Pages:
Author

Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 53. (Read 378992 times)

legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
That would be a more interesting discussion to be having but all I see every day are polarised opinions (presented as fact). Exaggeration by both camps, hostility, refusal to move from entrenched positions and mischarecterisation of others views.

which is what I was mainly addressing.

Spare me the rest of your platitudes....

You have my sympathies.  sgbett's mutant superpower is the ability to become tremendously and unbearably tedious much faster than a normal human.   Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
We don't know, but (and I believe this to be the case) if the developers are not petulant children arguing on a forum such as this, then its likely that their discussion will revolve around finding the common ground in between opposing opinions. That would be a more interesting discussion to be having but all I see every day are polarised opinions (presented as fact). Exaggeration by both camps, hostility, refusal to move from entrenched positions and mischarecterisation of others views.

Maybe you're not looking hard enough?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3uzwgs/scaling_bitcoin_2_in_just_5_days/

You're fooling yourself if you expect productive development to be held "on a forum such as this"

I notice alot of people using this forum as a platform to berate it. I also notice that alot of people are using this forum as a platform to advertise alternative forums.

Kind of an inconsistency between what these two groups are saying and what they're doing: Why do they keep coming back here if bitcointalk.org is held in such contempt?

Meh, if only they would stick with their VERified Kingdom. There surely must be as much freedom as idiocy there.

As ICEBREAkER aptly predicted let's just say they are having their their own freedom of speech problems  Cheesy Cheesy

https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinxt/comments/3uyyfx/i_didnt_think_this_day_would_come_but_ive_been/

The Gavinista shitlords didn't anticipate NotXT (despite my warning of weaponized version signals).

And they didn't anticipate NotGavinistas emulating their assclownery within the tight parameters of Poe's law, nor the chaos that would ensue from their being unable to tell genuine-but-dim friends from fake-but-clever foes.

Let's all brigade their rump subs and forums, acting really stupid (but not too stupid) by constantly reposting debunked FUD about RBF, CLTV, Peter (The) Todd, Blockstream, Theymos, and Sensor Ships.  Then throw tantrums when our shitposts are moderated...

Oh wait, we're already doing that...   Cool Cool Cool


EDIT: ZOMG THE PRECIOUS 'FREE STOLFI' POST!  ITS BEEN THREADLOCKED!!1!  ZOMG SENSOR SHIPS SENSORING MUH SUB!!!  WORSE THAN A POL POT-STALIN-MAO-SERPENTOR-HILLARY HYBRID1!!1

https://np.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3us1kl/free_jstolfi/
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
I think the massive hypocrisy displayed by both 'sides' is embarrassing. Each accuses the other of objectionable conduct, seemingly oblivious that they themselves are doing the very same thing.

They are the petulant children I am referring to, and they are not 'this forum'. I stopped posting on this thread because I didn't like the place I was being taken. I've started posting again because after reflecting I think I can avoid making the same mistakes.

Isn't that both an exaggeration on one hand and misdirection in another? I caught you telling the Gold Collapsing thread "Relax, let it happen" re: XT, which I think minimally placed you in the position of all the other ignorant coercers.

It's also interesting to note that you are willing to personalise your arguments in much the same way that you simultaneously cite as a mark of disrepute, and yet don't have the courage to talk to the objects of your contempt directly. You'll notice I'm talking directly to you now, about your cynical, hypocritical petulance.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
If anything we should get a clearer idea of where this is going this weekend but all the while Bitcoin continues to be awesome and has no foreseeable obstruction in sight. .  Grin

Lets hope so. It would be pretty annoying if something that could have been easily averted proved to be problem! Wink
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
We don't know, but (and I believe this to be the case) if the developers are not petulant children arguing on a forum such as this, then its likely that their discussion will revolve around finding the common ground in between opposing opinions. That would be a more interesting discussion to be having but all I see every day are polarised opinions (presented as fact). Exaggeration by both camps, hostility, refusal to move from entrenched positions and mischarecterisation of others views.

Maybe you're not looking hard enough?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3uzwgs/scaling_bitcoin_2_in_just_5_days/

You're fooling yourself if you expect productive development to be held "on a forum such as this"
Your response implies that you thought I said the opposite. Is that intentional, or just a genuine mistake?

You also wrote

That would be a more interesting discussion to be having but all I see every day are polarised opinions (presented as fact). Exaggeration by both camps, hostility, refusal to move from entrenched positions and mischarecterisation of others views.

which is what I was mainly addressing.

Spare me the rest of your platitudes....

The second sentence was referring to much of the discussion on this thread. This was not clear and I apologise for the confusion this may have caused.

(EDIT: so we agree then? the developers aren't arguing like the petulant children on this forum and will find common ground)

I agree.

If anything we should get a clearer idea of where this is going this weekend but all the while Bitcoin continues to be awesome and has no foreseeable obstruction in sight. .  Grin
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
We don't know, but (and I believe this to be the case) if the developers are not petulant children arguing on a forum such as this, then its likely that their discussion will revolve around finding the common ground in between opposing opinions. That would be a more interesting discussion to be having but all I see every day are polarised opinions (presented as fact). Exaggeration by both camps, hostility, refusal to move from entrenched positions and mischarecterisation of others views.

Maybe you're not looking hard enough?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3uzwgs/scaling_bitcoin_2_in_just_5_days/

You're fooling yourself if you expect productive development to be held "on a forum such as this"
Your response implies that you thought I said the opposite. Is that intentional, or just a genuine mistake?

You also wrote

That would be a more interesting discussion to be having but all I see every day are polarised opinions (presented as fact). Exaggeration by both camps, hostility, refusal to move from entrenched positions and mischarecterisation of others views.

which is what I was mainly addressing.

Spare me the rest of your platitudes....

The second sentence was referring to much of the discussion on this thread. This was not clear and I apologise for the confusion this may have caused.

(EDIT: so we agree then? the developers aren't arguing like the petulant children on this forum and will find common ground)
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
We don't know, but (and I believe this to be the case) if the developers are not petulant children arguing on a forum such as this, then its likely that their discussion will revolve around finding the common ground in between opposing opinions. That would be a more interesting discussion to be having but all I see every day are polarised opinions (presented as fact). Exaggeration by both camps, hostility, refusal to move from entrenched positions and mischarecterisation of others views.

Maybe you're not looking hard enough?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3uzwgs/scaling_bitcoin_2_in_just_5_days/

You're fooling yourself if you expect productive development to be held "on a forum such as this"

I notice alot of people using this forum as a platform to berate it. I also notice that alot of people are using this forum as a platform to advertise alternative forums.

Kind of an inconsistency between what these two groups are saying and what they're doing: Why do they keep coming back here if bitcointalk.org is held in such contempt?

Meh, if only they would stick with their VERified Kingdom. There surely must be as much freedom as idiocy there.

Starting to be a bit bored with the rhetoric manoeuvres that implies exactly what they are imposing here with their "opinions stated as facts".
If you can call it opinions though.. Magic futuristic numbers and rainbow mass projections imho.

Clearly THE NETWORK has consensually rejected XT and BIP101.

At this point, I wonder what is the percentage of shills vs idiots amongst these forkers. (oh and yes that's an opinion, and a fact)


I post here because I think it is a good place to discuss bitcoin. On the whole I like the community. I don't subscribe to the belief that there is rampant censorship either here or on r/bitcoin. I think that all that commentary is cliched nonsense from people who think they are the first person to ever be butthurt on the internet. I don't think there is some grand conspiracy afoot. Though I do think that different people have different motives. I accept that a person's fundamental beliefs about what bitcoin is/should be may lead them to have different opinions about what is desirable in terms of protocol decisions, or development.

I'm not shill or an "idiot forker" I'm a bitcoin enthusiast who believes that bitcoin can revolutionise 'money' at its very core. I think that is desirable and so I think that anything that furthers that end is also desirable. I believe in the wisdom of the crowd vs governance. I am probably somewhat libertarian in my outlook. I tell you these things so you can know who I am and because I am not afraid of people knowing who I am even though they may try to use that against me.

I think the massive hypocrisy displayed by both 'sides' is embarrassing. Each accuses the other of objectionable conduct, seemingly oblivious that they themselves are doing the very same thing.

They are the petulant children I am referring to, and they are not 'this forum'. I stopped posting on this thread because I didn't like the place I was being taken. I've started posting again because after reflecting I think I can avoid making the same mistakes.

I think the truth will emerge, regardless of hyperbole from either side. I think the wisdom of the crowd will prevail. That does not mean I think the crowd will choose big blocks, it means that I think if bigger blocks are needed then I think that something will happen to ensure that bigger blocks happen. I think if they are not needed, it will be because something happened that obviated any need.

I'm really happy with the way things are going at the moment, despite what anyone else might think on the subject.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
We don't know, but (and I believe this to be the case) if the developers are not petulant children arguing on a forum such as this, then its likely that their discussion will revolve around finding the common ground in between opposing opinions. That would be a more interesting discussion to be having but all I see every day are polarised opinions (presented as fact). Exaggeration by both camps, hostility, refusal to move from entrenched positions and mischarecterisation of others views.

Maybe you're not looking hard enough?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3uzwgs/scaling_bitcoin_2_in_just_5_days/

You're fooling yourself if you expect productive development to be held "on a forum such as this"
Your response implies that you thought I said the opposite. Is that intentional, or just a genuine mistake?

You also wrote

That would be a more interesting discussion to be having but all I see every day are polarised opinions (presented as fact). Exaggeration by both camps, hostility, refusal to move from entrenched positions and mischarecterisation of others views.

which is what I was mainly addressing.

Spare me the rest of your platitudes....
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080

This is a valid point and for once in this debate can lead to a constructive suggestion. If the choice is between contributing 350GB  for a full node and closing the port effectively contributing nothing and one has a 300 GB ISP cap then closing the port becomes the only option, even though the node could very easily contribute say 150 GB. There is a very disturbing all or nothing approach to this debate that leads to a choice between two bad options at both extremes.

When I was running a node with an open port I managed to keep the bandwidth down by various means, such as limiting the number of connections and implementing bandwidth caps on my upload bandwidth.  I tried to regulate things so that I was uploading about 1.5 x the amount I was downloading. I believe the most I ever used was about 100 GB/month combined upload and download.  (I ceased running an open port following two massive DDoS attacks which took down my ISP.)

From a little watching of my connection activity, I observed that a lot of the upload bandwidth was loading older blocks.  A limit on bandwidth provided for uploading older blocks would certainly help.  With some creative effort it might be possible to devise a scheme whereby full nodes could recoup some of their operating costs by charging leechers for services rendered.



There was a pull request in the Bitcoin github to add -dailyuploadlimit in MB as a command line parameter, but I couldn't find it to see if it was merged into the main branch or not. It would mean you could set a 24 hour limit on the amount of historical block data (i.e. anything not the most recent 288 blocks) that other nodes could request.

Not sure what happened with that, looks like it didn't make it into 0.12, but perhaps I'm not looking hard enough. Or maybe there was a good reason not to include it (apparently network message anti-spamming measure did make it into 0.12)
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
And today we are left at a point where the bandwidth consumption of an ordinary Bitcoin node just barely fits within the 350GB/mo transfer cap of a high end, "best available in most of the US" broadband service. We cannot know to what degree the load increase was causative, but none of the metrics had positive outcomes; and this is a reason to proceed only with the greatest care and consideration. Especially against a backdrop where Bitcoin's fundamental utility as a money are being attacked by efforts to regulate people's ability to transact and to blacklist coins; efforts that critically depend on the existence of centralized choke-points which scale beyond the system's scalability necessarily creates.
The problem isn't the block data, which at the present 1 MB limit uses less than 3 percent of a 350 MB/month ISP cap.  The problem is that Bitcoin Core does not provide the instrumentation and tools to allow node operators to manage their bandwidth utilization.  The developers could fix this situation if they were so inclined.   I interpret this situation to a question of priorities and/or lack of network performance expertise on the part of Bitcoin Core developers.
This is a valid point and for once in this debate can lead to a constructive suggestion. If the choice is between contributing 350GB  for a full node and closing the port effectively contributing nothing and one has a 300 GB ISP cap then closing the port becomes the only option, even though the node could very easily contribute say 150 GB. There is a very disturbing all or nothing approach to this debate that leads to a choice between two bad options at both extremes.
Might be worth pointing out here that the later version of XT does have a bandwidth throttling option, which I thought was a nice feature for people that do have data caps.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
We don't know, but (and I believe this to be the case) if the developers are not petulant children arguing on a forum such as this, then its likely that their discussion will revolve around finding the common ground in between opposing opinions. That would be a more interesting discussion to be having but all I see every day are polarised opinions (presented as fact). Exaggeration by both camps, hostility, refusal to move from entrenched positions and mischarecterisation of others views.

Maybe you're not looking hard enough?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3uzwgs/scaling_bitcoin_2_in_just_5_days/

You're fooling yourself if you expect productive development to be held "on a forum such as this"

I notice alot of people using this forum as a platform to berate it. I also notice that alot of people are using this forum as a platform to advertise alternative forums.

Kind of an inconsistency between what these two groups are saying and what they're doing: Why do they keep coming back here if bitcointalk.org is held in such contempt?

Meh, if only they would stick with their VERified Kingdom. There surely must be as much freedom as idiocy there.

As ICEBREAkER aptly predicted let's just say they are having their their own freedom of speech problems  Cheesy Cheesy

https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinxt/comments/3uyyfx/i_didnt_think_this_day_would_come_but_ive_been/


SPLITTER!!1 Grin
sr. member
Activity: 278
Merit: 254

This is a valid point and for once in this debate can lead to a constructive suggestion. If the choice is between contributing 350GB  for a full node and closing the port effectively contributing nothing and one has a 300 GB ISP cap then closing the port becomes the only option, even though the node could very easily contribute say 150 GB. There is a very disturbing all or nothing approach to this debate that leads to a choice between two bad options at both extremes.

When I was running a node with an open port I managed to keep the bandwidth down by various means, such as limiting the number of connections and implementing bandwidth caps on my upload bandwidth.  I tried to regulate things so that I was uploading about 1.5 x the amount I was downloading. I believe the most I ever used was about 100 GB/month combined upload and download.  (I ceased running an open port following two massive DDoS attacks which took down my ISP.)

From a little watching of my connection activity, I observed that a lot of the upload bandwidth was loading older blocks.  A limit on bandwidth provided for uploading older blocks would certainly help.  With some creative effort it might be possible to devise a scheme whereby full nodes could recoup some of their operating costs by charging leechers for services rendered.

hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
We don't know, but (and I believe this to be the case) if the developers are not petulant children arguing on a forum such as this, then its likely that their discussion will revolve around finding the common ground in between opposing opinions. That would be a more interesting discussion to be having but all I see every day are polarised opinions (presented as fact). Exaggeration by both camps, hostility, refusal to move from entrenched positions and mischarecterisation of others views.

Maybe you're not looking hard enough?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3uzwgs/scaling_bitcoin_2_in_just_5_days/

You're fooling yourself if you expect productive development to be held "on a forum such as this"

I notice alot of people using this forum as a platform to berate it. I also notice that alot of people are using this forum as a platform to advertise alternative forums.

Kind of an inconsistency between what these two groups are saying and what they're doing: Why do they keep coming back here if bitcointalk.org is held in such contempt?

Meh, if only they would stick with their VERified Kingdom. There surely must be as much freedom as idiocy there.

As ICEBREAkER aptly predicted let's just say they are having their their own freedom of speech problems  Cheesy Cheesy

https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinxt/comments/3uyyfx/i_didnt_think_this_day_would_come_but_ive_been/
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
We don't know, but (and I believe this to be the case) if the developers are not petulant children arguing on a forum such as this, then its likely that their discussion will revolve around finding the common ground in between opposing opinions. That would be a more interesting discussion to be having but all I see every day are polarised opinions (presented as fact). Exaggeration by both camps, hostility, refusal to move from entrenched positions and mischarecterisation of others views.

Maybe you're not looking hard enough?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3uzwgs/scaling_bitcoin_2_in_just_5_days/

You're fooling yourself if you expect productive development to be held "on a forum such as this"

I'm going to clarify what I posted because I don't really understand why you have responded the way you have.

"petulant children arguing on a forum such as this" refers to the people on this forum that argue like petulant children

"but, if the developers are not" is a clause, which is prefixed by the statement "We don't know," which speaks to the nature of truth - such that unless you are one of the developers then you can't really know for sure however I included a subclass in parenthesis (and I believe this to be the case) to indicate that whilst I may not know I believe it to be the case (that "the developers are not").

You can re-arrange this sentence thusly "I believe the developers are not petulant children arguing on a forum such as this. Though, it is not possible for me to know that is a fact." however one can never really know". The reason I didn't write it in this order is because the words at the beginning of the sentence (comment on nature of truth) are less important and it is in the readers nature to focus on the later part of complex clause than the earlier part. This is why the last part of the sentence is drawing attention to the fact that people on this forum argue like petulant children. This is a contrast to to what the developers are (hopefully) doing. The very last part of that first sentence was the most important part though ", then its likely that their discussion will revolve around finding the common ground in between opposing opinions."

That's the bit i really wanted to stress, which is why its at the end.

Your response implies that you thought I said the opposite. Is that intentional, or just a genuine mistake?
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
We don't know, but (and I believe this to be the case) if the developers are not petulant children arguing on a forum such as this, then its likely that their discussion will revolve around finding the common ground in between opposing opinions. That would be a more interesting discussion to be having but all I see every day are polarised opinions (presented as fact). Exaggeration by both camps, hostility, refusal to move from entrenched positions and mischarecterisation of others views.

Maybe you're not looking hard enough?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3uzwgs/scaling_bitcoin_2_in_just_5_days/

You're fooling yourself if you expect productive development to be held "on a forum such as this"

I notice alot of people using this forum as a platform to berate it. I also notice that alot of people are using this forum as a platform to advertise alternative forums.

Kind of an inconsistency between what these two groups are saying and what they're doing: Why do they keep coming back here if bitcointalk.org is held in such contempt?

Meh, if only they would stick with their VERified Kingdom. There surely must be as much freedom as idiocy there.

Starting to be a bit bored with the rhetoric manoeuvres.

Clearly the network has consensually rejected XT and BIP101.

At this point, I wonder what is the percentage of shills vs idiots amongst these forkers. (oh and yes that's an opinion, and a fact)

legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team

And today we are left at a point where the bandwidth consumption of an ordinary Bitcoin node just barely fits within the 350GB/mo transfer cap of a high end, "best available in most of the US" broadband service. We cannot know to what degree the load increase was causative, but none of the metrics had positive outcomes; and this is a reason to proceed only with the greatest care and consideration. Especially against a backdrop where Bitcoin's fundamental utility as a money are being attacked by efforts to regulate people's ability to transact and to blacklist coins; efforts that critically depend on the existence of centralized choke-points which scale beyond the system's scalability necessarily creates.



The problem isn't the block data, which at the present 1 MB limit uses less than 3 percent of a 350 MB/month ISP cap.  The problem is that Bitcoin Core does not provide the instrumentation and tools to allow node operators to manage their bandwidth utilization.  The developers could fix this situation if they were so inclined.   I interpret this situation to a question of priorities and/or lack of network performance expertise on the part of Bitcoin Core developers.


This is a valid point and for once in this debate can lead to a constructive suggestion. If the choice is between contributing 350GB  for a full node and closing the port effectively contributing nothing and one has a 300 GB ISP cap then closing the port becomes the only option, even though the node could very easily contribute say 150 GB. There is a very disturbing all or nothing approach to this debate that leads to a choice between two bad options at both extremes.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
We don't know, but (and I believe this to be the case) if the developers are not petulant children arguing on a forum such as this, then its likely that their discussion will revolve around finding the common ground in between opposing opinions. That would be a more interesting discussion to be having but all I see every day are polarised opinions (presented as fact). Exaggeration by both camps, hostility, refusal to move from entrenched positions and mischarecterisation of others views.

Maybe you're not looking hard enough?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3uzwgs/scaling_bitcoin_2_in_just_5_days/

You're fooling yourself if you expect productive development to be held "on a forum such as this"

I notice alot of people using this forum as a platform to berate it. I also notice that alot of people are using this forum as a platform to advertise alternative forums.

Kind of an inconsistency between what these two groups are saying and what they're doing: Why do they keep coming back here if bitcointalk.org is held in such contempt?
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
...
Satoshi is kind of analogous to the Wright Brothers, but these BIP101 clowns foolishly think they're bringing bitcoin into the jet age---but without the highly rigorous testing and design standards such a feat requires. BIP101 seems more like the infamous Spruce Goose to me.

The various exponential bloat strategies are sort of like 'bringing Bitcoin into the jet age' in the same way as the Darwin Awards guy who strapped a surplus JATO unit onto the top of his car.  In this case it's kind of like Mike Hearn had the idea but Gavin was to pilot the thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g9ssQSV6UA

hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
We don't know, but (and I believe this to be the case) if the developers are not petulant children arguing on a forum such as this, then its likely that their discussion will revolve around finding the common ground in between opposing opinions. That would be a more interesting discussion to be having but all I see every day are polarised opinions (presented as fact). Exaggeration by both camps, hostility, refusal to move from entrenched positions and mischarecterisation of others views.

Maybe you're not looking hard enough?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3uzwgs/scaling_bitcoin_2_in_just_5_days/

You're fooling yourself if you expect productive development to be held "on a forum such as this"
Pages:
Jump to: