcoin-dev mailing list segwit is being treated as a done deal. BIP within a month and soft fork soon after review.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
looks like the zarathrusta nym is ...

"zarathrusta"??

You never heard of Zarathustra? "I have letters that even the blind will be able to see"

http://4umi.com/nietzsche/antichrist/62
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
looks like the zarathrusta nym is on the final flaming arc of infamous derp glory ... soon to be never seen again ... die quietly in embarassment friend
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
Dearest Carlton, I have never *ever* said larger blocks is the only way. I have categorically stated the opposite on many occasions. Which begs the question are you even listening?
That's not what "begging the question" means. If you wanted to say he was begging the question here, then you could have said, "You asserted that I said these things, but that begs the question; Did I actually say these things?"
That might be spurious on other grounds (Was he actually saying that you said that?), but it would at least be an accurate usage of the Begging the Question Fallacy.
That is, unless you are actually trying to argue that the point Carlton has been trying to make is that he was listening.
Anyway... Carry on.

In response to Carlton saying I said something, I tell Carlton I have not. I then tell him I said something else. The implication here is that he is not listening. This may beg the question "are you even listening?"

be nice bett, he's only trying to help you  Cool
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
Dearest Carlton, I have never *ever* said larger blocks is the only way. I have categorically stated the opposite on many occasions. Which begs the question are you even listening?
That's not what "begging the question" means. If you wanted to say he was begging the question here, then you could have said, "You asserted that I said these things, but that begs the question; Did I actually say these things?"
That might be spurious on other grounds (Was he actually saying that you said that?), but it would at least be an accurate usage of the Begging the Question Fallacy.
That is, unless you are actually trying to argue that the point Carlton has been trying to make is that he was listening.
Anyway... Carry on.

In response to Carlton saying I said something, I tell Carlton I have not. I then tell him I said something else. The implication here is that he is not listening. This may beg the question "are you even listening?"

legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
Allow me to remind you that you're currently replying in a thread titled "Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud)"  Roll Eyes Kind of generalizing, no?

Maybe we should make the title equal to the length and content of the thread itself, then every nuance/minority can be adequately represented
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